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Associated Press photo Ross Detwiler was roughed up for seven runs (three earned) in only 2 1/3 innings. |
ST. LOUIS -- They wanted to get this thing over with.
Sure, it's always nice to celebrate at home in front of your own fans, but the Nationals have been inching toward their first-ever division title for quite a while now, and each day that passes without them finishing it off feels like a wasted day, another day in which Davey Johnson feels forced to play all of his regulars instead of giving them a pre-postseason breather.
So the Nationals desperately wanted to celebrate at Busch Stadum Sunday afternoon, either via their own win over the Cardinals or an admittedly unlikely Braves loss at Turner Field.
"I mean, we just want to do it," shortstop Ian Desmond said. "It doesn't matter where it's at."
Well, if they do it now, it will have to take place at Nationals Park. The worst-case combination of Atlanta's 6-2 win over the Mets and Washington's 10-4 loss in St. Louis leaves the magic number stuck on 1 and leaves the Nationals trying again for the clinch Monday night at home, with John Lannan on the mound against a Phillies club that was already eliminated from postseason contention over the weekend.
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129 comments:
If the Nats can't win one game out of three at home over a team with nothing to play for (and that they beat two out of three in their park when they did) they don't deserve to win the division.
Great. I can hear busloads of Phoolies, gunning their engines, now..... Let's not take this thing down to the wire, huh....?
Kind of agree. What does that say about how you will perform when ( and if) you get there?
Thank you for accurately portraying what happened here.
Yuck, just yuck. That one was deflating. Just try to shower it off and head for home, sweet home. FP put out the Nat signal. It's time to get after it tomorrow.
For the Nats to miss the Divisonal Series, they would have to lose 6 in a row, including the tiebreak game and play-in games at home. That seems unlikely.
Neganons back; great.
Let's do a reverse woooo hooo:
OHHHHH OWWWWW!
We'll get 'em tomorrow!
does no one find it poetic that Lannen could possibly clinch against Phillies at home?
Yes Lannan clinch is poetic and it will happen. GYFNG!
Well, for once, WODL said something sensible.
For the Nats to miss the Divisonal Series, they would have to lose 6 in a row, including the tiebreak game and play-in games at home. That seems unlikely.
That probably describes Davey's thinking to a tee.
Try to remember what Gio said. It's entertainment and "We are gonna put on a good show for you guys."
Tell me this isn't a good show.
Just finished reading the game thread comments. That was a mistake. Anyhoo, tomorrow is another day.
Especially sine (1) the Nats longest losing streak this season has been five, (2) IIRC, the Nats have not lost two series in a row this season, and (3) the Nats have been swept at home only once (by the Yankees back in June)
First question is about Wang. Davey didn't want to use Stammen, wanted to get more out of him and not burn the pen. Pretty much what we expected him to say. Didn't say he messed up, but it was kind of implicit. Also said he doesn't put our best foot forward when we're behind (kind of supporting NatsLady's theory.)
He likes clinching at home. That's the silver lining I guess.
Not upset over at a team loss to a team like the cards. What worrisome is in 2 of the 3 this weekend our starting pitchers didn't give the TEAM a chance.
Remember the 2004 Red Sox. They had to go thru their arch enemy to win it all. For us its the Phillies. Tomorrow night we get ours and yes it would be Poetic Justice if Lannan to get the clincher.
It takes a great deal of forbearance to ignore egomaniacs.
Davey's explanation was not particularly cogent, but it was clear that he was disgusted with Wang's performance. I didn't hear him say anything about letting Wang bat specifically. I think Mr. Wang has pitched his last for the Washington Nats and for that, we can all be thankful.
The only thing I don't like about this game is Detwiler's performance. I don't care about CMW, he is not a factor in the postseason. But right now we are going in with Gio, JZ (shoulder?) and EJax (.500?).
Give Gio all the whispering he needs, he'll deliver. JZ will deliver even if he's hurting. Ejax will deliver 1/2 the time. That's not enough. I'm not going to be in the Legion of Doom, I've been totally optimistic all season. But Detwiler worries me. I don't want to have to depend on Lannan.
I agree with the silver-lining comments here -- clinching at home, with massive crowds screaming, and big dog piles, against the Phillies would sure be great!
Detwiler is fine and has pitched well in big games this year, most notably on a Sunday against the Braves. He certainly did not deserve to be attributed the sole blame for this loss.
Wonk, agree. I don't even care if it's the Pirates winning because I feel for them and I am a big McCutch fan.
yeah, IF Lannan comes up big tomorrow, I wonder if Davey will be tempted with Lannan over Det for the first series.
I'm certainly glad that I had the "foresight" to grab Points tickets for tomorrow's game... back in July.
