 |
US Presswire photo Even if he's not in the big leagues Aug. 31, Eury Perez could appear in the playoffs. |
You've probably been vaguely aware of this deadline in the past but never really had to consider the ins and outs of it. Rest assured, you're not alone. I've had to learn more about all this myself, and even the Nationals front-office folks I talked to the last couple days admitted they had to take something of a crash course on the subject because they've never needed to be experts before.
So consider this an entry-level class in the suddenly pertinent matter of playoff roster construction...
You've probably heard plenty of times before that all postseason rosters must be set by August 31. But that's not entirely true. The only thing that must be set by the end of the month is the pool of players who are eligible to appear in the postseason. And even then, there are exceptions that allow more players to be added at the last minute.
The only real significance of the August 31 deadline is that it marks the final day in which a player can be acquired from another organization and be eligible to participate in the postseason. So the Nationals can't trade for someone on Sept. 1 and use him in October.
That doesn't mean a player must be on the active, big-league roster on August 31 to be eligible for the playoffs. Anyone on the 25-man roster, plus anyone on the disabled list, bereavement list or suspended list is eligible.
So that makes this the Nationals' initial pool of roster candidates (we're going to assume there are no changes in the next seven days)...
Pitchers (12): Sean Burnett, Tyler Clippard, Ross Detwiler, Gio Gonzalez, Michael Gonzalez, Tom Gorzelanny, Edwin Jackson, Ryan Mattheus, Craig Stammen, Drew Storen, Stephen Strasburg, Jordan Zimmermann
Catchers (2): Jesus Flores, Kurt Suzuki
Infielders (6): Ian Desmond, Danny Espinosa, Adam LaRoche, Steve Lombardozzi, Chad Tracy, Ryan Zimmerman
Outfielders (5): Roger Bernadina, Bryce Harper, Tyler Moore, Michael Morse, Jayson Werth
Disabled list (6): Mark DeRosa, Cole Kimball (60-day), Wilson Ramos (60-day), Henry Rodriguez, Jhonatan Solano, Chien-Ming Wang
So that's 31 eligible players. But wait, there's more.
If any one of those 31 players is injured at the start of any postseason series, the Nationals can replace them with any other player from the organization (provided they were acquired by August 31).
Ramos will remain on the DL at season's end, so that's a playoff roster spot that can be given to someone else, whether they're on the 40-man roster or not. And it's not a stretch to think any one of those other players currently on the DL could still be there come October, opening more spots.
Which means September call-ups can be used in the postseason. That opens the door for potential additions like Corey Brown, Eury Perez, John Lannan and others we may see over the season's final month.
And truthfully, it opens the door for anyone else in the organization to be a part of October baseball. Not that this would happen in a million years, but even a guy like Carlos Alvarez (who you may remember as the fake Esmailyn Gonzalez, currently a 26-year-old shortstop at short-season Class A Auburn) could appear for the Nationals in the postseason, provided he was added to the 40-man roster.
The whole thing may sound a bit convoluted, but there's really only one key point you have to remember: If a player is in the organization on August 31 (and is still there at the end of the regular season) he's eligible for the playoffs.
Something you probably never thought about before. Certainly something I never did.
139 comments:
+1
natsfan1a said...
Good morning and thank you, Barry Zito. :-)
August 24, 2012 6:41 AM
Pa Pa Pa PLAYOFFS!!!! Oh my how far we have come to actually be contemplating the roster.
I know that the Nats have played well against the Braves this year, but I admit that some part of me wants them to gak it up and miss the playoffs altogether. I will definitely be a Giants fan the next few days.
The team that benefits from these rules the most may well be the Reds. They have Billy Hamilton and his record 147 steals this year available for the playoffs. He seems to be as close to a Rickey Henderson lock for stolen bases any time he gets on, and he can get on any time the Reds want him to be a late-inning pinch runner.
+1/2St.
Pinch me, I must be dreaming. POST SEASON plans. I'm in.
I hope the long-suffering John Lannan is in plan somehow. BTW, last year I was one of the prime Lannan bashers.
This is sort of related. It seems to me being on the 40-man is key to this conversation. To play in October, you have to play in September (I'll, of course, listen patiently to anyone who wants to argue Rendon could be called up from the AFL to play in the NLCS). To play in September in the bigs, you have to be on 40-man. We have one name on the 40-man screaming out at us as unlikely to play for us again this year or ever.
Who's betting CMW gets released before next Friday?
(Completely off topic, but I tried to post it yesterday and my connection gacked)
A report, after Wednesday's game from the "Glass Half-Full Department":
1. Nats get a day off then a short easy trip to Philly while Braves fly cross-country to play SF yesterday (I'm not surprised if they lost solely on account of that) (and there's no let up for them: they are playing a crucial series now against a potential wild competitor)
2. Nats come to Philly ornery and hungry after failing to sweep
3. Desi didn't hurt his hammy
4. We'll miss Hamels this weekend (clearly their best starter)
5. Nats entered the Braves series 5 games up, finish it 6 games up, and the season got shortened by 3 games.
6. (Adding this one today): Braves seven games behind in the loss column.
smile
http://www.coolstandings.com/baseball_team.asp?id=WAS&sn=2012
Hang on just a sec (OMG OMG OMG this is sooooo awesom3!!1! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!). Okay, I'm back. You were saying?
