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US Presswire photo Ross Detwiler was roughed up by the Phillies for five early runs. |
First things first, though. They needed to win their series opener against the Phillies, which proved perhaps a more daunting task than hoped.
A two-inning meltdown by Ross Detwiler left the Nationals in a deep early hole. Then, despite knocking out ace Cole Hamels after five innings, they couldn't touch a parade of relievers that trotted out of the Philadelphia bullpen.
Combine this 6-3 loss with the Braves' simultaneous walk-off, 4-3 victory over the Marlins and suddenly the Nationals' path to the NL East crown looks a bit bumpier. Their lead is down to four games with eight to play. Their magic number remains five. And they can no longer clinch here in Philly. The celebration can't take place until Friday night in St. Louis at the absolute earliest.
"You take a lot of pride getting a win down the stretch like this," Detwiler said. "That's what we all play for. It could have been a big step. We could have celebrated on their field, like they have on our field, and I didn't let that happen."
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62 comments:
the collapse is in full swing. so sad, never saw it coming with how the guys were just rolling all year. hard to tell if the Strasburg shutdown is the culprit, but you got to think its having some kind of effect in the players minds.
Doom. DOOOOOOM! DOOOOOOOOOM!
Nah. It's just baseball. Another game tomorrow.
Collapse? And of course shutting down Strasburg is to blame ...
My GOD PEOPLE WAKE UP! Brains there have to be a few out there? Or are they all besotted with too much hyperbole for having the best record in baseball for so long ... that or too many of those bourbon and Maalox boilermakers?
After the Phillies initial "collapse" they righted themselves, shipped some people out, released others, and have been playing extremely well. Unfortunately, especially against the Nats. AS HAVE the "collapsed" Marlins. Just show those two teams the curly-W and they act like champions again ... if only for a series Strasburg notwithstanding. Just lately the Braves have started to behave that way.
That's how it is being in the toughest division in the NL East with the youngest team in the playoffs ... well depending on whether the former baby Nats in Oakland get to the promised land of course. That just means the Nats model is in the playoff in both leagues.
This team does not have a lot of experience with pennant races and playoffs. They have maybe 4 guys plus their manager who know what its all about.
Yes, this is yet another learning experience ... and the "Natsies" have grown up fast ... faster than expected ... except in the eyes of their manager.
You are just going to have to put up with their learning on the job, with Stras shutdowns (YES THERE MAY BE OTHERS IN THE FUTURE with other pitchers who might be key assets again! A good number of pitchers were shutdown early as a precaution in the minors this year.), etc. It means you'll have a perennial competitor. But its not like the Nats are all alone in the tough NL East. These aren't AAA teams.
Lighten up.
Could be worse, you could be a fan of the Packers or the Canadiens. I follow both, hows my luck?
Also was an Expo fan a lot of years, including 1994.
How did that work out?
Still I'll hope for the best for the Nats. They will surprise you. I'll enjoy watching the play-offs.
No Peric, it is not a collapse when you play bad all year. it is a collapse when you are playing well all year, then all of a sudden, play awful the final few weeks.
Maybe now they can settle down. The clinch won't happen in Philadelphia. They can play some regular ball there, and take at least one of the two left. Travel to St. Louis, and hopefully their wild card options will be decided by the time we arrive, so they have less to play for. And someday Atlanta has to lose, right? Someday soon. They are scaring me.
The season is like a marathon and the Nats took it out early and have been leading since mile three. Now the end of the race is approaching and the legs are starting to get wobbly and you just hope there is enough gas in the tank to finish the job.
It also might help if our pursuers weren't playing a team that's tanking just to get their manager fired.
4 wins in the past 11 games ... I admit, that worries me a little.
But they're still in the drivers seat and tied for first overall in MLB. Go Nats!
Gas is not the problem, there is plenty of gas...youth and lack of experience (cept harpo)is showing here. The good news is that leadership is solid, we have to hope solid enough to carry.
Gas is not the problem, there is plenty of gas...youth and lack of experience (cept harpo)is showing here. The good news is that leadership is solid, we have to hope solid enough to carry.
It's been bothering me for some time, even before we clinched a playoff spot how the Nats players, their media, and their fans, including this blog, have been talking about where to celebrate, how to celebrate, and various clinch scenarios.
We haven't won anything yet. Yes, we made the playoffs, but so what!?! If that's all we're content with after this magical year, then we deserve a "one and done" fate. If we've conceded that we'll never make it all the way without Strasburg (maybe sub-consciously we have?), then we deserve whatever losing fate awaits us.