Here is how I apportion the blame:
Detwiler 60%
Wang 20%
Danny 10% (maybe, but he made up for it)
Davey 10%
I'm sorry, but when you give up 5 walks, I don't know how many hits and a HR in the less than three innings you pitch you have not done your job. I'm sorry Danny didn't make a doubleplay. But you have to overcome that and you didn't.
Even better to clinch with Philthies in our house. Just meant to be. No worries about our boys. They got us this far. Farther than most had predicted this year. Enjoying the ride.
Mathematical certitude must be a wonderful gift to possess.
William O. Douglas Loeffler said...
For the Nats to miss the Divisonal Series, they would have to lose 6 in a row, including the tiebreak game and play-in games at home. That seems unlikely.
If the Nats lose three to Philly and the Braves win three at Pitt, they play a tiebreaker in DC. If they lose that, they play the wild card play-in in DC. If they lose that, they're out. That's five games, not six.
Didn't they lose today, lol? 1,2,3,4,5,6....
Prediction: If Lannan pitches well tomorrow, win or lose, he will replace either Detwiler or Jackson on the postseason roster. Which one will depend on who they're playing. If it's Atlanta, he'll replace Jackson so they can go heavy on the lefties. Anyone else, it's probably Detwiler he'd replace.
So, I just went online and got two tix for tomorrow's game via the WaPo $2 promo. (Impulsive, much? Well, FP said and all. But I digress.) Not sure if my hubby will want to go (he's not home right now), so I may be flying solo. I'll be in the Upper Deckian reaches.
DannyE, you are SO right. I'm enjoying this ride. Remember, 2013 is our year. Probably should have left the champagne at home and saved the environment. I assume they sell it in St. Louis, even on Sunday.
96 wins, that is incredible. I know people hate stats and probabilities, but coolstandings.com gives the Nats 98.8% chance of winning the division. I'll take those odds. We got this.
William O. Douglas Loeffler said...
Didn't they lose today, lol? 1,2,3,4,5,6....
You said play-in games. There's only one of those.
There are no bad seats that I have seen at Nats Park.
But there would be a tiebreak game against the Braves. The best Atlanta can do is tie.
We lost, and it [stunk]. You can point the finger at one person, or at more than one person. But it won't change anything. It's over, and there's another game tomorrow. I'm going to be there. Aloha.
We would have to lose five games in a row at home and six overall, not to make it to the 3-5 series.
I don't remember anybody giving the sole blame to Ross, but you don't seem to grok at all what the big old dummy Johnson was saying. As many of us have said all year: this is not a sprint, it is a marathon. Using all of the best of you bullpen with almost seven innings to play is a high risk. If you still lose the game, you have a worn out Craig Stammon, who would then not be available for the next two games. Garcia is a wonderful pitcher that is only been used for two, or fewer innings. Gorzolony and Zack Walters are lefties that the Cards eat for lunch. Who does that leave you to get 6 2/3 innings from? Sure, maybe you can use the combo of Garcia,a lefty specialist, Clippard, and Storen. But what if you still lose 5-4, in spite of perfect relief by those guys? What have you got left in the tank tomorrow? Now, for the last 1/4 mile of the marathon you just sprinted too early to finish the race with any effectiveness.You're too winded. Johnson looks a move, or two, further ahead then most of the pundits.
Watching A's M's. M's have 11 hits and 2 runs. A's have 2 hits and 2 runs. Gotta love the A's. #Efficiency
Ever since Strasburg was shut down, the teams pitching--both starting and relief-- has gotten very shabby. This is not a good position to be in going into the playoffs.
Seamhead, I said that early on, when Davey first put CMW in. You are trying to get 6+ innings from the BP where are you getting them FROM??? You are down 5-0 and you are going to blow your bullpen on what, reasonably, is a lost cause? Nope.
You think St. Louis with the BEST offense in the league is going to get ZERO runs agains the BP and you are going to get 6+ runs against a team that is going to throw everything but the kitchen sink into the game because they haven't clinched?
Garcia is great but you are not putting him out there for FOUR innings! Stammen, the same, and he is prone to give up the occasional HR. People don't THINK, that's for sure.
How did we manage the bullpen prior to September? We have several additional arms and we still seem to always be teetering on the brink of exhaustion. If it is in fact so, then why pull Detwiler. 5 runs in 3 innings is not the worst thing ever. We saw the Cards' pitcher recover yesterday and Gio did a few games back.
One thing we all know for sure, is that for Wang, a "good" performance is one where, like last Sunday, he gives up several hits and walks and gets out of it with double plays, if he is lucky.
His WHIP is essentially double that of some of our guys.
