Tuesday, July 9, 2013

Instant analysis: Phillies 4, Nats 2

USA Today Sports Images
Game in a nutshell: After a lackluster offensive showing last night against John Lannan, the Nationals hoped to get back on track tonight against Cole Hamels. But the veteran Phillies left-hander was masterful, allowing only Jayson Werth's solo homer in the top of the second, finishing his night with a flourish by pitching out of an eighth-inning jam. Rookie Taylor Jordan again was solid but faded late, allowing three runs in the sixth (one of them unearned because of an Adam LaRoche throwing error). The Nationals couldn't mount a late rally, and so they dropped their second straight in Philly after coming to town on a four-game winning streak. They're back to two games over the .500 mark, and their lead over the Phillies for second place in the NL East is down to 1 1/2 games.

Hitting lowlight: They didn't get many chances against Hamels, but they definitely squandered their best chance. Trailing by three runs in the eighth, the Nationals loaded the bases on singles by Scott Hairston and Ian Desmond and a walk by Bryce Harper. Charlie Manuel walked slowly to the mound, ostensibly to give his starter the hook. But Hamels talked his way back in, setting the stage for some high drama. Unfortunately, the drama resulted in tears from the Nats dugout. Ryan Zimmerman struck out on three pitches, the last one a high, 92-mph fastball. Werth then battled his old teammate to a 3-2 count, but with the crowd roaring, skied a flyball to the warning track in right-center to end the rally.

Pitching lowlight: Though he has shown some promise in his three big-league starts so far, Jordan still has a way to go at this level. He has particularly struggled when facing an opposing lineup the third time around, as was the case tonight. With the game tied 1-1 entering the sixth, Jordan took the mound with nobody warming in the Nationals bullpen. The rookie immediately gave up back-to-back singles, then was victimized by LaRoche's throwing error, then ultimately served up a two-run double to Michael Young before Davey Johnson could signal for Craig Stammen out of the pen. Obviously, Jordan (who began the season at Class A) has been put in a tough spot. But if he's going to stick up here, he's going to have to prove he can complete six innings.

Key stat: Though they've averaged 6 runs over their last 10 games, the Nationals have been all-or-nothing at the plate. Their game-by-game run totals: 13, 10, 0, 1, 8, 8, 5, 11, 2, 2.

Up next: Game 3 of this four-game series will see Gio Gonzalez on the mound for the Nationals against Cliff Lee, the third straight lefty to start for the Phillies. First pitch at Citizens Bank Park is at 7:05 p.m.

199 comments:

paul brandt said...

same ol, same ol, very disappointing, not much more to say and I am usually an optimist.

William O. Douglas Loeffler said...

Sorry, Mark. Jordan is Cy Young compared to Dan Haren....

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

Should've been 3-0 to Hairston. Changed the next pitch by Bastardo.

BigCat said...

Three steps forward....two steps back.......sigh

NatsLady said...

The defense has to improve. That is all.

mick said...

guess i was wrong about Nats bats coming alive tonight...did not know Hammels was 4-11..ouch

Sunshine_Bobby_Carpenter_Is_Too_Pessimistic_For_Me said...

Another four-aspirin night.

David Proctor said...

2 steps forward, 1 step back is fine. That's 2/3 and a .666 winning percentage. Win the next two and all is forgotten. Lose the next two and we have a problem.

William O. Douglas Loeffler said...

The Nats' bats are like an oasis to parched-or-wins pitchers all over major league baseball....

BigCat said...

Ray Knight again talkin about the hitters poor approach.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

Nats had Hamels on the ropes and RZim and Werth didn't get it done. Defense let TJord down. That's the difference.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

RISP Phillies 4 for 17 Nats 0 for 7.

10 more chances.

I know 99% disagree with , as most think the hitting coach is not responsible for lack of hitting.

Ou might be right, so canning hin would make no difference. But what if I am right getting a new coach might help, and can',t hurt.

Ray Knight can see the problem and expkains lije I have tried how to correct.

Eck seems clueless how to correct. Trade knight and. Eck's job and see what happend

mick said...

David...exactly.... can you imagine if that happens and say Nats lose 2 to Marlins, they would be 2 under 500 at break

paul brandt said...

someone asked this yesterday or so and it's a good question: do we have a Lannan type left-handed coach throwing BP before the games we face left handers?

If we don't, it's in-excusable.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Just fire Eck hire Knight.

jeffwx said...

3 steps forward.2 back =.600
still good
bad ball/strike calls.
do not like Hamels.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Never seen lefty throw batting practice.

mick said...

Manassas Nats' Fan

I do not blame Eck..I am becoming convince that the Nats do not listen to him an are going it alone, if that is true, that is unacceptable from a professional stand point

William O. Douglas Loeffler said...

What is Ray Knight going to tell them that they don't already know? He was far from a great player, even though he had his moments. The season is well over half over. If our guys simply don't know how to hit, then you would be better off hiring a Macumba practitioner than putting faith in a different hitting coach....

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Ray is not quite right Padres ERA just behind Philkies

JaneB said...

Ugh. There's no pitcher and no team I like less. I wish we'd won.