Everyone in the baseball world knows that whichever team is the hottest coming into the postseason stands the best chance of winning the whole thing. If we're on cruise control, we're in for a rude awakening. So, please... ENOUGH of the celebration talk!
We can talk about the amazing celebration on Capitol Street next spring after we bring a World Series title to DC.
We don't have a lot of experience in a pennant race. Werth and Jackson, and I believe thats it. I think the situation got to Detwiler last night. Call it what you want....nerves....choked....whatever....but he was "all over the place" with his pitches.
Lannan tonight. (Deep breath)
Gotta get the sticks going
Actually, it was a typical performance by the Nationals after a blowout win or off day; they never win. I'm not one to check stats; just go on my memory, but the Nationals seem to always lose after a day off or after a blowout of 10 runs or more, which of course doesn't happen every day. Some think they may have been too amped up; I think they lose their focus. Game on tonight. One game at a time, the only way to enjoy it. Yes, I think Lannan gets a win!
I'm not satisfied with one and done, and I don't assume a straight-line progression for this team. We were hot at the end of last year and it carried over. After the collapse of this year, what makes you think it won't continue into next year? Some players can lead. It looks like Harper is one. But our core like Zimmerman, Espinoa, and Desmond does not appear to be able to. And shutting down Stasburg appears to have been a mistake. Hope I am wrong.
Barring something crazy, the division will be locked up by the weekend. Our inexperience will hurt in the playoffs but my biggest concern is the offense being either feast of famine. Too many strikeouts and not enough OBP. That's why I am critical of Morse. Without any power he is sub-replacement level because his D is so bad. As far as Danny, There are rumors of Rendon playing 2B in the AFL. I still love Espi for his D and hope he puts it together next year but you can't lead the league in K's as a middle infielder and last in the MLB unless you hits 30 HR's and walk like Uggla and even he has lost playing time. We need more professional hitters who work the count and get on base rather than just hit an occasional HR. Rendon may be that guy if healthy.
Nothing wrong that 5 wins won't cure.
Don't remember if Joe West has a low strike zone, but, if he does, Lannan could win tonight. That would be even bigger than his win against the Braves in his first game back.
That would have been sweet, but tough to do. On the bright side, with a Phillies tragic number of 3, it's still possible for the Nats to take care of their own business while smothering any remaining postseason dreams of their hosts. :-)
And they can no longer clinch here in Philly. The celebration can't take place until Friday night in St. Louis at the absolute earliest.
(I'm so bloodthirsty when I talk about the Phillies. Heh. :-))
A baseball season is long and arduous at best. Are you forgetting that we all thought 2013 would be our year? We have arrived in this place a year early, before some of our players are developed to the point they will be next year. We arrived at this place in Strasburg's shut-down season.We arrived in this place despite so many key injuries. This season has been a miracle - we have won 93 games!!!! Other teams are clinching with far less wins. We also have arrived at this place with the Braves on a tear in Chipper's last season, after they collapsed last year. Unfortunate for us. The Nats are just limping to the finish line at this point. If you watch, you can see it.When was the last time we won two games in a row? This season may prove to be about one week too long. Yes, they can still pull it together. But if they don't, look how far they have come in such a very short time against so many odds. The 2012 Nats have been quite a show. As I have said before, baseball is a cruel and unpredictable game. 8 days that feels like 8 months to go. I hope they can reach down and find some left in the tank and then it's a matter of a little luck going with us and against the Braves. I just sticks in my craw when these things happen in Philly. That's the tough part for me. Go Nats!
Too much Doom and Gloom. What a shame.
DWS said...
"Could be worse, you could be a fan of the Packers or the Canadiens. I follow both, hows my luck?"
If you're looking for sympathy about rooting for a team that won the Super Bowl two years ago, a comment section populated by DC sports fans probably isn't a the best place to start.
Clip&Store said...
"No Peric, it is not a collapse when you play bad all year. it is a collapse when you are playing well all year, then all of a sudden, play awful the final few weeks."
The Nationals are 13-9 in September. 8-7 in games after the Strasburg shutdown. And their schedule starting on September 14 is by far their most difficult stretch of the season, with every single game against a winning team between 9/14 and the end of the season. When you play better teams, it's harder to win.
It's one thing to be a pessimist. It's quite another to be just plain wrong. You can't help your negative attitude, but it only takes 30 seconds to look up facts.
Relax folks - they just want to clinch at home...