If the bullpen is in such tired shape, then Davey probably should have left Wang in for three or four or five innings. That would have made much more sense than leaving him in just long enough to make sure the game was indeed over, and then yanking him. In fact, that seems to be the only justification for letting him bat, but then he didn't do that.
Maybe Davey just finally realized what the rest of us do about Wang. He doesn't belong on a staff of this quality, and judging from his minor league stats this year, he probably doesn't belong on any team where you draw a salary to pitch.
Just think of Wang as Ryan Perry (remember, the "human towel") and forget about it. Davey is playing for tomorrow.
Davey took Wang out because he is a human being. There have been managers that left some poor slob in there to give up 10 runs or something. That is just wrong. Davey should have done the same for Detwiler, and not let him go in for the 3rd, or taken him out after the first guy got on base. I am not happy with Davey today, but I'm not as mad at him as some people on here seem to be.
The thing with Wang has gone on all year. For some reason Johnson believes in him. He demoted Detwiler and returned him to his position and he always talks about Wang as though the guy is just about to turn into Greg Maddux.
I think we all have seen coaches who seem to have blind spots with respect to certain players and we cringe when we see them coming in again.
There are 3 games left. I think we can only assume that Wang is done, but he should not even have been on the September roster period.
I think everyone knows that the best team in baseball will lose at least 64 times this year. 26 runs in 3 games, with a blow save sandwiched in between is obviously not good, but Washington has achieved its goals this season.
Please, NJ, F&I is not missed...! I personally am a happy camper. I have ordered my playoff tickets, am wearing my playoff cap. Who knew? We just got off a .500 road trip and are a .600 team. I read that Davey says Detwiler is not in his "doghouse." Well, he's in mine, but I guess Davey is still managing the team. LOL.
Det has a real problem pitching on the road. Depends on the match ups, but I would consider replacing him with Lannan if the game is on the road. His last outing, he admitted to having nerves. I don't like having to clinch against Philly, when they are salivating to be the spoiler. Makes me nervous. I underestimated the importance of Stras, and I think we are entering the playoffs with real problems with our pitching, never a good thing. But I never expected them to win the WS, I just don't want them to collapse.
I've got my freshly printed tix for Monday and I'm ready to be part of the celebration. We, as fans, need to get out to Nats park tomorrow and show this team our support - they've earned it!
The Phils would like nothing better than to deprive the Nats of a division title. They will be super motivated to take us out. These boys need everything they've got tomorrow. Just wrap it up! This uncertainty is giving me ulcers.
The Pirates are motivated also. Don't forget them. I haven't.
We get one break - Ryan Howard is out with a broken toe.
WODL,you've made your point,you don't like Wang, and I understand where you are coming from, but can we change the record now? Good grief, a week ago some here never wanted to see Burnette ever throw another pitch for us, others wanted to throw Clip under the bus.Others want to bench Espy for Lombo, still others want to bench Morse for Bernadina.A couple of others nicknamed our new catcher KSuck after two games Another wanted to put Harper on the 15 day DL.I could go on. And on. They are human. They are not perfect. Very few ball players are.
Well said, Joe S. I would add that very few humans are perfect, either (well actually, none of them, imho). I know that I'm not. :-)
sm13, I am not sure Ryan Howard being out is a good thing for us. Actually, I'm pretty sure it is not a good thing as Darin Ruf will play his natural position, 1B, instead of LF. He is known as a plus first baseman.He also seems to think he can hit.
1A, wait---you're not perfect? When did that happen?
Would love to be a fly on the wall on the plane ride home. Hope Davey is reminding the boys they are a good team full of talent and then he goes for a round of golf tomorrow.
Given our history with him, I'll take my chances with a Howard-less lineup.
By the way, where has Fear & Ignorance gone?
I think he changed his name to William O. Douglas Loeffler.
Born that way, NatsLady. :-)
Agree re. the plane ride home. I was just thinking about that.
There's a couple of MIA's that I don't miss. 'nuff said.
I just got two tickets in 315 on stub hub for tomorrow. Also going on Weds. The Stub Hub tickets were disappearing pretty quickly in the IF Gallery. Twice I hit "purchase" only to get a "Sorry, Charlie" message. Colbert pitched today, so we won't see him this series.Halladay looks to be shutdown. Kendrick pitches tomorrow.Gio tenetively goes for us on Tuesday vs. TBA. Cliff Lee is scheduled for them on Weds. Tuesday's weather is suspect.
People don't THINK, that's for sure.
Respecting JoeS's request, I'm not going to weigh in further on this topic, but that was unnecessary NL. (And empirically incorrect as well.)
I'd just as soon the players saved their golf playing for the off season at this point, although I suppose it doesn't hurt if Davey wants to do it.