Seriously, I was talking to my Chicago baseball buddy, who hasn't been following that closely, and, after commiserating about the Cubbies, I asked whether she was up on Nats doings. She's like, "Do they still have a shot at the playoffs?" and I'm like, "ummmmm, kinda." We decided that if/when it happens, I might just spontaneously combust, with only my Nats baseball bracelet and tennies left behind. At least I would have gone out happy. :-) Unfortunately, she won't be able to make it here this fall, so I suspect we may be burning up the interwebz and phone lines.
On another P-word note, because there were 100 runs scored throughout MLB on Wednesday, one can purchase Papa John's pizza at 50% off on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
And as a result of that, here's another new concept we're going to have to consider: the August 31 playoff roster deadline.
OK: cats out of the bag now that everyone is talking playoffs in earnest. If they don't make it, everyone jinxed it.
Can't find out anything about playoff matchups, i.e., who plays who after the WC one-gamer. Anyone?
All good points but isn't it 6.5 games, DC Wonk?
1a,
Wonk said 7 games behind in the LOSS column which is true. A 6.5 lead for our Nats over all.
Joe marketing, it depends on the records of the teams that are in the mix. See this piece.
Yep, turned off the Braves game in the 7th. Glad they held onto the Win.
Hanson got knocked around and he and Hudson are becoming 2 of their 3 worst in their 6 man rotation.
That extra game in the loss column is huge at this point in the season.
1A..
Is there a code for that 50% off? I am a sucker for that deal!
Wonk's point is we are 7 ahead in the loss column only, but now 6.5 up overall.
Also had a similar conversation with my mom yesterday. She asked me how many games I have been too and how bad the addiction was. I fessed up that by the end of the season (not counting any possible "P" games), that I will have gone to about 40 games. She thinks I need an intervention. My dad tried to make her a baseball fan for 52 years, and it didn't work. I think he considered it his biggest failure in life ;-)
Last night should've been the Barves easiest game. They face Vogelsong tonight and Bumgartner on Saturday and Timmy J on Sunday.
Here's hoping all Giants pitchers are throwing Aces this weekend.
D'oh! Sorry about that Michele, it's MLB100.
Luckily, my Chicago baseball buddy understands my condition.
And thanks for the math tip, buddies. I tend to be focused on the W-L percentage.
Thanks Mark for clarifying the postseason roster rules. There could be a few interesting decisions looming for Rizzo and Davey - Tyler Moore or DeRosa? Henry in the bullpen? Lannan or Det as #4 starter?
Darn, this is fun!
It's only 9:11 am, there was no game for us last night and yet I feel hyperventilation lurking. I am so pathetic that, just reading Mark's article and the posts above, I felt my pulse rate speed up. I seriously hope that the Nats don't count Philly out this weekend. They have been playing well and are a proud organization. They would love nothing better than to teach this young,, upstart organization a lesson. That being said - still early, plenty of baseball left, blahdiblahdiblah. Go Nats!!!
Mark,
Question: Assuming Wang is activated sometime in Sept, but not for the first playoff series, is he DFA'd at that point? Or are the rules different in the playoffs where players w/o any remaining options can still be with the org even tho they are not on the active roster?
Thanks!
Thank you Mark... Finally an explaantion on expanded rosters!... great work.
Thank you Giants, 6.5 up....
swami you and I share the same sentiments, lol
My question also applies to HRod as well. I'm curious if a player can be active for subsquent series if he is excluded from the first series. Not counting my chickens, just wanted to know how things work.
Just the thought of us needing to count on HRod or Wang at any point the rest of this season terrifies me. Maybe we start over again with HRod in spring training. Still hope?
I am wondering if we retain HRod and Wang's rights in my scenario above, as opposed to relying on them. I would think it's safe to assume those two wouldn't be part of the post-season roster, but would the team continue to control HRod's contract.
Thankfully, the Smiley Gonzales fiasco no longer stings like it used to.
Because teams generally go with a shortened rotation (three, four at the most) in the playoffs, I wonder if the Nats will drop a pitcher or two in favor of someone like Eury Perez whose speed would be a real nice asset to have as a pinch-running specialist.
I'm curious if a player can be active for subsquent series if he is excluded from the first series.
At the start of each playoff series (LDS, LCS, WS, presumably also the one game WC playoff) each team selects its active roster for that series from out of the eligible list. So yes, a player can be inactive for one series and active for the next one.
Also, postseason doesn't affect team control of players at all, e.g. eligibility for arbitration or free agency. But I'm not sure if playoff time counts toward major league service time. I'm guessing it doesn't, because if it did then a player could get credit for more than one year of service time in a season.
Thanks for confirming, pRAA. So, it's safe to assume HRod arrives in Viera in February to see if he can work out his issues. Wang, OTOH, tough to see him getting another contract.
I seriously hope that the Nats don't count Philly out this weekend.
No way that'll happen -- for multiple reasons. Among them:
1. Philly's been such a thorn in their side for so many years, nobody will have forgotten that.
2. They had a day off yesterday, which will help them focus anew tonight.
3. I'm sure that the miserable loss on Wed night still tastes sour in their mouths. They probably can't wait to pound somebody -- anybody -- to exorcise that loss.
I wonder if the Nats will drop a pitcher or two in favor of someone like Eury Perez whose speed would be a real nice asset to have as a pinch-running specialist.
Would that count as an "option" or start any clocks ticking that the Nats might not want? (Or do options count only if they are "sent down"?)
Thanks Mark. We needed that explanation. At least, I did. I wish they had found a way to hang onto Izturis. They are once again very thin at middle infield.