Guess what, 15 teams lost yesterday
DJB
Honestly, your reasoning makes no sense. Success didn't carry over from last year to this--it was a revamped rotation that made the Nats' success early on this season, and their hottest hitter this spring was ALR, who wasn't even on the roster last Sept.
And has been pointed out many, many times, there's no reason to think things would be better if Stras were still pitching. Two of his last three starts were poor, and in the 2 games that Lannan pitched in replacement, he did very well in one and poorly in the other, which the Nats still fought back to tie before Clip blew it in the 9th.
I get it that people are frustrated and worried about clinching. I wish that counter up in Mark's RH corner was a few clicks lower too. But the sky is not falling, and silly theories about why the sky is falling aren't going to do anyone any good.
1a, I appended a note at the end of the previous discussion that I htought might be of interest...in a rather roundabout way it says I didn't mean to apply doom and gloom labels to specific people, but observe that it is a phenomenon none the less. (still I took my medicine, and will try to play nice under sedation... :) .
What was the old Saturday morning cartoon series that had the guy who sounded like Walter Mathieu , he was doom and gloom he would always say... "it will never work" lol
@baseballswami
And once again you talk me down from the ledge.
Thanks, whatsa. I'll carry forward my reply as well.
natsfan1a said...
Whatsa, as noted, I've not read comments from last night and wasn't directing my remarks at you in particular. It's more about the trend on the part of a group of commenters to toss out that label whenever someone makes a remark that they perceive as too negative. Also, although those who like to throw that label around do make negative comments themselves on occasion, they don't seem to get tagged with the label.
Not that it matters what I think, but I'd prefer to see a reply that addresses a given comment on the merits than one that dismisses the source of that comment as a "Legion of Doom" member (and thus, evidently, unworthy of engaging in discussion).
September 26, 2012 9:06 AM
I guess I should carry forward my original post for context:
natsfan1a said...
As previously noted, I'm not real big on the tossing out of "Legion of Doom" and other such labels here. I've not read the comments from last night. Did anybody stick one on FP late in the game? I hope not, because I kinda like him and can understand where he was coming from. :-)
September 26, 2012 8:27 AM
The neganons are taking.over again. The world is ending.
After every loss, the Legion of Doom and Orioles legion come here to write their negativity.
You are ruining a happy time for many. The Nats are in the playoffs. Enjoy it!
Lippy the Lion's, Hardy Har Har was the "it will never work" character
some one at work said Rocket J Squirel said it first, but Rocky was always positive with Bullwinkle, Boris Badanov was my favorite, I always thought he would have made a great adult movie character.
I cant believe I'm talking about cartoons and porn, lol
Stop playing guys who are hurt and hurting the team. Plenty of bench guys who are healthy and can contribute. This has been a problem all year.
In other news, MASN update from the dcrtv site:
"Nats Could Get A Bigger Piece Of MASN - 9/25 - DCRTV's hearing more from key local media sources regarding the dragged-out talks Major League Baseball is having regarding the Mid-Atlantic Sports Network and its TV rights payments to the Nationals and the Orioles. One scenario that seems to be rising to the top of the "most likely" outcomes, we're told, involves the Nationals taking an accelerated ownership percentage in MASN. Currently, the team owns 13% of the Baltimore-based regional sports network. That figure could go up to somewhere in the 40% range - much sooner than the current time frame calls for. That's a key sticking point in the talks, which were supposed to produce results in June. Now, we hear, there will be no announcement of a MASN rights deal until early next year. The Nationals are asking MASN, which is controlled by the Orioles and broadcasts both teams' games, for between $100 million and $120 million per year, at least three times the $29 million they received last season. Reportedly, MASN proposed paying $34 million this season. A new acceletated ownership deal could see the Nationals receiving somewhere near the $120 million range next year, without MASN actually cutting the team a check for that amount. And, whatever the Nationals get from the deal, the Orioles are due the same amount, according to a market sharing agreement. However, we're told that the current talks could still fall apart, with MASN and the Nationals' ownership heading to court next year....."
I think the Phillies will play real hard until the end because they would love to be the spoilers for Nats. The fact that the Nats dethrone them and the take back the park stuff made them quite bitter.
If I did my head math correctly, the Nats can go 3-2 over the next 5 games in Philly and StL. and if the Braves go 5-0 then the Nats could still clinch at home. Not necessarily a goal, but ... it would be sort of cool.
Tell me again what happens if we have the second or third best record among the division winners? If we fell to third best, would we open the DS at home?
NatsFan1a, thanks for the MASN update. Angelos the lawyer never wants to settle this. The cable rights fees alone has made Angelos an even wealthier troll. 87% owner where profits currently are over $100 million is a ton of cash made mostly on the DC population.