So the player formerly known as Gascanrahan blew the save today and the Reds returned the favor for McCutcheon's walkoff with a 9th inning comeback in Pittsburgh. We're now tied with the Reds for 1st seed. So these games against Philly will mean something even if we prevail.
Tomorrow night's game is particularly important to win. If we clinch tomorrow, setting up Gio to pitch Game 1 of the NLDS will be easier. If we need him to go all out on Tuesday to clinch the East, he probably won't be our Game 1 pitcher unless we're the No. 1 seed.
Just updated the article with postgame quotes from Davey, Detwiler, Wang, Espinosa and Desmond, plus more stuff for anyone who'd like to read it again.
Mark, hows Northwestern, lucky or good or both
Thanks Mark. You can feel the tension in some of those quotes. A few early runs will, hopefully, soothe those nerves.
Mark
Thanks for the update. Frustrating loss today. Tomorrow night will be better.
Has it occurred to anyone that Atlanta has absolutely no reason to want to tie us for the East Div title?
It would mean they would have to win two games to get into the NLDS instead of just one, use up both Medlin and Huston, and truly complicate their situation.
I am concerned about Det and Ejac. The loss is fine, Cards needed this game more than us. However,I did not expect Det to pitch so poorly and I wonder if there are real concerns about playoff starters?
let me add one more thing, The Wang experiment was a gallant and noble thing.... I am done with him, a waste of payroll, live and learn
Mick. Look at Davey's comments about Det. Plus Det's comments. We can worry for them. They are not worried. Plus i think it will be sweeter to beat the Phoolies at home.
That is true. I mean, how much is one extra home game in the next round that may or not materialize, even worth. The Braves would have a do or die game to win, either way. This is all set up to gin up fan interest. NCNatsie takes the gold. The Nats clinched on Saturday.
Davey's really not helping himself the last 2 games. CMW should be gone now. Where's Gorzo??? I'm concerned about Burnie and Clippard, let's see how Garcia and Duke do against the Phillies. Let's give these "extra pitchers" a real test-drive before the playoffs.
Captain Hook should be quicker with ... the hook. We've got a full, healthy 'Pen. Let 'em work!
The Nats have given Lannan the ball 5 times this year, and he is 4-0, the highest win rate of any Nats starter. Chances are the Nats win with Lannan, tomorrow. The guy seems to be on a mission.
The only game he lost was the one where Al Porter would not give him the low strike, and that threw off his whole game. Joe West gave him the low strike last time out and he only walked one guy, when he was tiring and just before he was taken out. That game was against the Phillies last week, and the Nats got a big win.
Sometimes, patience pays off (Lannan), and sometimes it does not (Wang). The Nats obsession with CMW is starting to look like the Garret Mock saga, all over again. But keeping Lannan has paid off for the Nats when it mattered the most.
I think he does it, again, tomorrow night.
There is no issue with Lannan, he is a competitor and he worked his rear end off in the minors. Wang is a nice young man, but I think his work ethic and preparation is terrible.
If Lannan wins tomorrow, there's no way Rizzo leaves him off postseason roster.
I gotta get to park tomorrow to be part of history!!!
Great point NCNatsie. Would they rather play the Nats in DC or the Cards in ATL for their first do or die game? I imagine this is a situation not contemplated by the designers of the 2 Wild Card berth playoff system.
And if they manage to tie the Nats and beat them in a tiebreaking game for the NL East, their reward is probably heading West to play the Giants. Crazy stuff.
In any event, there are six games left between the Nats and Braves, and we need a positive result in only one of those games. I still say: "We got this."
Who is starting tomorrow? I ask because ESPN's schedule says Wang is starting tomorrow but others, including Mark, say Lannan is starting. I am 99.99% certain Lannan is starting but i have to be sure.
"If Lannan wins tomorrow, there's no way Rizzo leaves him off postseason roster."
He has a very good record against the Braves. I don't know about Davey, but I would use Lannan in any series with the Braves, at least.
Mick -- regarding CMW being nice young man: is that homage to Ken Beatrice, the father of DC sports talk radio?
Regarding the post season roster: I was out of town on business last week, and also out of town this weekend, so I couldn't read and post to the extent that I like to. So I ask: I've been out of the post season experience for so long I've forgotten. Do clubs alter their makeup as drastically as some here have suggested? Is it a slam dunk to not have five starters on the roster for five and seven game series?
OK, we lost today. I missed the Nats game since I was at the O's-Sox game with my O's fan son.