The Braves have lost 5 of their last 6, and the young upstarts from DC have won 4 of their last 5. Looks like Tampa Bay is going to catch the Yanks, and SF is starting to pull away from the Dodgers. The Pirates are sinking, and the Cards are surging. The wild cards are going down to the wire. The way the Braves are tanking, they may not even make the NL wild card play-in game.
Watched some of the Giants-Braves, and the Braves looked demoralized, if not beaten. The Giants could easily take 3 of 4 from them.
The Nats are in the best position of anyone. No one will take the NL East away from the Nats because no one is good enough. They will have to beat themselves. That is the best the Braves can hope for. For now, it looks like the Nats, Reds and Giants, plus the wild card. The Nats have dominated both the Reds and the Giants this year.
Just sayin'.
Tampa Bay would be the worst case for a WS opponent. Their SP will be even better than ours, once SS is shut down. and they are rollin'.
I need to pace myself. Right now every game feels like game 7 to me.I have always been a huge fan of baseball in general. I know that a lot of nats fans right now are new to the game and so this kind of info that Mark is providing is helpful. One of the things that I have watched in the post-season ( stuttering over that word), is that there are often fan favorites, team veterans that are left off of the post season roster. The Giants especially left off some long-term guys and went with some newer arrivals. Warning - it's a tough time and not always pretty. I feel like every week, every series, every road trip we have been saying -- it's critical. Now, these last(!!!) weeks, it's getting down to it. Need to remember to breathe. It's a game - it's fun, right?
Perez is on the 40 man roster, so an option was already used on him when he wasn't put on the active roster at the end of spring training. Whether he plays in the postseason or not, another of his options will have to be used if he's not on the active roster coming out of spring training next year. As for his arbitration clock, even if postseason play counts toward service time it's only a few games so it wouldn't make much difference.
Yesterday: Rockies completed a four game sweep of the Mets -- beating them 1-0. Ouch.
The starter for the Mets was completely dominate (7 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 9 K's, 1 BB) and was making his major league debut (taking the place of Johan Santana, who got shut down). Starter for Colorado pitched three innings, allowed 3 H, 3 BB, but was one of the five pitchers that combined for the shutout.
Mets' woes have caused them to bring up now two rookie pitchers: Hughes and also, last month, Matt Harvey. Both of 'em look pretty darn good.
But for this year, at least, Mets fall to 20.5 games behind the Nats.
MicheleS, I am forwarding you the email from MLB.com regarding the Papa John's pizza.
Watched some of the Giants-Braves, and the Braves looked demoralized, if not beaten.
I'm sure it was because they were mentally and physically exhausted.
Lucky for us, they were exhausted on the day _before_ they have to face Voglesong and Bumgarner. Sunday will be Lincecum, who pitched pretty well last Tuesday, getting the win against the Dodgers.
And throw in: Atlanta's planned shut-down of Medlin ain't going to help them.
Perez is on the 40 man roster, so an option was already used on him when he wasn't put on the active roster at the end of spring training
Thanks!! I had forgotten he was on the 40-man.
Lucky for us, they were exhausted on the day _before_ they have to face Voglesong and Bumgarner. Sunday will be Lincecum, who pitched pretty well last Tuesday, getting the win against the Dodgers.
Yeah, much as I want the Giants to win, and even with our record against them, I would not look forward to facing them in the NLCS.
Thanks NatsLady. I just got it!
I'm not infatuated w/ Perez as a Sept./post-season pinch-runner. Stealing bases in the majors is much different from stealing bases in the minors. Pitchers have better moves; they have tricks; catchers have better arms. Runners just arriving from the minor leagues have learning curves and get picked off at an alarming rate.
Both Corey Brown and Zach Walters have decent wheels if what you want is speed on the basepaths, not necessarily stolen bases. Walters also could fill a significant need for a backup middle infielder. If Johnson gets desperate for a PR in the late innings, just to get around the bases more quickly (e.g., for Morse or Tracy or some such), he's always got Jackson.
pRAA with good solid knowledge of the option situation and the playoffs.
Just to add to the playoffs, while we don't know the teams, we do know that the team with the best record will play the first two games at the team that wins the wildcard playin game. The team with the 2nd best record will play the first two games at #3. This is a one year deal and after this year,the top two seeds will start at home.
I read Mark's article and re-read. Strasburg will be pitching into Sept. When they "shut him down" does he go on the dl?, or does he just sit in the dugout as a member of the team. I realize we will be bringing LannEn and others up after Sept 1 so there is no need to juggle things when they name their 25 man roster for that first playoff series and in fact I expect only 4 starters to be named for that 5 game series. I just was wondering if there is a designation for what is being done with SS. I am guessing he just stays a part of the non-playoff roster and also stays in the dugout during games. I remember seeing all kinds of players in the dugout for the playoffs in years past but honestly did not pay much attention.
Final point - I realize we were hit hard with injuries early in the season but it is a reality that teams fight this all season long. Ruiz is out for the Phils, Bonifacio just went on the dl for the Marlins (hate to be happy about another mans injuries but he drove me crazy when we played him). The Yankees are having issues with Nova and it just goes on and on. Hate to say we are lucky with injuries but the reality is, ours happened early and if we can stay lucky its just another reason to think this is a season of destiny.
Go Nats!!! Go Playoffs!
I've been worried about how John Lannan would be able to pitch post-season if we needed him, so this answers that. But mostly, I am grinning ear to ear at this! We needed this schooling a whole year earlier than I ever suspected we would need it. To quote MichelleS, "woohoo!"
