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USA Today Sports Images Dan Haren was roughed up for seven runs (three earned) in 4 1/3 innings. |
Pitching lowlight: Things started off swimmingly for Haren. He retired 10 of the first 11 batters he faced, keeping the ball down in the zone and inducing a bunch of grounders. But he imploded after the Zimmerman error, allowing seven of the next 10 batters to reach. He served up a three-run homer to Adeiny Hechavarria, only the third home run hit by the entire Marlins roster this season. And he picked an awful time to issue his first walk of the season, failing to find the strike zone against Greg Dobbs with the bases loaded. Three starts into his Nationals career, Haren has yet to reach the sixth inning. For a veteran who signed a $13 million contract over the winter in large part because of his track record of durability, Haren hasn't come close to holding up his end of the bargain ... so far. It's only three starts, and the Nationals aren't about to give up on him yet. But eventually they're going to need to see something positive out of the guy.
Defensive lowlight: We usually focus on something offensively here, but it seemed more appropriate to focus on defense tonight, given the significance of Zimmerman's error. It wasn't a terrible throw by any stretch of the imagination, just a little high and wide, pulling Adam LaRoche off the bag. But it continued a disturbing trend. Zimmerman has now been charged with four errors this season, three in the last five games, all on throws. He insists his struggles last year were related to his shoulder injury. It's becoming more and more obvious this is less a physical issue than a mental one, underscored by the fact it almost always happens on routine throws, not difficult ones. (He made several tough plays tonight.) What can the Nats do? Not much, other than keep giving Zim opportunities to straighten himself out.
Key stat: Roger Bernadina's first start of the season didn't do anything to help the reserve outfielder get his bat going. Bernadina is now 0-for-8 in 2013.
Up next: The series concludes with Ross Detwiler looking to record another quality start (and perhaps this time be rewarded with a win). Detwiler will face Marlins ace Ricky Nolasco at 7:10 p.m.
69 comments:
Chris Young. Where are thou?
A. Ross D should not be the fifth starter. B. Haren's pitching is laborious- the defense goes into a coma C. How good does that Chris Young signing look?
The curse of Mike Morse has hit this team. Trading him away was one big mistake and bringing Haren here was another. Not only do Nats miss Mike's big bat, they also greatly miss what he brought to the team and the clubhouse. Can't put a price on that. Thanks, Rizzo, for nothing!
slight correction on Marks analysis. Zim had an error Friday, Ssturday, Sunday and tonight4 of the last 5 games.
Actually, given the way he has been pitching it might be time to look at Danny Rosenbaum.
Swami - now that we are into the season does it really matter who you call the 4th or 5th starter? Hell, Det is throwing better than anyone except JZimmnn so call him the #2 starter if you want. My concern is how long will they stay with Haren and for that matter Henry? We have people in AAA who can replace both but will Rizzo just dump 13 million? My guess is we will see Haren at least 3 or more times and if that era stays at 8+ they will have to do something. It won't be Chris Young though, he is still down in Fla as far as I know. I am guessing it will be Ohlendorf who is 2-0 in Syracuse and has major league experience just like Young. I just don't think we will see him that soon - hope I am wrong. Maybe Haren gets that strange injury that we often see in mlb. This is very discouraging.
Go Nats!!! Win the series lads.
In other words: There's a reason why Young is still in XST.
And sjm308 just gave another one: Ross Ohlendorf ... and Tanner Roarke has also been doing well.But not as good as Rosenbaum and Ohlendorf.
We everyone says it is early...
Well lets comare to early last year.
Hitting this year is better. We have 3 not hitting well 5 hitting well.
Starters a little poorer to medium amount poorer.
Pitchers until May ERA was below 2.50
Relievers far inferior.
Fielding even more inferior than relievers. Last years most of the year 3 rd in fielding. 15th now.
Result team not playing to the same standards early like last year.
For those who say its early. The Nats are facing a major league team that might not be as good as their minor league Syracuse Chiefs AAA affiliate. Since they are without Giancarlo Stanton.
These are games they must win early or late.