Is Jordan just not ready for the stamina it takes to go six innings? Why does he always get knocked around after a few innings?

Drat drat drat. I hate Colbert.

jeffwx said...

Silver Fox...brutally direct

David Proctor said...

Werth did all he could. He hit a home run and battled big time in the 8th inning. I don't have a problem with his AB. Zim struck out on 3 pitches. I'm a Zim defender and will still defend him...but there's no defending that. You have to put together a better AB than that. Plain and simple.

mick said...

3 runs in 2 nights verse a sub 500 squad with your guys back is a little discouraging right now

mick said...

sorry..4 runs

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Maybe he ride their buts to remind them the plan. He said a few weeks ago you need to talk during game. Eck sits no where near anyone. That is not coaching.

Secret wasian man said...

WODL. Ray is ripping the hitting. I'm glad. It's awful. Mick zimms bat with bases loaded was the bat of a quitter. Ok so the ump hosed you. Don't pout about it.

William O. Douglas Loeffler said...

Suzuki needs to sit.

mick said...

effwx said...
Silver Fox...brutally direct

indeed he is

Alphabet Soup Erik said...

Phillies will end up with a better record than the Nats...just not a good team.

nats guy said...

When they've played quality teams they've looked like this all season. When they've played bad teams like the marlins and Padres they've looked like Murderers Row. Hmmmmm!!!!

What could that mean? Hmmmmmm!!!!!!

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

The young double landed in front of tge track. Talk about playing shallow Harper was imitating Paul Blair.

Secret wasian man said...

Ghost at least WERTh battled. Ry Zimm needs to open his eyes.

mick said...

Wasian...I have to admit...Zim's at bat and the fact he is the face of the franchise makes it really tough to remain up beat... that at bat is a moment we may look back on at season's end and realize some unfortunate facts

Section 222 said...

Two steps forward, two steps back. That's a .500 team. It's sad because there's so much potential here. This was a winnable game though. One more key hit in the 8th or one less batter faced by Taylor Jordan in the 6th. Sorry but I still think Davey should have pulled Jordan after the second run scored. It was time.

Tomorrow's another day. We've got Gio on mound. Unfortunately, they have Cliff Lee.

William O. Douglas Loeffler said...

The hitting should be ripped, but anyone who thinks that changing the batting coach is going to have any effect should just find a rabbit's foot or some other thing to assuage them. It is very difficult to change batter's hitting techniques. That was one of the key themes in Moneyball, maybe overemphasized, but you see guys like Werth and Rendon, who know how to work an at bat. Bryce is learning. Laroche and Zimmerman are only so-so, and Desmond is not good at all. I am tired of hearing people weep for Desmond not being in the All Star game. He is sort of qualified and that is it. Nothing more, and I like him a lot, but the stats speak for themselves.

Secret wasian man said...

Yes mick and ALR not hitting either. Big Money players. Small results.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Here is how stats can be deceiving.

Numbers say Haren pitched better than Jordan.

mick said...

sec222


this is game Nats need, Lee or not...a contender has to win tomorrow's game...there is no sugar coating this, they have to win tomorrow

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Would it hurt? I doubt it so I would do it.

jeffwx said...

I read the news today, oh boy
about a lucky man who lost the game
and though the news was rather sad
I just had to laugh
I saw the pitchers track

Secret wasian man said...

Desi not an allstar.

mick said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mick said...

William O. Douglas Loeffler

the irony is that they do not listen to their coach, maybe that is the problem all along

who knows???

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Gio needs to win and will. 3-2

David Proctor said...

They do not HAVE to win tomorrow. It would be very nice to win tomorrow. I want to win tomorrow because losing a series to the Phils makes me sick. But there's no such thing as a must win game in July.

paul brandt said...

come on, be positive...Braves are not that good, neither are we but it can't get much worse...we are way too inconsistent, someone needs to throw some chairs or eat someones face to get these guys jacked up.

Dick Motta: "The 'opera' isn't over 'til the fat lady sings"

plenty of time but not happy about losing the first two with Cliff Lee going tomorrow.

mick said...

jeffwx....lol

but trying to remain positive, I prefer

Everythin', everythin', everythin's gonna be alright this mornin'
Ooh yeah, whoaw
Now when I was a young boy, at the age of five
My mother said the Nats was, gonna be the greatest team alive

jeffwx said...

Elyssan fields forever

umping is easy with eyes closed
misunderstanding all you see

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

I dont for sure, but I know people get canned all the time if the people tgey are responsible for keep not producing.

DJB said...

It's all on the middle of the lineup. Unless we can address the weak approach by Zimmerman and LaRoche, and to a lesser extent Desmond, this season is done. It probably is anyway, but it is clear that the weakness lies in the middle of the lineup. Desmond is not good enough to be hitting second, and his overly aggressive approach is the primary reason he didn't make the All Star game.

mick said...

David...maybe your right, but I respectfully disagree

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

I said need not must .

Every game you can never make up, so limit number of losses all the time.

jeffwx said...

well, gio is pitching here tomorrow,
aint that good news
man, aint that news

Joe Seamhead said...