I do remember when the Giants left off some fan favorites, and the Cards have done it, too. It's going to be a nice problem to have, and I look forward to it!
I'm acquiring new "old friends" by the day, it seems, all eager to talk about the Nats and then enquire about playoff ticket status. Bet I'm not the only one. Most recent enquirer -- our housesitter from 2003.
Baseball tonight! Hurrah!
sjm, I have also been wondering about Stras. Can he be in the dugout during the playoffs if he wants to? I sure hope so. He might prefer to not be there, if he isn't playing. But it sure seems he should be allowed to be there -- Wilson, too -- if he wants.
Mark, what are the rules on that?
Wonk - when did you read about the Braves shutting down Medlen? I just assumed since he has only 80+ innings that he could go into the playoffs for them. They used him very wisely in the beginning of the year. Just like the Rays with Price, they started him off in low pressure situations out of the bullpen and did not start him until later in the year. If they are going with 160 innings as a bench mark, he has nothing to worry about.
Interesting to here Harold Reynolds take a sort of cheap shot at us in his interview with Chris Sales. You had to read between the lines but he was definitely comparing the way the Sox had given Sales several games off during the season to what we did this year with Strasburg. Sales did not bite on the question and felt he would be pitching in the post-season if they made it. I wish people would just let this thing die.
Yeah, much as I want the Giants to win, and even with our record against them, I would not look forward to facing them in the NLCS.
I suspect that the loss of Melky is going to hit them down the stretch. It's not a foregone conclusion they're going to make the post-season.
here - hear what the hell
sjm308 said...
Wonk - when did you read about the Braves shutting down Medlen?
They talked about it constantly during the broadcast, and even asked Davey about it in the post-game. His limit is around 130 innings.
The general consensus with all this is: how come nobody's bashing the Braves about this? They are going to shut down their pitcher with whom they are 16-0 in his last 16 starts, and they are in the middle of a dog-fight playoff race, and they are going to shut him down?
And no comments in the media?
Wonk: not a Giants fan but you have to think with their pitching and now a 3 game lead that they are in decent shape for at least the wildcard. Pence is not hitting for them but they almost all have World Series experience and that has to be huge!
The other team I have been watching for the last few weeks and has always bothered me are the Cards. They just seem to hover and have now moved past the Pirates and I expect what they did last year gives them a bunch of confidence. We all think Davey is a lock for manager of the year but the new guy with St. Louis will get votes if he gets them back into the playoffs.
Go Nats!!
Wonk - thanks, thats what I miss when I go to so many games. I had read nothing about it because no one is writing about Medlen, just SS.
It's game day! I live in Philly(originally from Montreal), so I don't get to say that enough ... so far, I have tickets for tonight and tomorrow ... GO NATS!
PS ... this blog is great, been reading it almost daily since I found it during spring training.
There was a lot of criticism earlier this year (over the summer) for the way the Sox were handling Sales. They let him throw a lot of pitches and go deep into games, and he was looking shaky there for a while. They pulled back on him out of necessity I think, not out of some kind of superplan.
Are you the same Expos4Ever who posts on the MLB.com site? WELCOME!!! Keep representin'...
sjm308 said...
Wonk: not a Giants fan but you have to think with their pitching and now a 3 game lead that they are in decent shape for at least the wildcard.
Good pitching, for sure, but, yesterday's lineup had nobody batting over .300. I think it's a tossup between them and the Dodgers, frankly -- except that they have a three game head start. OTOH, they do still have six games left with LA (including the last three of the season!)
How cool will it be if the Dodgers-Giants have to use their best pitcher on the last day of the season, because it decides the division, then the loser uses their #2 for the one-game playoff, and then has to start #3 against the Nats in the first round of the playoffs?
OK -- a doubtful scenario, but it's possible -- and a guy can dream, right? ;-)
How cool will it be if the Dodgers-Giants have to use their best pitcher on the last day of the season, because it decides the division....
Yeah, but for the Giants, hard to decide who is their best pitcher. I wouldn't use Lincecum or Vogelsong because they are good and bad, but would you go with Bumgarner or Cain?
"I'm sure it was because they were mentally and physically exhausted."
No doubt a contributing factor. The scheduler did not do them any favors. But losing 5 of 6 does nothing to perk anybody up, either. If they had won 5 of 6, instead of losing 5 of 6, they would probably not feel as tired.
After the last out against the Giants last night, they looked beaten. The Giants are in a fight, themselves, and are not going to let up. They looked energized after sweeping the Dodgers and taking last night's game from the Braves.
This has the appearance of another late season collapse by the Braves. The Nats also had a very tough schedule earlier this month, but put on their best showing of the year, so far. The Braves, on the other hand, have played the Dodgers, Nats and, so far, the Giants 2-5.
Wonk - I hate to say that I have been thinking about this, BUT, it really is important for us to finish with the best record for several reasons. Even if there are a definitive 2 wild card teams with no additional play-in games, those two teams will have to go with their best pitcher in that one game and it essentially means the #1 team could get through a 5 game series without ever seeing that pitcher again. Just win one of two on the road and then the first two at home and the series is over. If we are 2nd to the Reds then both 2 & 3 get to set their pitching rotation up days in advance and its not as big an advantage.