Teresa may be right... i never felt good about trading Morse
the Marlins are terrible, Nats really have to win tomorrow
I see Braves were losing going into 8th and won again. Our hitters have not shown that same late inning gusto to win late so far.
Waaaaaaahhh!
Good points being made by all, and not in a spiteful way for the most part. Very rough start to the season. Not saying we can't recover, but not pretty. Good reasons for concern but not outright panic. Will be interesting to see how this plays out, if the manager just lets things go, and for how long. My main reaction is more like --hmmmmm, what's going on here?
I'm ready to bring in yunesky Maya
Becoming increasingly evident that Ryan Z should purchase a 1st basemen's glove...at what point does good ole boy Davey take off the rose colored glasses and figure that out....you can pretty much set your watch on Ryan's nightly throwing error, as far as Haren goes you can count on another month of his starts, we all know how Davey likes to let these veterans figure it out.
Teresa may be right... i never felt good about trading Morse
Only works if they were sure about LaRoche and Moore ... especially Moore. But Moore hasn't been given enough chance to get his timing and rhythm down.
They could put Zim on the DL and ensure he is completely healed before bringing him back. But then (from my perspective) it looks like a choice between Zach Walters (his offense does not look ready whereas Kobernus' does) and AA starter Anthony Rendon. Then there's Carlos Rivero and "George" Costanzo.
We can all pretty much guess what Davey will want to do. Pull up Rendon now. Then you have to go through his fits and starts adjusting to major league hitting ... or he comes up and hits as if he was born to it as he has at every level. But power comes later in the game. Fielding wise he'll be about as good as you could hope for.
So, then, when Zim is ready to come back then what? Back to the minors? Nuh huh not if Rendon has been playing good. Zim might have to learn a new position and learn it during his rehab.
Solution:
Micah Owens! Lol. He's a better 5th the Harren and can PH. His bat is sik!
I always assume when the next game starts is a win. Always have done that always will.
So after tomorrow 9-6
Haren's reminding me of Marqui's 1st year
at what point does good ole boy Davey take off the rose colored glasses and figure that out
He may already have. Remember, Davey isn't afraid to reach down to AA or even A+ for players he thinks can help him. Whereas GM Mike Rizzo believes in following the development process and getting at least a year of minor league ball in.
So, it won't be just Davey making that call ... and it will be discussed for hours before it happens. And a plan will have to be developed both for Rendon's continued development and for Zim's transition to a new position.
Peric. ray just said he likes Werth in lead off.
I'll say it for:
"like you have been telling us all along"
Anyways ... the short and the long of it? At least we now know why Bryce Harper stopped hustling ... the guy was coming down with something.
Wow Rizzo looking real bad right now. I was initially in favor of the Morse trade, but I see it was a mistake. How long do you stay with Zimm? Right now he has hit one home run and cost four games due to errors. I don't know if the team holes can be filled this year. It also appears the Gio trade was good in the short term, but Gio always had the reputation of being a head case. A lot of head cases that will need to be addressed.
Dan Haren was in a nice rhythm just like Strasburg then the error happens.
Isn't Zim's hammy acting up? Everyone saves face if he does a DL stint for that. After all the years of watching the Nats, it's so hard to watch Zim right now. Makes me sad. He has given us so many clutch, joyful moments. Now Haren-- Whatever will they do with him? Davey? Rizzo? Bueller? Anyone?
ryan zimmerman is the nomar garciaparra of the nats. Come july, it will be time to trade him for a 5th starter, lefty reliever and a prospect or two. Who in the al is struggling and need a corner if/dh? Hopefully2013 in dc will be 2004in boston redux!
Swami - now that we are into the season does it really matter who you call the 4th or 5th starter?
For that matter, why not think of him as #1, and he just missed his first start? ;-)
Wow Rizzo looking real bad right now.
Yup -- bringing a two-consecutive-season 100+ loss team to 98 victories . . . real bad. (not).
After all, one can evaluate any trade after only 14 games, right?
(not)
U gotta like harren's attitude and honesty (post game)
Peric. ray just said he likes Werth in lead off.