Suzuki has to make the play at the plate. Desmond/LaRoche between you have to get that out. Worst of all? Bash Span all you want for his 0-4 last night, but the ball to center was a play Hairston doesn't make and 2 runs score. Span makes the catch 999 out of 1000 times. Glad Scott got two hits, but his play in CF was the difference in the final score.
Beat me up, but poor outfielding will cost you, IMHO.

mick said...

you da man jeffwx!!!

David Proctor said...

Harper was in CF, not Hairston...

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

I hate losing each and everytime we lose, but I hate the poor hitting approach than I do losing.

William O. Douglas Loeffler said...

Rye grass ergot anyone?

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

We have tge division in our back pocket.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

You mean Harper. Hairston was in left.

mick said...

I got $20 in my pocket...oops, I meant, I got the division in my pocket

ha ha

jeffwx said...

Mick, we should join the band.
and give Davey a bat.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Ask him about Eck.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Davey hit pretty well.

mick said...

jeffwx


you got it!!!!

paul brandt said...

Joe, huh? Hairston was not playing CF, Harper was.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Paul he was told 3 times, but he is right, i think Dpan might have cauggt.

paul brandt said...

it looks like Davey is checking out to me...he does not like post-game interviews...uggghhhh...good night.

mick said...

did you say centerfield?


Oh, put me in, Coach - I'm ready to play today;
Put me in, Coach - I'm ready to play today;
Look at me, I can be Centerfield.





its Insider's music night

ha ha

mick said...

it will be rugby songs soon

ha ha

Joe Seamhead said...

Sorry, you're right. I had had a gassy brain moment. Still, Span makes that catch.

mick said...

I know a bear that you all know
Yogi, Yogi..

ha ha

ok. enough Mick

Unknown said...

A few things ....

1] The Nationals simply can't hit lefties this year and even if they do make it into the playoffs they are not going to go far.

2] I loved the Denard Span trade when it happened. That said, we've been waiting for nine years to have a fleet, defensive center fielder and now that we have one I'm thinking I like the idea of having a masher out there. Alex Meyer may have been too much.

3] Dan Haren. Didn't see that coming.

4] Ross Detwiler. The team kept trying to change his mechanics so that he wouldn't hurt himself and he wouldn't lose his release point. They ended up letting him be "him" and they may have been right in the first place.

Without five studs in the rotation, this is going to be an 85-90 win team.
>LaRoche is a .260-22-85 guy now, which is good when you add in his glove but bad when the other guys aren't hitting.
>Jason Werth is at best a .275-18-60 hitter at this point in his career with a good glove, again, good enough if the other guys are hitting. But with his contract, the team can't upgrade there either.
> The middle infield, Desmond and Rendon, could average .290-25-90 for the next five or six years.
>Zimmerman is a wonderful player but I don't think he's going to "blossom" into that superstar we thought he might become.

I was here for that 33-year lapse, so no complaints from me. I love the Nationals.

But it might not be the "for the next decade" team we thought.

Hope I'm wrong.

William O. Douglas Loeffler said...

No way to know who catches what when they are not playing because you don't know where the player was positioned and by whose authority. Harper is taller, has longer strides and arguably covers more ground than Span. Span may read the ball off the bat better but who knows.... I do like the platooning in Center and I think Span should only lead off against righties.....

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

I as said several times in the last week i would love for tge head of umps to sit with me an explain why tge strike zone moves so much in a game.

Not just this game, but most games mist night.

Just how hard is it to call a constant strike ball or strike innings 1 to the end of the game.

The strike zine should't be that hsrd.

Would love to over lay pitches by each pitcher to see how different it is.

I know the umps think they sre fine, but they as a group reaaly poor

mick said...

unknown

you just scared me...I do hope you are wrong...i suspect there may be some truth to your post so that is why it is important good decisions are made in the future

jeffwx said...

It's a real nowhere team
living in a nowhere dream
making all its nowhere schemes
for nobody

doesn't have a way to hit
might as well just swing and miss
making all its nowhere trades
for nobody

good night, good bo

Unknown said...

Boswell suggested a Bryan Price trade the other day.

I'd give up:
* Danny Espinosa
* Steve Lombardozzi
* Tyler Moore
* Ross Detwiler
* Two of the upper level guys on the farm (out of the top 10).

May be a lot, but as we all talked about last year, that window of opportunity is short. I wouldn't wait.

Unknown said...

Zim has to go. He is the Nomar of the Nats. Just good enough to always come up short. Notice how the walk offs have disappeared now that the games truly matter. No playoffs and no World Series until he is gone. July 31 to Yankees would be ideal.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Not going to srgue that tonight.

mick said...

jeffwx you are rolling tonight dude!!!

William O. Douglas Loeffler said...

Actually, wasn't Nomar a multiple time All Star?

Ryan made the team one time.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Do you mean David Price?

Joe Seamhead said...

OK, I made a screw up when I said "his" play in CF, instead of "the" play in CF. Skewer me. My point that I was trying to make was that 3 defensive mistakes cost us this game as much as the lack of timely hitting,and poor outfielding kills you.

BxJaycobb said...