Nope, never posted on mlb.com
I used to wear my Expos Tim Raines jersey to any Nats games I went to (including the one where Strasburg got hurt in Philly) ... that was also the night I first said "the bell of silence" ... my friends that are Phillies fans hate that hahaha ... they've already started "no bell of silence!" posts
A have a couple Nats tshirts now (my Expos shirts have seen better days), but it's tough to get Nats gear here (I refuse to pay $27+shipping for any tshirt) ... I went to Baltimore for a game this summer hoping I might see some stuff at the mall, but no luck. Last week I found a great deal online at Kohl's ... have 3 more Nats tshirts on the way! For anyone who doesn't live local, check it out.
Looks like both Christian Garcia AND Ryan Perry both laid an egg last night.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Zach Walters added replacing Iszturis ... but given Davey's penchant for preferring the bat over the glove it looks like Carlos Rivero at this point. He can play shortstop in a pinch.
One of Brian Oliver's favorite options, ended up with the A's to help them with their playoff push. A left-handed hitting infielder and likely reasonably well known to Mike Rizzo.
Welcome, Expos4Ever. We have a number of, er, Expotriates who post here.
Just looked at the Kohls site and would say it's a great link even for locals, as it has a better selection than I've found in their brick-and-mortar stores. Nice discounts on some items, too (including, ahem, cold weather gear).
Hmmmm, I think everyone needs to keep in mind who the manager of this Nats team is this year. Davey Johnson is going to continue to do player development because that (in his mind) makes him best qualified to manage this team. Clearly, he has proven far superior in this one attribute than were former managers Jim Riggleman, Manny Acta, and Frank Robinson.
From his perspective this season is still also a learning experience. Having the best record in baseball is a huge bonus (and the Reds have crept again!) but doubtless the real value he will see in this season will be the right kind of seasoning the young prospects + have gained.
I've been worried about how John Lannan would be able to pitch post-season if we needed him,
Lannan ONLY STARTS. He gets shelled when he comes out in relief. And more than anything the Nats will NEED relievers not starters. No, John Lannan probably won't be used even if makes the playoff roster. And looking at his minor league stats (which aren't even the best on the team!) he is a HUGE risk ... in the two starts he's had in the majors we've been very lucky. His adjusted ERA or TRA is still huge at 4.26!!! Yes, his [p]RAA is 0.2 which is far better than Chien-Ming Wong and far better than his previous three seasons but that's with only 2 starts.
sjm308 said...
Wonk - I hate to say that I have been thinking about this, BUT, it really is important for us to finish with the best record for several reasons.
Agreed, for all the reasons you stated.
Which is why I follow every Braves score (to win the division) and every Reds score (to take the #1 seed).
Boz or someone at the WaPo pointed out that "because his name isn't Strasburg" no one's said Boo about Medlen's innings limit.
OK, Expos4Ever, I give up -- what's the Bell of Silence?
I am familiar with the Cone of Silence, but not with the Bell of Silence. :-)
This dude is nothing but a blogger. Which means not only does he know nothing, he knows less than nothing.
Well Dave does get to (along with Patrick Reddington) go on Chase Huges as one of the panel of experts. Of course its not much of a panel IMO. Would much prefer to see Brian Oliver, Byron Kerr, and perhaps Luke Erickson. All are more than reasonably objective and have greater depth of knowledge than do the pundits ponied up by WaPo and CSN.
Probably the best would be Amanda and Mark on Beltway Baseball with Chase again. Chase appears to have less expertise in this area.
natsfan1a said...
I am familiar with the Cone of Silence, but not with the Bell of Silence. :-)
August 24, 2012 11:50 AM
For those of us who know what you are talking about, that was some real funny and creative stuff!
"...the Cards are surging." -- Laddie Blah Blah
Yes, and as 308 points out, they have a history of great Septembers. This year, they will only have a great September if they do it against us, because we have 7 games against them (I'm saying Septembeer starts on August 30 for purposes of discussion.)
Whatever it means for them, those seven games, for us, could well spell the difference between a glorious end to the season and a real dogfight.
;-)
For those of us who know what you are talking about, that was some real funny and creative stuff!
The Liberty Bell at Citizens Bank Park rings after every Phillies home run or after a win. So, the bell of silence means the Nats win!
Another_Sam said...
I hope the long-suffering John Lannan is in plan somehow. BTW, last year I was one of the prime Lannan bashers.
August 24, 2012 8:10 AM
At least you admit it. I was a basher of his until last year when he came into ST in the best shape of his life and I still contend that he put up solid #4 numbers for the team in 2011. His start on July 21st I have said may be regarded in Nats history as possibly the most important win in Nats history when you consider the ramifications and importance of that one game.
Actually I don't mind good analytical criticism but some go overboard and make it very personal like some did on Desi last year and into the off-season.
When you think of how many players families and friends frequent this site, nobody wants to read someone they care about being picked on and bashed.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/post/braves-announcers-suggest-nats-wont-win-world-series-until-teddy-wins-a-race/2012/08/24/5f1d9770-edf0-11e1-b0eb-dac6b50187ad_blog.html?wprss=rss_dc-sports-bog
What game would be the perfect time for Teddy to win with some help from his friends?
http://www.natsenquirer.com/2012/08/here-are-stras-and-zimm-signing-three-aces-prints.html
Also, in support of our friend Andrew and his great work bringing iconic Nats items "to life" (since there just isn't much out there), this is very cool.
I pre-ordered 2 of these already and suggest you get one and ask for the NatsInsider discount as I know he will take care of everyone here.
Trying to remember who it was on MLB Network, but he said about 2weeks ago he thought Nats would win East, Braves would be a wild card and the second wild card would come from the West.