I'll say it for:
"like you have been telling us all along"
I wasn't expecting to receive empirical support for my strongly held conjectures until much later. And ... I'm not sure management wants to look like they are panicking ... but Davey likes to move fast and this is after all his "theoretical" last year as a manager? What would a "lame duck" hall of famed do?
Gonat- shouldn't a veteran pitcher be able to roll with it?
ryan zimmerman is the nomar garciaparra of the nats. Come july, it will be time to trade him for a 5th starter, lefty reliever and a prospect or two.
He's going to first base Farid. They need his HEALTHY bat.
Ok- here is what I really want-- JZ #1 and Det #2.
Good points Peric.......really disturbing start, team does not seem as hungry as last year, I just hope Davey has got it in him to give this team a kick in the pants. I know it is early but 5 games out is 5 games out, as the philthies proved last year it's hard to come back from a big deficit when you are chasing a very good baseball team.
Ok- here is what I really want-- JZ #1 and Det #2.
Doesn't matter how they are lineup. They just need to make sure Detwiler pitches more often. Looks like they may have finally struck pay dirt with their first rounder.
Nice to consider that the anchors of their rotation are two first round picks and an extremely highly valued (by his asst. GM drafter Mike Rizzo) 2nd rounder.
They just need another couple of draft picks to get through the system and everyone will be locally grown.
Haren pitched fine from the wind up. Terrible from the stretch.
Good points Peric.......really disturbing start, team does not seem as hungry as last year, I just hope Davey has got it in him to give this team a kick in the pants.
I don't think its that. They just don't have the chemistry they had when Jayson Werth agreed to go to the lead-off spot in front of his Padwan Bryce Harper. That and the return to complete health of Morse and Zimmerman's cortisone shot ... of course they also lost Espy to the rotator cuff unbeknownst to everyone including Espy at that point ...
Haren was pitching an absolute gem until the error and then the wheels came off. I'd expect a veteran to be able to put that behind him better than Haren did.
I feel bad for Haren. In the other hand, what a big melt down.
I'm scared for Zimmie. ANd it doesn't help a single thing, but I am still mourning Michael.
I'll shut up now.
I feel bad for Ryan too:
"Ryan Zimmerman admitted he's frustrated by errors. Even asked Adam LaRoche & Ian Desmond in the dugout if they're seeing anything different."
"Ian Desmond came to a strong defense of Zimmerman. "By no means is this going to be the downfall of a superstar.""
Ian has really become the leader of this team, imo.
Again swami, you call them whatever you want. Doesn't really matter until the playoffs for the next 4 months. for the rest of the season you will rarely now see one teams #1 vs another teams #1. Just too many days off, interleague play, rainouts and travel days. I believe that tomorrow Det is pitching against Nolasco and he was their opening day starter. Its not #5 vs. #1 its Det vs. Nolasco
My next question is, with all the "movement" that is being discussed, what are you doing with LaRoche? If you are moving Ryan to the dl then you still have to have someone play 3rd and Lombo really is not that person. It really is folly to think that Zimmerman will play first base this season when he has NEVER played it before. This is not spring training people. These games count.
Peric can talk about that move and Span to the bench till he is blue in the face but they just are not going to happen. We might not win the NL East but they are not going to blow up what is still an excellent team after 15 games.
I like that 9-6 idea. Followed by 2 of 3 from the Mets and then we just keep winning each series.
Go Nats!! Win this series!
I really hope Haren picks it up. I rooted for Nats to sign him in the off-season and I like his type of pitchers.
No one is talking about it but Henry was less than stellar again today.
Peric can talk about that move and Span to the bench till he is blue in the face but they just are not going to happen.
Sooner or later Zim is going to first base. Zim is a good enough fielder and athlete to pick up the position pretty quickly ... its that or second base while Espy gets his rotator cuff fixed.
If you can get rid of an 11 million dollar starter in Haren by banishing him to the bullpen or the DL? Why not with a 33 year old first baseman batting .147 with 10 strike outs?
I'm not saying it will happen now but I suspect by next season this will all come to pass.
Zimmie's making a $100 million to throw a ball across the diamond and Haren's making $14 million to pitch it, my sympathy is limited. This town and the sport need a successful team. Rizzo is playing with other people's money so he better get together with Davey and figure this out.