The whole overly aggressive swinging at the first pitch crap isn't Eck. It's Davey. He loves swinging for the fences. He loves swinging to pull the ball. He poo-poos letting the ball travel.....in other words, universally acknowledged healthy offensive technique. You can't succeed in the major leagues swinging at three of the first four pitches u see no matter what. it's telling that we never walk. This team doesn't have the power to play for long balls. Just absolute horrible horrible offense. We all thought a run was coming here. This is the first night all season that I'm sure the seasons over. Because you can see that the offensive output was simply a mirage against heinous pitching from brewers and padres. We have some good hitters on this team. We need a different hitting coach. And it's total crap that everybody is protecting Eck. You don't get to have a team be at the bottom of the major leagues in every hitting category with the players we have. Sorry. This is the major leagues. It's been 3+ months. It's time for something else. Get rid of the guy.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Nomar 6 time all star.

William O. Douglas Loeffler said...

F.P. noted tonight that center field is the safest place for Harper to be playing and also the place in the outfield where he wants to play....

David Proctor said...

Wily Peralta is one out away from throwing a complete game shutout against the Reds. It ain't just us.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

I knew what you meant and I agree.

Actuall Bryce playing left center on Utley was poor on Torrasco. Had he been play straight away no way it would be a double.

Torrasco placed him in unusual spots.

William O. Douglas Loeffler said...

Then get rid of Davey if you want to send a message.

mick said...

David...that means Nats are still 4 back of wild card

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Davey hired Eck because he believes same as Davey.

Nother reason for Rizzo to fire him giving a mrssage to Davey.

mick said...

So I depart here tonight singing...

Fly me to the moon
Let me play among the stars
Let me see what spring is like
On a-Jupiter and Mars



night all!!

SCNatsFan said...

You can call it LOD if you want but I just don't see a playoff team, and that doesn't mean I root for he Nats any less or love them any less. The staff is good but gets out pitched too often. This team just finds a way to lose too many nights. Rizzo planned on winning games 2-1 but is losing them 2-1.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

We agreed on that last week. I want the best fielder there. Not the one I want to keep safe.

William O. Douglas Loeffler said...

Maybe the Lerners should fire Rizzo to send a message to the team....

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Going into today Reds have 46 more runs than us.

Eric said...

Ah, it's like a freath of besh air in here tonight. Everyone saking mense and ceeping kool heads. Some veal raluable insights keing bicked around!

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Ok

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Time for the Dodgers DBacks game

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

The division is in the bag.

William O. Douglas Loeffler said...

I find no agreement among people who know baseball as to whether Span is a better center fielder than Harper. What I do find is the agreement that center fielders are most valuable when they swing a good bad. This is not short stop. If Span cannot hit lefties better than .222, we simply cannot have him leading off, so he can either sit or he can move back to 8th in the line-up against lefties and he can work with whatever hitting coach that everyone thinks can work wonders.....

BxJaycobb said...

I would. I'm not a person that calls for coaches heads very often. But I honestly believe that Davey has had it. The guy doesn't appear to have any energy. His in game managing has been truly terrible in my view. He never pulls pitchers mid inning until they give up a bomb or lose the lead. He has inexplicably INEXPLICABLY forgotten about the best weapon in the nats bullpen, Ian Kroll, who has been almost invincible when he has appeared, but for some reason davey trusts abad stammen and storen more (why I have no idea). He calls hit and run plays with not fantastic contact guys up like Ryan Zimmerman, and has mostly been poor on offensive steal/hit and run decisions. And he makes injury/resting people decisions based on toughing it out notions from 1968. He's not their only problem, bt he's stubborn and it looks to me, a little exhausted and spent. We need a new perspective and its really as simple as that.

David Proctor said...

Peralta gets the Complete Game Shutout. Reds lose two in a row to the Brew Crew.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Plsyers are the right players. Coaches sre not demanding excellence, so they can go.

William O. Douglas Loeffler said...

I don't think the managing/general managing has been very good. We simply don't know if Davey is a mere figurehead here or not. He seems to run the clubhouse, but it is hard to believe that he is to blame for some of the strange personnel decisions we have made since 2012....

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Talking purely defensively, do honestly think Harper fields better than Span? I don't think it is close.

Harper by far the better player.

But I am tired of that srgument.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Personnel decisions sre not the managers responibikty at all.

paul brandt said...

Eric, fnuny, i thnik MNF hsa an isseu wthi hsi keyobadr.

#steal/not eat/face...

yikes, bad loss...moving on to tomorrow, not a must win but would be a very much appreciated win vs. Cliff Lee as would the Thursday game...let's split and then sweep the Fish vs. a potential tropical storm/hurricane...may be only 2000 people in the stadium if that happens.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

I have issues with ny corneas a small key board and the g seems to come up even though i think i hit tge h

David Proctor said...

2000 people? Being generous, aren't you, paul?

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

I always predict wins so 5 more wins before the all star game.

Joe Seamhead said...

Manassas, thanks.I watched the game, screwed up on my post.
Bryce will primarily play LF until Werth moves over there, ( soon?),and then Bryce plays RF.