This is going too be one exciting finish. I am not ready too count Pirates out... although it looks like Braves, Cards, Dodgers fill two of the spots. Who knows, maybe Cards over take Reds in Central?
In AL, wow.. Tampa could catch Yankees and for that fact so could the O's. Tigers, and A's seem like they will battle with O's for last spot.
How ironic that on the front of SI is Trout and it looks like Angels are fading out of the picture.
SFG vs ATL
Might edit some more later and add.
GO Nats!!!
Interesting comment in Boz' article (the one about off-day). As I had posted a few days ago, Clip throws his change a lot not only because it's his best pitch but because it's "easy on his arm." He got burnt, obviously, so his mixing in the FB more, but there is a price to pay. Really hoping Storen can share closing duties with him as we go into the stretch.
Thanks for the photos, FS. Why so many empty seats? Cold, wet? Seems to me Giants fans are pretty solid.
What game would be the perfect time for Teddy to win with some help from his friends?
They should just put this up on the big screen and let it shake out as it may.
ATTENTION FANS
LAST TRAIN LEAVES NAVY YARD METRO STATION AT 11:20 PM
TEDDY WINS FIRST PRESIDENTS RACE AT 11:25 PM
Not sure if it was noted here but MLBtraderumors is reporting that Giolito will undergo TJ surgery on August 31st.
What game would be the perfect time for Teddy to win with some help from his friends?
I've always thought: the day that the Nats clinch first.
But . . .
Boz made a good point the other day in his chat. He answered the above question with a single word paragraph:
Never.
He, and other marketers, have noted: Teddy's perfect record of losing is the only reason people talk about it! Once Teddy wins, it reverts to something completely irrelevant, little interest, etc. Even we're talking about it here -- as an example.
Yes on Giolito. Also the Royals first-round pick had bone chips removed (think Storen).
royals-first-rounder-kyle-zimmer-has-minor-elbow-surgery
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/24/royals-first-rounder-kyle-zimmer-has-minor-elbow-surgery/
Still curious about this:
UnkyD said...
So. Would somebody walk me through the scenario of Giolito's recovery (assuming all goes well). I assume he won't be ready to throw competitively, next year, so how many innings in '14? He's so young... What season looks likely as his first "no limit" situation? I'm thinking not before '16, but what do I know? Thanks....
August 23, 2012 4:12 PM
Faraz.. Great pics. I Love the SF park.
Wonk.. sadly, I agree it's probably going to be never for Teddy.. Sigh. SportsBog has the Braves announcers trying to start a Curse of Teddy.
no problem, NatsLady and thanks 1a.
I think stadium was sold out, just did not show up I guess. Weather was not all that bad.
anyways, excited to see all this discussion about postseason and rosters. pretty awesome.
Unkyd, I would try but there are just so many unknowns with a kid as young as Giolito, not only the TJ. Because he's so young, is the recovery period the same as for someone who is 21 or 22? I'm not willing to speculate.
Ah, that rings a bell now that you mention it. Good one!
Expos4Ever said...
The Liberty Bell at Citizens Bank Park rings after every Phillies home run or after a win. So, the bell of silence means the Nats win!
August 24, 2012 12:12 PM
SI also had a big feature on the Marlins at the start of the season, if memory serves. hmmm, maybe there is something to that curse. :-)
How ironic that on the front of SI is Trout and it looks like Angels are fading out of the picture.
Wonk -- I've been thinking about that "Teddy should never win" for several days now, and think it's too clever by half. The thing has been lame for a long time, but with Werth's insightful leadership, has become increasingly resented, especially by the Nats' most ardent fans.
It's never a good idea to be oblivious or indifferent to the mounting annoyance of your best customers. I didn't get the sense that Boz was himself really advocating "never" so much as pointing out what a marketer was saying or would advise. More to the point, that kind of obliviousness or indifference is exactly the kind of marketer's arrogance that screams "I'm smarter than all of you yokels and can manipulate you to react however I want to."
I also think it's both stupid and shallow to think that "no win Teddy" is the "only" reason people would ever talk about it. It's also extremely unimaginative, one-trick-pony approach to the thing. You could get a huge PR coup by having him win after, e.g., the Nats clinch the division (from my mouth to God's ear) -- and then have him win only very infrequently thereafter. You could start all kinds of different buzz around "what's the event or occasion that's big or distinctive enough to have Teddy win?" There's all kinds of twists and turns that creative people could come up with to make a new buzz around Teddy. Haven't these people ever grasped the concept of "gotten old"?
More great pics, Faraz. Thanks for sharing them. Brings to mind a visit there with an old friend, my sis, and my older brother, before his final illness took hold. Oddly enough, the Giants were playing the Braves, and the home team won. Happy memories.
Thanks, natslady... His youth makes it complicated. Maybe short season at Auburn, in '14, it maybe that it times out just as JZimn and Gio are turning 30...
Why can't Teddy win and then introduce a new President next year for some new fun for the kids? I suggest John Quincy Adams or Taft or Ronald Reagan. I can see the loveable Ronny posing for photos.
NatsLady said...
Unkyd, I would try but there are just so many unknowns with a kid as young as Giolito, not only the TJ. Because he's so young, is the recovery period the same as for someone who is 21 or 22? I'm not willing to speculate.
August 24, 2012 1:32 PM
There are 16 year olds who have had TJ. With Yocum doing the surgery they will have a protocol. No rush with the kid and they can ramp him up slowly.