No one is talking about it but Henry was less than stellar again today.
They'll have to release if it doesn't change. Fernando Abad and JC Romero are both doing pretty well in Syracuse.
BTW, sjm308 there's another justification of my thinking about Moore, Rendon et al? Why keep trying with Henry when you've got veterans in Syracuse like Romero?
If they think moving Zim to first will make them better now and over the long haul they are going to do it. If they think putting Rendon at third base now will make them better now AND he will continue to develop for the future they will do it.
baseballswami said...
Gonat- shouldn't a veteran pitcher be able to roll with it?
_____________________________
There was a long discussion here last year on this subject. Rhythm is very key and so are their emotions. I remember the 1st time Det faced the Reds and there was an error and he gave up a Grand Slam and all runs were unearned.
Zim's making around 14 million not 100 million this season.
Gonat- shouldn't a veteran pitcher be able to roll with it?
New team, different league, high contract figure ... more pressure.
Peric - I am coming around to them at least experimenting with it in LaRoche's last year but I just don't think they (the FO & Davey) will panic right now. I agree that both Haren and LaRoche are underperforming but both are veterans and LaRoche is known for his slow starts.( I really don't want you to get blue in the face either by the way.)
As for Morse, its been hashed and re-hashed. He is in his final year of his contract so we probably would lose him next year anyway. Span is under control for the next 3 years and gives us at the minimum, excellent defense which Morse could never provide. Span is not the problem so far, it is our errors, an erratic bullpen, and several veterans not playing up to potential. I miss Mike and what he brought to the team just like others but I think it was the right move to sign LaRoche and then you just could not keep Mike as a super sub.
Isn't he being paid around 100 million to play until legal retirement age? Again, very limited sympathy.
This probably will not happen but just on the rare chance that they actually do move Zimm to the dl, my choice would be to move Rendon up. This is flying against a lot of what I have read from people here I respect but it does allow us to see if he is the real deal. Third base is his natural position, he is hitting the cover off the ball and getting on base. He would not be the first player to jump from AA to the majors (didn't Machado do the same thing with the O's?). He is on the 40 man roster so there would be no need to make any type of move.
Again, I am not calling for them to place Zimm on the dl but if they did, that is when I would like to see Rendon move in. Now, if he plays great, they would then have an interesting decision wouldn't they?
Uh Oh!!
Some perspective: Here are the records of the last 5 World Series Champions at the 14-game mark of their title season and some white-hot teams at that same point:
2008: Phillies, (7-7) (Cards, D-Backs both 10-4)
2009: Yanks (8-6) (Marlins 11-3, Dodgers, 10-4)
2010: Giants (8-6) (Yanks, 10-3, Rays, 10-4, Twins, 10-4)
2011: Cardinals (7-7) (Rangers, 10-3, Rockies, 11-2)
2012: Giants (7-7) (Nats, 12-4, Dodgers, 12-3, Rangers, 12-3).
Of the white-hot teams, the ONLY one in the list to make it to the WS that season was 2011 Texas. Braves are hot and VERY, VERY good, so they might do it, but, for what's it worth, the Nats record is the SAME or 1-game different than every WS champion for the past 5 seasons.
It's how you finish that matters, not how you start.
Why not with a 33 year old first baseman batting .147 with 10 strike outs?
Because he almost _always_ plays poorly at the start of the season.
Get this: lifetime he's batting .219 for April (!)
But also, lifetime, he's betting .291, .302., and .293 for July/Aug/Sept
It's just who he is, and he's been doing it for 10 years.
anyone who continues to say zimmerman doesn't have a throwing issue, pull your head out of your @$$. the whole game changed on that error. a more resilient pitcher than haren might have been able to get through that. but Danny isn't there. the question is what do you do with this problem? can you bench the face of the franchise? at some point you have to face reality. zim is the worst 3rd baseman in baseball right now. will he get better with time, maybe. but if he doesn't improve his throwing, he'll continue to single handedly lose games for us. tough problem with no easy answer. people keep saying it's early. But an April loss is the same as a September loss. the Nats are not a good team right now. And their defense and bullpen are the main reason. I'd say put Zimm on the DL, bring up Rendon and try to jumpstart this team back into contention.