BTW- Eckstein has been the batting coach since 2008. Davey inherited him. Riggs had Eck working the RH batters to go to right and for the LH batters to go to left. Johnson didn't like that philosophy and had them pulling the ball more.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

Suzuki is rested and here for defense.Ugh not a good night.

Eric said...

MNF, to be clear, that comment had absolutely nothing to do with your posting style.

BxJaycobb said...

Leoffler. Nobody said a new hitting coach or manager can work wonders. But this team simply has no plan at the plate. And nobody is making adjustments. That's just not acceptable. The offense is NOT overflowing with talent, as some folks argue, but it should by statistical projections be an average offense. It has been utterly terrible. Terrible. Span rolls over 80 percent of the pitches he see and hits grounders to second base and first. Desmond decides before a pitch comes whether he's going to swing (he's wonderful by the way, I love him, but these are just "approach" critiques to maximize output), Bryce is learning, Werth opens his hips consistently and pulls off so much that his back foot swings around on misses, and is too tentative early in the count)....these are all obvious mechanical and mental approach issues that can be fixed. It's not easy. Baseball is hard. But at what point is it finally fair to critique the coaching? They are accountable too. I mean can u imagine what would be going on in Boston or NY by now? These players are not responding to these folks for whatever reason. A nd another thing. I don't believe in this whole "weighty expectations" stuff but you know what? We really didn't need Davey coming out and crowing about World Series or bust. Didn't help. If things don't turn around something's either gotta be done or they should sell off a few assets at the deadline like Werth (eat most of the contract), storen, detwiler, or Taylor jordan, who is headed for a rotator cuff injury in a year with that delivery

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Which is my big complaint. So in reality it Davey's approach i hate.

Go with the pitch and you will make better contact.

William O. Douglas Loeffler said...

Talk to the Fangraphs people who had Harper with a better range and defensive War than Span. People underestimate the value of an arm in the outfield and overestimate the value of guys who look smooth versus clunky in the outfield, which was another of the themes of Moneyball.

Of course, since Moneyball said that defense was less important than hitting and pitching, the stats guys out to make their names have been trying to prove the premise wrong....

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

When i rerea it I see more g where h belong. Pisses me . I feel like my coaches let me try to pull an outside pitch.

William O. Douglas Loeffler said...

Well, first of all, no one in DC cares that much, compared to other markets. I turn on WFAN every day and they are either talking about RGIII's injury and whose fault it was, or about Dwight Howard....

We are making progress. The area around the ballpark is now safe and green. Soon, we may even have shops and restaurants nearby for those split doubleheaders. In the interim, this is still a Redskins' town....

paul brandt said...

Eric said...
MNF, to be clear, that comment had absolutely nothing to do with your posting style.
July 09, 2013 10:52 PM

yea, MNF, me too...I apologize if that was in-sensitive, love your insight but wanted to apologize.

BxJaycobb said...

I don't think any of us knows how the personnel decisions are made between Rizzo and davey and its presumptuous and silly to speculate. all I'm saying is, I thought Davey was totally satisfactory last year (with some foolish moves that were obviously foolish at the time, but fine), and I cannot recall a single game this year when I thought he out managed the opposition. Not one. That says something. And yes, the pulling everything school of hitting doesn't tend to work great in the major leagues. Not when u combine that with over aggressiveness.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

I am not sold.

Harper's arm is better.

I want him right where strongest arm is needed, but stuck with.

Want the smoothest in center and weakest in left.

Eric said...

I don't see an inordinate amount of effort put into pulling the ball... In fact, I'd say the two most common approaches at the plate are too go with the pitch or to just swing as hard as humanly possible. The latter often drives me bananas late in tight games.

I think the third most common approach is patience, often starting off with a taken first pitch.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

For being the flagship station of Nats the Fan's coverage terrible, but at least tge broadcast is very good and very clrar.

karlkolchak said...

The thing that infuriated me the most about this game was a SECOND major defensive meltdown behind the rookie Jordan. Here's a news flash, if your organization is going to preach "pitch to contact" as its philosophy and you're going to put a raw, sinkerballing rookie out there on the mound, then you have to play some DEFENSE behind him already.

I like what I see from Jordan--to me he looks like a lot like Shawn Hill, who might have been really good had he been able to stay healthy. But at this point I'm starting to think it was Hill who had a better defense to work with.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

No appologize needed.

I have vision problems and the key board on the phone I dont aleays hit tge right key.

BxJaycobb said...

Loeffler. Agreed its a redskins town. My point is I really think that it's odd and unfair that the players all get hammered and the coaches get a pass. They both have a role. But this is not a situation where we don't have the horses in the lineup. We do. they're just hitting bizarrely poorly. When that goes on long enough....and certain characteristics like over aggressiveness are popping up everywhere, then it's fair to ask questions. Daveys response seems to be to shuffle the lineup around. That's just a preposterously simplistic prescription here. Ask for example, why do we get eaten alive by soft tossing lefties? It's not because Laroche and Bryce struggle. It's because no righties NO RIGHTIES can have disciplined at bats where the pitchers don't easily prey on our flailing.

Eric said...