No team has more experience with TJ than the Nats which is one reason I think he signed with the Nats. This seeemed inevitable from the start to me and better it happened now. He can ramp up for some instructional ball a year from now to get some reps in and then get a Minor League assignment in 2014.
The race is definitely getting boos (except on Sundays, when you have a lot of kids at the park).
Here was a JFK outside the park one day, and attracted a lot of attention. I'm pretty sure he was on his own, and maybe got chased away. But refreshing the race would be good.
Suppose Teddy won, say, precisely once a year. Would we be discussing it now? Would there be a Let Teddy Win Two movement/web site? Would we be able to make a few bucks off the naive tourists who will bet on him if you give them odds? Probably not. Maybe. But probably not.
And they can bring in another potus when someone carves a fifth one into Rushmore. Which is, again, approximately never.
We are stuck with this forever.
Holy ch-t, just when you thought none of the contenders would make a big move prior to August 31st, the Red Sox just claimed Adrian Gonzalez.
It doesn't mean they will get him as a trade with the Red Sox would have to be worked out but this is nuts. StanK has a totally different philosophy at the helm of LA-D in a an almost win now at all expense scenario.
Having Teddy never win is correct from a literary as well as a marketing standpoint, in my view. I think, on the day we clinch, Washington should win. And as for retiring Teddy for another president...we should probably stick with the "Mt. Rushmore Four" for fear of jangling anybody's political nerves.
Look at it this way -- at least we don't have sausages in our race.
NatsLady said...
Here was a JFK outside the park one day, and attracted a lot of attention. I'm pretty sure he was on his own, and maybe got chased away. But refreshing the race would be good.
August 24, 2012 1:58 PM
Not to get political so I will mention 1 from each aisle. Maybe a switch to modern Presidents and George Bush II or Jimmy Carter could be the 2 stooges.
Not sure I owe you a whole Coke, Z-Mantis, but you did beat me with the Rushmore reference.
I was just checking out an article about how several nats were doing camps, visiting hospitals, during the brutal 35 games in 34 days schedule. It reminded me of how much I admire and respect the guys on our team, top to bottom. I am very proud of this team - the way they conduct themselves on and off the field. Sometimes I do the usual fan thing and yell at them from my living room for a bad at bat or misplay. But, there is never a time where I think they are dogging it or their heads are not in the game. No matter what happens or doesn't happens this year, it won't be for lack of hard work, motivation and focus. Rizzo has an eye for talent, but he really, really has an eye for good all-around guys.
NatsFan1a said ...
Ah, that rings a bell now that you mention it. Good one!
-----
Expos4Ever said...
The Liberty Bell at Citizens Bank Park rings after every Phillies home run or after a win. So, the bell of silence means the Nats win!
I thought it was the Well of Silence.
Wouldn't it be cool if we could use spells in here?
OK, maybe that's a "never," too.
So, I'm looking at the WC standings, and right now there is a three-way tie for the second wild card. How is that untangled if it's that way on October 3rd?
baseballswami said...
I was just checking out an article about how several nats were doing camps, visiting hospitals, during the brutal 35 games in 34 days schedule. It reminded me of how much I admire and respect the guys on our team, top to bottom. I am very proud of this team - the way they conduct themselves on and off the field. August 24, 2012 2:09 PM
I had this on my mind the other day when I was talking with a player about the Phillies trip and he said yesterday's trip comes after a golf tourney in Rockville Maryland. He didn't seem pleased to be getting up before the sun rose to make that appearance. It sounded like a team event that they do every year.
Point is, when Bryce does a camp and shows up at 10am near his apartment and can then go back to sleep in his own bed isn't the same as a mandated Golf Tourney or Dream Foundation late night dinner or the worse possible timed Picnic In The Park that needed to be canceled.
Rizzo has to put his foot down that these events are counter-productive to the main event - WINNING.
I said before that the Yankees do no large scale team events during the season. Smaller PR types of deals and the types of appearances players want to do on their own is fine.
That's the DODGERS who claimed Adrian Gonzales.
Story here
Wonk -- I've been thinking about that "Teddy should never win" for several days now, and think it's too clever by half. The thing has been lame for a long time, but with Werth's insightful leadership, has become increasingly resented, especially by the Nats' most ardent fans.
A few counterpoints (I'm not so much disagreeing with you, as putting my "marketer's hat" on here):
1. Too clever by half, and lame, often works with the masses and/or marketing
2. The fact that we're still talking about what Werth did -- or, rather, the reason why Werth did what he did -- is because Teddy never wins.
3. If the Nats won a WS, would Werth care that Teddy loses anymore?
It's never a good idea to be oblivious or indifferent to the mounting annoyance of your best customers.
To tell you the truth, I do half-watch it to see "how will he lose it this time?" Lots of TV shows have endings you can predict in the first minute -- but you watch to see _how_ it will happen. ("Columbo" -- you knew he would solve it, and you even knew the culprit from the opening scene). You know roadrunner will escape Wyle E. Coyote. Etc.
I didn't get the sense that Boz was himself really advocating "never" so much as pointing out what a marketer was saying or would advise.
Right! I agree. And, once Boz said that, a light went off in my head, and I saw the bigger picture here.
I also think it's both stupid and shallow to think that "no win Teddy" is the "only" reason people would ever talk about it.
Why are we talking about it now? Why were the _Braves_ announcers even talking about it. Do Nats announcers ever talk about opponents stupid-between innings stuff? Why is there (or was there) a blog named after it?