Interesting that the O's fans cheer differently for different events, and perhaps not as you'd expect. O's hit a HR, and of course there is cheering. But they show an out-of-town score showing the Yankees losing, and the place erupts in cheers, followed by a well-coordinated 'Yankees Suck!'. It helped that the Sox fans chimed in. :-)
I sat next to some BoSox fans who happened to also be Philly phans. Tough year for them. Still they were very complimentary of the Nats. They also said they had not yet been to Nats Park, so they are not in THAT group of phans.
OPCY is really beautiful once you are seated. However, the rest of the fan experience is pretty poor, at least compared to Nats Park.
Want food? Feel free to miss an inning because you can't see the game from Eutaw St or the concessions behind the first base line. Few TVs around either, and they don't appear to have a radio feed.
Bobblehead day today, unless you were a kid under 15!?! Then, no bobblehead for you! Why would you not give them to every payimg customer? And kids are the demographic you want to bring into the park because they eat and drink constantly. Plus, it's a Sunday, not a school day. Lots of ticked off kids today, I can tell you.
Nats come home, chance to clinch tomorrow.
GYFNG!!!
Dear Stephen Strasburg,
We miss you.
Wang is a nice young man, but I think his work ethic and preparation is terrible.
Truth is he actually probably worked 500 time harder than did John Lannan in his entire life. Coming back from that kind of career ending surgery was nothing short of Herculean.
So, NO ONE should take that away from Chien-Ming Wang NO ONE. However, as many here surmised, quite early on, there was little chance he would again be a major league pitcher at his age, with just one pitch in his arsenal, with that injury history.
Hopefully, Davey will finally admit that as well.
As for Lannan he would have to literally beat out 1 of the 4 starters to be on the playoff roster. He's not a reliever. I'm not sure he replaces EJax. I don't think he replaces Detwiler against Atlanta or any team. And you aren't going to see him replacing Zimmermann or Gio ... so short of an injury I don't think you'll see him.
He'd literally have to throw a no-hitter or something pretty damned close against the Phillies. At a minimum last more than 5 because the bullpen is pretty beat right now. And if Lannan can't pick them up?
Dear Stephen Strasburg,
We miss you.
There's a pretty decent chance Strasburg gets bombed out as well. That's been historically the case with young pitchers coming off Tommy John's.
They paid EJax 11 million for a single year to pick up for Stras. Its time he delivered the goods.
NCNatsie, if the Braves tie us, they'll only need to win one of two games, instead of needing to win one out of one. First they play the Nats; if they win, they're in. If they lose, then they play the other wild card team. So a win in either game advances them.
I think I've got that right.
Also, it's really really really unlikely that they'll even get to that point, no matter what they want.
It occurs to me, by the way, that the Nats have spared us any real heart-rending, close losses lately. They're getting their brains bashed in, or winning a squeaker. My memory may be off, of course. In any event, I'll gladly take this one small grace.
Scooter, you're right, and I meant to say "could" instead of "would", the point being that by making the tie, they would gain nothing, because they still have to win at least one game to get to the NLDS, and perhaps two, if they lost the first one, which would be on the road at that. And if they lost it, they would be be in the same situation than they are anyway, except they would have used up one of their starters in the process. Hence I see no reason why they would want to do it.
Scooter and Natsie. Good points. I guess that raises the question of why Fredi would bring in Kimbrel today, up by 4 runs. Just to get him another save? At a certain point, he's got to want to rest his starters and his pen, even if there is a still a mathematical chance to catch the Nats. That doesn't mean they are going to try to lose games, but if he goes into the WC game with Kimbrel having pitched every day for a week, that's a problem, right?
I think we will see the winner of the season's series be the tiebreaker in the future, if they stick to this format. One extra home game in the NLDS and fifty cents will buy you a cup of coffee, not to mention that it might not even give you any extra play-off games at home. The 3 of 5 series is a travesty and it has been since 1969.
MLB got rid of it in the 90's and then brought it right back. As far as I can see, except for the basic human emotion of wanting to come out on top, Atlanta's profit maximizing choice is to not tie Washington for first place.
Tomorrow. We do it tomorrow...at home, with a long-time Nat on the mound.
I believe. I expect it. Tomorrow is a new day.
The odds against the Nats not making the NLDS are very, very low. The odds that the Nats win the NLDS, regardless of opponent, are close to fifty percent.
You may not like Billy Beane but I stand by his famous statement that he doesn't even bother working in the post-season....
I just read Adam Berry's post-game interview with Davey. The man's got cojones of steel. In another life he'd be an odds maker in Vegas.
Det may have come a long way this year, but he still has a ways to go, particularly with his pitch selection game plan.
So the Angels lost today, putting themselves on the brink of elimination from the Wild Card chase. I'm loving the possibility that neither the Angels nor the Marlins, who were the teams that supposedly "won" the free agent sweepstakes this past winter, will make the playoffs. And same for the Dodgers and their attempt to buy a new lineup at the trade deadline. Sweet.