WODL, lately around lunch time all they talk about on 106.7 is the NBA/Wizards draft... drives me crazy.

Eric said...

MNF, my vision is OK, but I regularly hit the wrong keys... Usually I hit b or n when trying to hit the space bar...

But I'm also a somewhat compulsive proofreader... I rarely post without at least spot reading what I've written.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

When they do go with the pitch I dont complain.

Almost all Span's ground out is rolling over on an outside pitch.

Ehen Ian, zim Rendon go to right they are a lot more successful.

BxJaycobb said...

I thought he kid battled and was great. Can't ask for anything more. Dueling with cole hamels. No support. And yes swinging for the fences is a common trait but pulling is there too. Debate span has pulled more balls to the right side than anybody I've ever seen. LaRoche u dont even need to put a soul on the left side of the infield. Bryce tries to pull too often as well, especially against tough lefties throwing him slop on the outer edge (very tough but still). Desi is great, but has been pulling off low strikes on the outer half big time coming out of his shoes. Werth seems to get 90 percent of his hits on grounders in the 5.5 hole. Rendons approach I like (what a surprise...he just arrived!) and is patient.

paul brandt said...

MNF at 11:02pm, thank you but you are due another apology...I should not have assumed it was a keyboard issue but thanks for being so gracious...I feel horrible.

Eric said...

BTW, my flipped around post was more about how in many comments tonight logic seemed to be turned on its head regarding how we should deal with our problems...

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

I am also ADD, and have been dyslexic for almost 60 years a terrible combination.

But love baseball and love talking it.

I sometimes never do see some errors You see.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Most of Spans oulling on the ground so it appesrs worse.

David Proctor said...

I think we still get caught up in too many individual wins and losses. The overall trend over the last couple weeks is positive. And it wasn't all against awful pitchers--Andrew Cashner for example had a 3 ERA. We probably got too excited over those wins and we're probably being too negative now. We just need to continue winning series (in a 4 game series, a split is acceptable, although not ideal).

I'm just going to watch this play out. I don't know what to expect. I'm not going to say the offense is still awful because I saw great signs. I'm not going to say the offense is back, because there are also some red flags. I'm just going to see how it all plays out because I think at this point it's borderline silly to make predictions. The team is too unpredictable.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

I am fine fear not.

We need to win next 5 to get us rolling.

David Proctor said...

Pirates have lost 4 in a row. Is their annual collapse beginning?

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

I make the terrible assumption that we can 162-0 .

Once we lose then 161-1 and so forth.

I realize you end 95 wins your playing great.

What I do find irritating, is making same mistake on a regular basis.

The hitters approach I find is one that is always looking for the big inning. You don't have to swing hard at every pitch.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Boston anf Seattle hitters going with the pitch tonight.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Yes

Eric said...

DP, I couldn't agree more. I have enjoyed the recent offensive outbreaks immensely but still woke up nervous about the next day's game.

I think stats can seduce us into thinking that, say, a guy with a .333 average will get one hit for every three at bats at least over the course of a series, if not a given game. I think intellectually everyone knows it rarely plays out that way, but emotions run high and subtle expectations take hold.

Anyway, I agree we're tending well and have been for some time. IMO there's no doubt that Hamels and Lannan both pitched very well... it was extremely frustrating but I think in this case it's true. What was encouraging was that we managed to get to their relievers two nights in a row in the ninth inning... That was a big problem for us during The Slump.

Nats Fan 204 said...










Bryce Harper is no longer playing with the energy that was so much a part of his game and so sorely needed by this team. any ideas as to why this is the case?







David Proctor said...

I think Harper is playing with his normal energy. It was only 2 days ago he went 3-4 with 2 stolen bases for goodness sake. He made a diving catch the other day. He tried to steal yesterday but...something happened.

Harper is the last guy we need to be worrying about, imo.

David Proctor said...

I mean, there are no moral victories. I get that. But Werth JUST missed a home run last night that would've given the Nats the lead and he wasn't too far off from a Grand Slam today. That would change the entire narrative with one swing. Let's just take a wait and see approach.

Eric said...

I was a little concerned about Harper's knee yesterday when he pulled up on the seemingly catchable foul pop up in the bottom of the same inning that he pulled up on the steal.

Seemed OK today though...

Eric said...

Agreed re: Werth... and, of course RZim DID hit a grand slam a few days ago that wound up being the difference.

Hard for me to be more than simply frustrated by his flailing/looking tonight.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

There was a wall run into yesterday, so I thought the pull up meant he is becoming experience.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

The fielding was the more frustrating parts tonight and last night too.

David Proctor said...

And of course, Ryan's Grand Slam came on a first pitch swing. Against a guy like Hamels today, I was perfectly fine with our approach. Just because it didn't work doesn't mean it's a problem with the approach. Like FP says, if the guy is throwing strikes "there's nothing to wait around for." There's no need to let a hitter get ahead and then having to fight off a tough secondary pitch. The best pitches to hit are often early in the count. The problem is today we didn't execute. Approach was fine.

David Proctor said...

pitcher get ahead*

John C. said...