$36 a year from every cable and satellite subscriber in the MASN footprint adds up to more money that should belong to the Nats and they can't get to it.
whatsanattau-
If we fall to third best, we open on the road presumably in San Francisco.
It's unlikely, though. The Giants have the same record as the Braves and a much tougher remaining schedule, with two more against the DBacks, three on the road against the much improved Padres, and then closing on the road in LA. If we slump badly enough to let them catch us, chances are pretty good that the Braves would catch us too. Plus we have the better head to head records against the Giants, so if there's a tie I believe we get HFA in the division series.
Correction- if we fall to third best we open at HOME. But we lose home field advantage, with the final three games of the division series in San Fran most likely.
"However, we're told that the current talks could still fall apart, with MASN and the Nationals' ownership heading to court next year....."
Thanks for the update. I don't think the Nats can lose on this, whether it goes to court, or not. Angelos gets such a big piece of the Nats' pie because Washington was designated Oriole turf before there was a team in DC. It makes as much sense, now, to designate Baltimore as Nats turf because the DC metro area is larger than Baltimore's.
The only reasonable solution is to separate both markets from each other, and let each team cut its own media deal. Since the league allowed Angelos to get his hands in the Nats pockets, it will likely take a lawsuit to yank them back out.
If they don't settle this, the Nats' owners could have an anti-trust suit against both the league and Angelos for negotiating away rights that properly belong to the Nats ownership, without consulting with the new owners, and then forcing them to swallow the deal under duress. The league screwed this up from the start, IMO.
The worry warts sure aren't ruining my happy time. Playing meaningful baseball in September is downright exciting. I'm in heaven, whatever happens.
Just remind yourselves, if we're the first seed, we play the depleted WC winner. If we're the second seed, Davey gets an extra few days to prepare. If we're the third seed, we start the NLDS at home in front of 41,000 screaming fans, the vast, vast, vast majority of whom have never seen a postseason baseball game in DC. It's all good.
We got this folks.
If they don't settle this, the Nats' owners could have an anti-trust suit against both the league and Angelos
MLB does still have an antitrust exemption (unlike other pro sports) although it hasn't been tested in the courts in quite a while.
Laddie, it was a garbage deal that was part of the purchase package so doubtful any anti-trust suit would work from a fellow owner.
The equitable reset isn't fair as the Orioles get the same amount as the Nats.
Angelos won't give up this deal as this makes him more money in almost any scenario.
Wainright, Loshe, Lynn will not be easy this weekend. I don't think the Nats have a disadvantage or advantage in the remaining games.So it's a toss up. The Braves need to falter to makes this easier.
We got this folks.
Until they win five more games, all they've got is a one-game play-in. Can't count on the Braves to lose. Meanwhile, all the ingredients are being put in place to support an epic collapse. The Sports Illustrated Cover Jinx. A three game celebration of lovable LOSER Teddy, sponsored by that LOSER newspaper the Washington Post. It's all there. We ain't got sh*t yet. Not only that, people are getting their single game playoff tickets in the mail already, and no sign of that playoff strip I bought and paid for back in, what, July? They're going to make me truck out to some far-flung UPS office early next week while they're completing the choke at home to pick up the tickets for the play-in game and maybe even the tiebreaker game that would not have been necessary but for the choke. That's what we've got, folks.
September 26, 2012 7:08 AM
Tim said...
...
Everyone in the baseball world knows that whichever team is the hottest coming into the postseason stands the best chance of winning the whole thing. If we're on cruise control, we're in for a rude awakening.
I can't speak for whether "everyone in the baseball world knows" it, but if you actually look at the numbers it just isn't true. The supposed correlation comes to "a whole lot of nothing, an essentially random relationship between recent performance and first-round success."
Source: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=14911
And why is it, any time a team loses or a player loses an individual matchup, that team or player "choked?"
That's lazy, knee-jerk sofa psychiatric analysis that doesn't do either the winner or the loser any justice. In baseball there will always* be a winner and a loser. That doesn't mean there is always a choker.
*we will ignore Selig's all-star game idiocy from a few years ago
222-
As I tried to explain before, there is virtually no chance we'll be the third seed. We'd have to get caught and passed by a team that currently has the same record as the Braves without allowing the Braves to catch us. Considering those teams' remaining schedules, that seems very unlikely.
We'll either be the 1, the 2, or in the Wildcard. Only way we're the 3 in my opinion is if we slump really badly and end up in a tie with the Braves and then beat them in the tiebreaker game. That would probably mean we'd burn Gio in Game 162 and Zimmermann in Game 163, so that's hardly ideal.