Interesting comparison about Camden Yards vs. Nats Park. Both deserve kudos for not having corporate names. Both are great parks. I actually think Camden Yards hurt the O's overall because baseball in Baltimore became more about the stadium than the team.
I think it was pretty obvious that Busch Stadium and Nats Park are very close in age and design. Both are on rivers and have a similar look and feel.
My feeling is that Nats Park has better sight lines than Camden Yards. Camden Yards is easier for anyone from Maryland not from Charles or PG County, or inner Monty County to get to.
Which is prettier, Camden Yards or Nats Park? Showalter says that anyone who even questions this is embarrassing himself. I am not sure that I agree. Nats Park feels real in a way that Camden Yards does not. In some ways, I preferred Memorial Stadium to Camden Yards, which at times feels a bit too much as though it were designed by the creators of the movie Field of Dreams. The brickwall behind the outfield is nice, but then again I don't remember that brick wall being there before the stadium was built, which basically makes it a Disneyfied prop.
Ultimately, I don't recall anyone ever talking about whose stadium was prettier until the building of Camden Yards, and in that sense, Camden Yards is a complete and utter failure, just like walk-up music and all the other extraneous garbage.
How good is your team?
Once again, just because people question Davey Johnson on here does not in any way, matter, shape or form mean that people do not love, admire and respect Davey Johnson.
Guys who love chess and who huge fans of Bobby Fischer or whoever, will go through games of Fischer's and cut him to shreds.
It doesn't mean they no longer love or admire or respect him. It means they love the game enough to try to elevate each and every single aspect of it by spending precious moments of a limited lifespan evaluating it. It is the ultimate compliment.
William,
So are you saying nats park > camden yards?
I mean I love nats park and think its underrated, but Camden Yards is pretty historical (well, revolutionary might be a more appropriate term).
And for the drive, I come down 81 to 70 (past Hagerstown through Frederick, through Rockville, etc) and find it to be a pretty easy drive until getting into DC.
I think Camden Yards is two things at once. I think it is the greatest example of manipulative architecture in baseball history, to the point that people stopped caring about the Orioles and went to the games for the Stadium. I remember a game towards the end of Ripken's career where I was sorry the game ended because I was having so much fun chatting and eating. I have no idea if the O's won or lost.
Camden Yards was built to evoke certain images and feelings in the psyches of baseball fans. Before that, stadiums tended to be functional. The game was the spectacle and the things we like now in Fenway and Wrigley tended to be due to the constraints that the urban environment imposed.
I think Nats Park should have been put either on the site of RFK or near Howard University, where Griffith was. It would have been easier for many DC area, as opposed to NoVa fans, with respect to Metro and driving in.
It wasn't and that ship has sailed. I will say that the area around the park is gorgeous and far, far, safer and nicer than any time in the last 30 years. Nats Park feels real and Section 222 has perfect sight lines. If you had $5 beer, you might really have something.
The former site of Griffith is now HUH hospital, and not available. One of the four sites discussed at the time was a bit south of there, near New York Avenue. I understand lack of parking possibilities was a serious drawback there, though.
Section 222 said...
Great point NCNatsie. Would they rather play the Nats in DC or the Cards in ATL for their first do or die game? I imagine this is a situation not contemplated by the designers of the 2 Wild Card berth playoff system.
You better believe the Braves would want to play a tiebreaker game in DC, after trailing the Nats in the standings for four months and coming back from being 8.5 games behind with 19 games to go. It wouldn't be a do or die game for the Braves either, because they would have nothing to lose and everything to gain, since they would come in with the same wild card berth they've had all along and could leave with the division title that puts them directly into the NLDS. If they lose, they're back to the wild card game that they had all along. And if the Braves force a tiebreaker game, even though it's in DC it will be advantage Braves, since it puts the Nats in jeopardy of losing the division title they've had in their grasp for four months and having to play the do or die wild card game. In a tiebreaker game, the Nats are the only team with something to lose.
While burning up all their pitchers and having to travel twice....
NCNatsie's point is based upon two fairly obvious points. One, resources, i.e., pitching arms, are finite. Two, MLB grants essentially zero reward for having the best record over all, or being a division winner. Everyone knows this.
NCNatsie is correct.
I hear you William. Great observations and opinions, i really enjoyed it (as a break from the norm of conversations).
If I were running the Braves, I would want to play a tie breaker with the Nats, but I would use my number 4 or 5 starting pitcher and save the number 1 for the play-in game. That way I would have everything to gain and nothing to lose.
Two, MLB grants essentially zero reward for having the best record over all, or being a division winner. Everyone knows this.