The umpire was not only terrible tonight, he consistently hosed the Nationals. If you look at the pitch data it's pretty stark. It's not just that Hamels got bonus strikes outside the zone that the Nats weren't getting, but the Nats had multiple pitches IN the zone not called strikes.

Not that umpires are accountable or anything.


Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Planned to watch dodgers dbacks but seattle Boston game really entertaining.

Eric said...

"The umpire was not only terrible tonight, he consistently hosed the Nationals."

Sure seemed that way to me, John C. 8th and 9th seemed to be the worst.

Get Your Re(n)d On said...

"Bryce Harper is no longer playing with the energy that was so much a part of his game and so sorely needed by this team. any ideas as to why this is the case?"

He hit the wall and the wall won.

Eric said...

Oh yeah, MNF, the errors are maddening...

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Do the umps see tgese I wonder?

The head of officials by tgeir inaction have already told us tgey love tgeir umps.

I hate the umps calling balls and strikes they are so inconsistant, hopefully by the time I die it will be fixed. If humans refuse to fix themselves. Let the computers do it.

John C. said...

And people who complain about Ryan Zimmerman should educate themselves:

Zimmerman's OPS+ is 129, his best since 2010. He's only had two seasons better than 129. One was 2009, but only just (133). The other was 2010 (142). Both those numbers are still very reachable for him this year. This could very well turn out to be his best offensive season.

Oh, but he’s not “clutch?” Ryan Zimmerman’s 2013 splits, focusing on clutch/high leverage situations:

Overall: .283/.363/.471 .834 OPS
2 outs, RISP: .370/.433/.556 .989 OPS
Late & close: .385/.478/.564 1.042 OPS
High leverage: .404/.442/.723 1.166 OPS (52 plate appearances)

Source: Baseball Reference

Yes, boys and girls, the tighter the situation this year, the better Zimmerman has hit. Of course he's failed a bunch of times - baseball is a game built on failure. But that doesn't mean that overall he hasn't elevated his game.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

And the non plays aka the steal of third yesterday. Doesn't go as an error, but by throwing high, phils got an extra run and extra out.

David Proctor said...

Thank you John C. I've known that was the case, but I didn't have the numbers in front of me.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

My only complaint is striking out more than necessary and double plays.

His RISP easily best on the team.or at least I think so.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

I do believe the umps are never held accountable as all seem to have tenure.

David Proctor said...

If there's a runner in scoring position at a key moment, there's nobody I want up more than Zim. Not Harper, not Werth, not Desi, not LaRoche. Zim. And he usually delivers.

Nats Fan 204 said...

Did anyone notice the comment in the paper the other day that referred to Davey telling Bryce that he, Bryce needed to stop listening to others and to just play his own game? Why do you think Davey made that comment? Davey made this comment after he spoke with Bryce about the play me or trade me comment. When Bryce hits grounders to the infielders he no longer busts it going to first base.











William O. Douglas Loeffler said...

I don't think the issue is whether or not Ryan Zimmerman is a "good" hitter. Everyone agrees that he is. The issue is more that maybe he has been oversold. He has made one All Star game. He seemed to have the talent at one time to be even better than David Wright. No one thinks that is possible anymore.

He is obviously one of the Nats' top hitters. I happen to think that he has (had) the talent to be better than he has been, and seeing at bats like he had tonight and against Cleveland with runners on third in key situations, simply makes me believe that even more.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

I wish It wouldnt matter but it does.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Some people might think he can be better than Wright.

Ot many fore sure, but I doubt none think it.

William O. Douglas Loeffler said...

Cogito ergo sum

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

Some players like Rendon do well in 2 strike counts. Some other players like Desi and RZim seem to be sitting ducks.

RZim is batting .163 in 2 strike counts and .134 when it's either a 0-2 or 1-2 count.

Rendon bats .222 in 2 strike counts and Ian Desmond is .198.

The difference is approach. Rendon's scouting report I was given prior to his callup was that he didn't panic in 2 strike counts and that seems accurate.

RZim tonight went after the high pitch and K'd. He didn't protect the plate in a "must" contact situation with bases loaded and less than 2 outs.

William O. Douglas Loeffler said...

Rendon is a skilled batter in terms of approach.

Now that it appears that the Nats appear likely to be platooning Hairston with Span, I think the two trades look much better. Span hits righties well and provides good defense, albeit not much baserunning compared to what was advertised. Hopefully, Hairston can complement Span's zero power and also get on base against lefties.....

Eric said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Eric said...

"Some players like Rendon do well in 2 strike counts. Some other players like Desi and RZim seem to be sitting ducks."

I could've sworn they posted a graphic tonight of Zim's 2-strike BA... it was somewhere up above .300... Maybe it was for a 2-2 count, which was the count at the time?

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

William O. Douglas Loeffler said...
Rendon is a skilled batter in terms of approach.


Yes and other Nats batters have to learn the art of shortening up a swing and also learn to waste some pitches.

Werth is also good at wasting pitches.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

Price on Bud Norris dropped tonight after he gave up 7 earned! Not a good job by Bo in protecting his pitcher.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

Eric said...
"Some players like Rendon do well in 2 strike counts. Some other players like Desi and RZim seem to be sitting ducks."