"Laddie, it was a garbage deal that was part of the purchase package so doubtful any anti-trust suit would work from a fellow owner."
That could very well be, but it would raise the stakes, and increqse the pressure to settle. Besides, you never know what may happen in court. Curt Flood could testify to that.
Angelos has had his chance to renegotiate a more equitable deal, and he won't, even under league pressure. When Angelos was given the DC area by the league, TV money was peanuts compared to what it is now, i.e. there has been a material change in the facts that warrants a review of the agreement, which is now, arguably, wildly inequitable. And by what authority did MLB decide that TV rights belong to anyone? Does MLB have the monopoly ownership of the rights to baseball broadcast revenue? Under what authority? Is such a monopoly not a violation of the anti-trust laws?
The Nats have nothing to lose, everything to gain. Both the league and Angelos have a lot to lose. All the pressure to settle will be on them.
Does MLB have the monopoly ownership of the rights to baseball broadcast revenue?
Yes.
Under what authority?
The expressed written consent of Major League Baseball.
Is such a monopoly not a violation of the anti-trust laws?
Federal Baseball Club v. National League, 259 U.S. 200 (1922), is a case in which the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the Sherman Antitrust Act did not apply to Major League Baseball.
Laddie
MLB' s anti-trust exemption is long-standing, as Feel Wood points out. The different treatment for MLB compared to other businesses may be bogus legally (the Supreme Ct, in the Flood decision, called it a historical "anomaly") , but a lot of advantages accrue to the league as a whole and to individual team owners as a result of it, and ending it would blow up the MLB as we know it. No team owner is going to do that.
Bowdenball said...
"The Nationals are 13-9 in September. 8-7 in games after the Strasburg shutdown. And their schedule starting on September 14 is by far their most difficult stretch of the season, with every single game against a winning team between 9/14 and the end of the season. When you play better teams, it's harder to win.
It's one thing to be a pessimist. It's quite another to be just plain wrong. You can't help your negative attitude, but it only takes 30 seconds to look up facts."
Yes, you are correct. But if you have watched the games than you da*n well know they are looking like zombies out there. And btw, we're 4-6 in our last 10.
See, two can play at the selective stats game too.
Feelwood, Hiram,
Nevertheless, the SC ruled in favor of Curt Flood to overturn their own anti-trust precedent.
And anti-trust has nothing to do with a material change in the facts that were not reasonably anticipated by the negotiators of the original agreement. A ruling under that umbrella would not have to overturn the anti-trust exemption.
The Lerners could ask for, and possibly be granted, compulsory arbitration by the presiding judge, which would reduce the issue to money, take anti-trust off the table, and leave Angelos as the only party with something to lose.
There is more than one way to skin a legal cat. But you have to get it in court, first.
Laddie
Yes, an owner could go to court--my point was that they wouldn't do it by challenging MLB's anti-trust exemption.
As for the legal history--Flood lost. One of the oddities (and oft-criticized points) about Flood v Kuhn was that it criticized earlier decisions but on the basis of stare decisis refused to overturn them, leaving MLB's anti-trust exemption in place.
Hiram, you're right. Flood lost that battle but won the war, and he would not have, had he not challenged the anti-trust exemption.
Of course they could challenge the anti-trust exemption. It's been 2 generations since the Flood case. You go into court with all guns blazing, and you negotiate away the stuff you don't care about to get the result you want. No judge is going to want to make a ruling on the anti-trust issues, so he is more likely to grant compulsory arbitration in return for the plaintiffs dropping the anti-trust portion of their complaint.
Anti-trust is a big howitzer in that war, so why not use it. There is absolutely no guarantee that a modern court would uphold anti-trust. It would depend upon the judge. Just the threat of having it re-adjudicated will get everyone's attention.
First rule of sorcery: Never call up what you cannot put back down.
Anti-trust as a bluff could blow up in everybody's face, big time. The payoff for that risk would have to be much better than media rights.
Of course, OTOH, the league and the owners all said that free agency would be the end of baseball as we knew it. And they were right, sort of. But it didn't kill the game, did it?
Come to think of it, some of them probably said that about integration, too.
So maybe it is "a big howizer" at that, and not a big nuclear doomsday bomb.
We now return you to "Clinched or Clenched?" already in progress.
That sounds painful. :-)
Section 3, My Sun Monster Sofa said...
We now return you to "Clinched or Clenched?" already in progress.
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