The reward for being a division winner is immediate entry into the NLDS without having to win a one game play-in. That reward goes to the division winner whether they get there via winning a tiebreaker or not. There is no team in any division that wouldn't gladly play a 163rd game for the chance to avoid having to win a play-in game before getting into the division series. Having to burn a pitcher has nothing to do with it. If they burn the pitcher and win the tiebreaker game, their reward is not having to burn another pitcher in an absolute do or die game. That's a gamble worth taking.
I don't discount the momentum advantage that catching the Nats would give the Braves. That's certainly a factor in deciding which scenario the Braves would really like to see happen.
The fact remains that if they catch the Nats and beat them in the tiebreaker, they are definitely not getting the No. 1 seed. (The Reds won their season series with the Braves.) That means that if they are the NL East Champ, they are not going to get to play the depleted Wild Card winner in the NLDS, which is the real advantage to being a division champ instead of the Wild Card winner. (The other advantage of being a division winner is that you don't have to use your own No. 1 pitcher in one game playoff to reach the NLDS, but the Braves would have to use theirs in the tiebreaker.)
Now if they end up losing to the Nats in DC in the tiebreaker, they have to go back home and play the wild card game without the even one day of rest that the schedule provides the Wild Card teams if there is no tiebreaker. And they would have to use up both their No. 1 and No. 2 pitchers (Medlen/Hudson) in order to get to the NLDS.
So the advantage of catching the Nats is having two chances to win a game and get to the NLDS. And the disadvantage is being just as or even more worn out once they get there. Tough call. But if I'm Fredi G., I'm going to think long and hard about how hard I'm going to work my bullpen this week.
Anyway, this is all purely hypothetical, because the Nats are going to win the division. :-)
SonnyG10 said...
If I were running the Braves, I would want to play a tie breaker with the Nats, but I would use my number 4 or 5 starting pitcher and save the number 1 for the play-in game. That way I would have everything to gain and nothing to lose.
Exactly. The tiebreaker is an opportunity to avoid the play-in game entirely. Why not give it a shot?
Good point SonnyG. Since there are no days off between the end of the season (Oct. 3) and the tiebreaker game (Oct. 4), their options are limited. Medlen pitched today so he's probably not available until the WC game at the earliest. They could start Minor on regular rest or Hudson on extra rest. That's an interesting choice. Start Hudson and give yourself a better shot at having Medlen for game 1 of the NLDS (but not Hudson until game 3), or start Minor and hope for the best, knowing you have Medlen for the WC game if necessary, with Hudson then ready for game 1 if you get there.
I'd love to know what Fredi would do, but not enough to hope that this extremely unlucky eventuality comes to pass.
Speaking of bullpens, Fredi already announced O'Flaherty won't "be available" for the next few days (sore back).
Your morning glass of Koolaid courtesy of Boz
There were some good points made last night & I enjoyed the comparision of parks as well. My son & I will often walk the long way around to 308 from the scoreboard just to stop and look out at the Anacostia. I had season tickets to the O's when I first came back to this area but for some reason, it just wasn't "my" team. These guys ARE my team and I am worried about how we are entering the Post Season.
I do agree that it looks like we will win the division with just one of 6 outcomes needed, but I am not happy with our pitching the last few weeks. Way too many inconsistent outings from our starters and to me that is the key to the playoffs. I do think that once they shut Strasburg down, things changed. I was hoping the others would rise to the occasion and I think Gio has, the others are either hurt or tired or mentally unfocused.
OK, another day, another hat and I will have really nice seats tonight thanks to Red Carpet seats from my other group members. I will miss 308 but 130 will be the place I hope to watch history!!!
Go Nats!! Score First!! Win the Division!!
Rabbit, Rabbit!
GYFNG!!!
Ahhhh, its a new day!
And it's a new month, too and I hope October looks better than September did. I have our September record at 16 - 12 - is that right? I know we played some very competitive and tough teams, except the cubs and mets, who we handled well. I think that makes us the only team with a winning record in every single month. BUT -- and there is always a but -- I just haven't felt that the team looked good, especially in the last couple of weeks. I also think that we are the second youngest team in the majors? That youth and inexperience factor has got to be playing a part in this, no matter what the players and coaches say.No excuse for EJax and I am kind of concerned about the starting pitching. Turn over the calendar, take a breath and finish this thing off - my nerves are shot. Did you guys hear that the O's had a fire on their plane and had to make an emergency landing? Can you even imagine? Crazy stuff. These guys do log a lot of air miles.