This is flying against a lot of what I have read from people here I respect but it does allow us to see if he is the real deal. Third base is his natural position, he is hitting the cover off the ball and getting on base.
Something you might want to remember that people like Mr. Insider Natsjack and his "checkers" seem to forget. Davey Johnson believes himself to be the best possible choice to finish developing top prospects ... in the major leagues. If you don't believe this just have "Mr. Insider" ask some of his "contacts" (if he has any) about that.
If Davey thinks he needs Rendon he'll call him up and convince Rizzo that he can finish his development. The caveat? Why hasn't it happened yet? Because player development (and rightly) would ask him to ensure that one of the top prospects in major league baseball plays everyday. BUT, that would mean Ryan Zimmerman goes elsewhere.
I am really surprised that player development allows both Moore and Lombo to stay on the bench. These aren't bench players in anyone's mind. But Davey did get Lombo the requisite 300AB's and then some last year so ... he gets Moore and Lombo.
But both do need to start playing regularly if not every day.
If the Nats do fall way behind the Braves that is precisely what will happen.
But also, lifetime, he's betting .291, .302., and .293 for July/Aug/Sept
And for teams typically out of contention by that point. Like Arizona.
If he doesn't hit they will fall behind the Braves. If they fall behind the Braves he'll find himself permanently on the bench as the Nats move to bring up their young players.
I'm pretty new to baseball fanaticism, but I really don't see that it's anywhere near time to panic. Davey needs to do whatever he did during the skid-inspired team meeting last August. I see no reason to think he wont.
The more I get into this game, the more I realize its all about the slow burn. The hardest thing about it seems to be keeping perspective in dire situations because they can unfold pretty slowly on various levels (a given inning, game, series, pitching rotation, month, etc). There's a lot of time to think, and it's easy to think yourself into a corner when things look bad. Or, less than ideal, which I think is a fairer description of the current situation.
IMO right now we need to worry more about putting daylight between ourselves and the middle of the pack than catching up with 12-1. Just hold steady and wait (hope) for the Braves to cool off.
Er, to finish the thought in the second paragraph, I think majorly overhauling the entire infield and BP at 8-6 after 14 games might be reasonably considered "pressing," in a sense, if I interpret the term correctly.
Unknown - thanks for digging those numbers up.
9-6 by tomorrow night people and then we get a day off to get ready to handle the metropolitans
Personally, I don't look at records at this stage. What I'm looking at are the elements of the game - starting pitching, bullpen, hitting, and defense. Our team ERA, WHIP, Save %, ERA against are more important than the record. Unfortunately, this is why I'm concerned, even if we win a game or series. The Marlins just scored 8 runs, only 4 of which are earned. Our team ERA is average or below. WHIP is horrendous, at least at the bullpen level. Eventually our record will gravitate to our ranking in ERA, WHIP, and run differential, all of which are bad.
9-6 by tomorrow night people and then we get a day off to get ready to handle the metropolitans
By June we'll know 'enough' of the score and since we know Davey the mathematician follows statistical analyses closely he's going to make moves just on the cusp of June in order to change a negative predicted outcome.
Wow pitchforks and torches for Zimm? Rizzo? And Davey?
Sheesh....
Zimm's having a tough time, but he'll still be playing third in October.
Trading Morse was a heartbreaker, but he was gone after this year anyway.
Davey rocks!
Go Nats!
I still think the best solution for right now would be Zimmerman to the DL, Ian to third, Danny to short and Lombo to second. If ALR doesn't hat up then play Moore at first.
Espi should not ever, ever play ahead of Lombo.
As much as I love Tmo I can't mess with our outfield. I'd rather him play first. If he plays daily he's easy 30 plus bombs.
I have no idea what to do with alr and zim. I love those dudes. But they are an issue.
I told you so -- virtually everything I stated was wrong is now self evident.
Everything.
All you haters and attackers owe me a huge apology for being so nasty.
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