I could've sworn they posted a graphic tonight of Zim's 2-strike BA... it was somewhere up above .300... Maybe it was for a 2-2 count, which was the count at the time?


.188 in 2-2 counts. You might be looking at RZim's stats when he is ahead in the count he bats .335

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

I could be wrong, but I believe Hairston and Span will not be platooning as much as you think, though I am going on s hunch like you are.

If Hairston plays tomorrow I wouldn't be surprised that Harper had the night off.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

The shortening of 2 trike pitch which is exactly what I like this team never does.

Well almost never.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

William O. Douglas Loeffler said...

Now that it appears that the Nats appear likely to be platooning Hairston with Span, I think the two trades look much better. Span hits righties well and provides good defense, albeit not much baserunning compared to what was advertised. Hopefully, Hairston can complement Span's zero power and also get on base against lefties.....


After 1 game you can't come to a conclusion on what will work and how the dropoff in defense will will impact the game when you substitue Hairston for Span.

As I have said for a while, I think you can't have a .154 batter leading off in those LH/LHP situation for Denard Span, however, I just don't know if Hairston is the answer.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

I would take Norris.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

My line up against lefties

Werth
Desmond
Harper
Zimmerman
LaRoche
Rendon
Buffalo
Span

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

Manassas Nats' Fan said...
The shortening of 2 trike pitch which is exactly what I like this team never does.

Well almost never.

July 10, 2013 12:27 AM


Rendon changes his approach in 2 strike counts. Lombo and Span have short swings and don't really have to change.

TyMo changed in Game 1 of the playoffs and it was amazing.

Davey doesn't seem to preach it as a part of batting. It's something this team has to get better at. Ryan Zimmerman is too good of a hitter to be so poor in a 2 strike approach.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

Manassas Nats' Fan said...
I would take Norris.

July 10, 2013 12:28 AM


Me too. His price dropped tonight with his stats!

The thing I like about Norris is that he would be even better outside of that hitters park in Houston and with a GOOD defense!

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

My preferred approch is counter to Davey's. So I am outvoted.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

We can supply one of the two and if Norris was lucky, we might field for him.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

MNF, I still think the Nats "D" is better than the Astros in range and making the difficult plays.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

It is, but so far worse than last year's

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

Nats are 22 in team UZR and the Astros are dead last and absolutely one of the worst teams in history.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=0&type=1&season=2013&month=0&season1=2013&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

I can t call up links, but know we are better fielding than Stros.

What was our UZR last yesr? Top 5?

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

MNF, Nats were 14th best in UZR last year. Hard to believe it could be off by that much.

Slight dropoff at 3rd, 2nd, and 1st but OF UZR is improved.

Manassas Nats' Fan said...

Span in center help.

John C. said...

UZR is an imperfect stat, certainly not the last word in defense. My go-to team defensive stat is defensive efficiency - the rate each team turns balls in play into outs. Simple, basic and given the large data pool, reliable. It slso avoids subjective measures such as vagaries of official scorers or deciding whether a ball "should" have been fielded or not.

FWIW, Nats are 11 of 30 MLB teams. Astros are 29 (Minnesota is #30).

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

When Alfonso Soriano has a higher UZR than Span, you have to wonder about the "imperfect stat".

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

John C. said...
My go-to team defensive stat is defensive efficiency - the rate each team turns balls in play into outs. Simple, basic and given the large data pool, reliable. It slso avoids subjective measures such as vagaries of official scorers or deciding whether a ball "should" have been fielded or not.

FWIW, Nats are 11 of 30 MLB teams. Astros are 29 (Minnesota is #30).


The difference between that stat and others is that we know that the Nats have pitchers who are very good at inducing weak contact in pitch to contact.

It's kind of like taking team WHIP and removing the W for Walks.

Nats 128 said...

Ghost, doesnt WHIP include HRs. I think that defensive stat is balls that stay in play that turn into outs divided into total balls that stay in play which takes out strikeouts walks, and HRs.

Like you said, its not a good stat because so much of the outs are a function of effective pitching.

John C. said...

Ghost, the Nats have some good pitchers that are good at inducing weak contact. They have others that are ... considerably less good. The difference in overall quality of contact by opposing batters versus the Nationals is as great as you seem to think it is.

John C. said...

Sigh. "is NOT as great as you seem to think it is."

Going to get more caffeine now lol

JSLSais said...

I have to laugh when I see the statement: "Bryce is a better CF than Span." Hilarious and really only shows that some of us either don't know anything about baseball or are watching different games. Bryce doesn't even come close to being a better CF than Span. Notice how effortlessly Span mans CF while Bryce is always running for his life. This is an indication to you folks who obviously don't know a thing about baseball that Span gets a better read, sees the ball better than Bryce. Any monkey with some speed can chase balls all day but sooner or later the monkey will get burned like Bryce did not last night. Span would have had that ball and he wouldn't even have broken a sweat while Bryce looked like a complete idiot. Where do teams hide their weakest defensive players? LF. Bryce isn't good defensively. Not a very good catcher when he was in college and not that great in the outfield--but since he is Bryce Harper he gets a free pass I guess.

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