They just want to dog-pile on the mound at Nats Park. And who could blame them?
swami, yes, 16-12 is what I have for September. I understand Davey was irritated with EJax--as he should be. It's one thing to lose a game, but he should be going deeper than he did Friday, that's his job as the "Livo" replacement. Maybe it was nerves, but I'm more inclined to suspect something physical, like an aching shoulder, that kept him off-kilter. As a person with chronic pain, I can tell you that even a slight increase of pressure bums me out.
More puzzling--and worrisome to me--is Detwiler.
Did you guys hear that the O's had a fire on their plane and had to make an emergency landing?
The O's are HOT!
Yah, the O's charter jet was some older plane and had a galley fire. Angelos trying to save more cash.
Cashin on MASN as he says.
Maybe they were trying to cook up a special MASN deal. Or not. :-)
Random thoughts:
- Lannan will NOT be on the post season roster (unless one of our top 4 starters get hurt). No way.
- Camden Yards is just a better ballpark the Nationals Park. I get what your saying about not being able to see the field if you get a hot dog, but the outside looks like a baseball park, Nationals Park looks like an office biulding.
- Where are my strips? I have not gotten my playoff strips (nor a tracking number that they are on their way). Does anyone out there have an update???
OK, we do like the excitement of down-to-the-wire races. But that is enough excitement for now. Just clinch it tonight, boys.
Go NATS!
Someone here said: Wang is a nice young man, but I think his work ethic and preparation is terrible.
Me: How do we know he is a nice young man? In my book, nice young men don't cheat on their wife. I'm just saying...
I've read good things about his work ethic in the past. I'm pretty sure he's not the first ballplayer to cheat on his wife. Not that I'm in favor of it. I'm just saying. I agree that he stunk up the joint yesterday, but he wasn't alone in that. :-)
Tcostant, I'm wondering about Lannan/postseason also. If he wins tonight, would you put him on the roster over Gorzelanny? I understand he's not a reliever, but let's say the same thing happens in a playoff game with EJax or Detwiler--they go 3 innings or less--who would you want to bring in, Gorzy or Lannan?
Tcostant, I have not gotten my strip, nor a tracking number. But in discussion a couple of days ago it was pointed out you can print your tickets out on line. IOW, the tickets you are getting via FedEx or UPS are commemorative. I still want them, of course.
Saw on another site that an O's fan had gotten his, but an Atlanta fan had not gotten his. Picture seems to be mixed.
NCNatsie, I guess I'm just not understanding your point. Sorry if I muddied the waters.
One thing I know we can agree on: it ultimately won't matter what the Braves want, because the Nats ARE going to clinch in these next few days.
Natsfan1a: I've read good things about his work ethic in the past. I'm pretty sure he's not the first ballplayer to cheat on his wife. Me: While I agree, I wouldn't ne calling him a nice young man then.
NatdLady: Lannan/postseason, I think Lannan has filled his purpose, to eat some of those Strasburg innings. I still rather have Gorzelanny or even Dukes as a long guy in the playoffs, but I expect Lannan playoff spot to be taken by Christian Garcia; who I'm very impressed with.
Should we as fans worry that the Nats have Gio and JZimm, but mediocre starting pitching behind them? EJax and Det looked just terrible in their starts. I'm hoping that the latter two really pick up their games.
GYFNG!!! Let's take the division tonight!
I'm wondering about Lannan/postseason also. If he wins tonight, would you put him on the roster over Gorzelanny?
Of course not. You'd put him on the roster over Detwiler or Jackson. If he pitches well tonight, that would be three strong outings out of his last four, much better than either Det or Jax over that timeframe. He would definitely be a good choice to replace one of them on a 4-man playoff series roster. Too bad he can't replace them both.
As for Gorzelanny, he could easily find himself replaced by Garcia and Duke in an 8-man bullpen for the playoffs. It's no coincidence that Gorz has not been seen much at all during September.
Yes, I expect Garcia to take the "5th starter" spot in the bullpen unless Davey decides to give it to a bench player (DeRosa). I don't think he would pick Dukes over Gorzy, but I think it's a little closer between Lannan and Gorzy.
Tcostant, I have not gotten my strip, nor a tracking number. But in discussion a couple of days ago it was pointed out you can print your tickets out on line.
If/when they make them available for transfer on MyNationalsTickets you should be able to. But they still haven't done that yet. I just checked.
I suggest you call/email them and ask about alternative delivery options such as printing them out so you can pick them up at the ballpark this week. That's what I'm doing, since with a day job there's no way I can sit at home waiting for them to show up.
When Ejax and Detwiler are "on" they are both better pitchers than Lannan when he is "on." The problem is, the former two have not been consistent in September. Lannan had a bad outing also but got away with it, so he hasn't been perfect either. I was 100% with the crew who said Lannan would not be in the postseason until the last week or so. Now I'm not so sure.
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