You could get a huge PR coup by having him win after, e.g., the Nats clinch the division (from my mouth to God's ear)
That PR coup would be intense, and the talk of the town. For a few days. That's it. Then "the magic" (or losing streak, or whatever) is gone _forever_.
Food for thought . . . .
I'm not saying I necessarily like it . . . it's just that now I see it from the marketing point of view for the first time.
from Jack Moore, CBS Sports
The Los Angeles Dodgers have been awarded the waiver claim on Boston Red Sox first baseman Adrian Gonzalez, Bill Shaikin of The Los Angeles Times reported Friday.
The Dodgers' claim of Gonzalez would be the first step in a potential trade sending the star first baseman to Los Angeles. The Times mentioned a potential deal that would also involve Josh Beckett and Carl Crawford heading to Los Angeles for multiple top prospects.
Even with the first step completed, the deal is far from complete. The Dodgers would be taking on $253 million in salary, an absurd sum even considering the clear willingness of new ownership to spend, all while giving up loads of future value. The Red Sox have the rights to pull Gonzalez back off waivers in the event a trade isn't completed in the next 48 to 72 hours.
But hey, it would be fun, right?
The Z-Mantis! said...
That's the DODGERS who claimed Adrian Gonzales.
Story here
August 24, 2012 2:19 PM
Thanks for the auto-correct. I did stay StanK though! ;)
I think I owe Wonk a coke just for explaining it better.
You did, Ghost, and "LA-D" too.
NatsLady, as I recall from the tiebreakers discussion last week, if there's a three-way tie for the division, or for the last wildcard (not including the first WC), they basically flip a coin, and the two losers play each other, and winner of that game plays the third team.
Can you even imagine? I thought last year's game 162 was the most exciting end to a season EVER. The scenario you are describing would be just crazy.
3-way tiebreakers
Zmantis, my fingers work ahead of my brain whether I type quick or slow.
It was clear you were excited, Ghost.
Wonk -- while I understand the marketing perspective, I also think there's a lot wrong with it. The "oh, it works because we're talking about it now" argument is kind of silly because even if they had contemplated a time to end the losing streak, there wouldn't have been any basis related to the team (and the Presidents do wear Nats unis, so it has to be related to the team) to end it before this season. We're talking about it now largely because most fans think it SHOULD end sometime next month.
That's the reason there's still considerable interest in it -- that people think it's an appropriate occasion for a win. If they win the WS and Teddy still doesn't win, I guarantee you that many people will get both disgusted and more vocally annoyed with it. What reason would any adult have to watch if failing to give him a win after a Nats WS win confirms that he will never win?
I used also to look for the "how will he lose this time?" answer, but after 500+ losses, they've ALL gotten lame.
Finally, there's not one single marketing answer or approach. Continuing what you've always done is singularly unimaginative, form-following marketing, and at a certain point it becomes flat out lazy, especially when most people aren't buying it.
I note that you didn't comment on my alternative, which is having him win very rarely and keeping everyone guessing about what the basis or occasion for the next win is going to be.
I hope it doesn't sound like I'm getting worked up about this, because it's a mildly interesting topic at best, compared to the Nats. But it would be a bad reflection on the franchise management if they were to persist with something that would have become persistently annoying (which it would after a WS win), basically out of lack of imagination.
Ghost Of Steve M. said...
natsfan1a said...
I am familiar with the Cone of Silence, but not with the Bell of Silence. :-)
August 24, 2012 11:50 AM
For those of us who know what you are talking about, that was some real funny and creative stuff!
---------------
Eh?...... Can't hear you, Cheif....
Ghost, I 100% agree with you on these non-baseball events, especially in a season like this.
Boz seemed to think in his article the players were having a good time golfing at "the Lerners' home course..." (and maybe some of them did).
But I always hated that stuff in the corporate world, schmoozing with the higher ups, parties, outings, pretending you are having a great time telling anecdotes about your contact lenses... I just wanted to do my job and then go home to things that I enjoyed.
Thanks, Z! Crazy!
How did Gonzalez do against us? We still have more Dodgers games. (Notice how Nats-centered I am?)
The other thing about the races is, they don't do them for people like us in the first place. They do them for the kids, and the casual fans, who are probably ... what, 75% of the gate?
Put another way, who boycotts the games because Teddy loses? Would you really stop following the team because Teddy never wins? It costs them nobody, and it contributes, albeit indirectly, to other people's enjoyment. Like the Wave. Or Sweet Caroline. Both of which I hate, but I'm not going to fewer games, or not buying Nats gear, because of that.
Did somebody order sausage?
Look at it this way -- at least we don't have sausages in our race.
You may need an upgraded shoe-phone. :-)
UnkyD said...
Ghost Of Steve M. said...
natsfan1a said...
I am familiar with the Cone of Silence, but not with the Bell of Silence. :-)
August 24, 2012 11:50 AM
For those of us who know what you are talking about, that was some real funny and creative stuff!
---------------
Eh?...... Can't hear you, Cheif....
August 24, 2012 2:47 PM
1a, I got back from Chicago and was hanging my shirts in the KLAH-zit. CSBCFW found it hilarious.
NatsLady, where can I find the Boz article or was it a tweeter?
Glad we agree on the extraneous full tilt extracurriculars.
Great blog post Mark Z. !
Not that I'm a big fan of the race (zzzzzz) but we were sitting next to some Mets fans at a recent game. They seemed to be quite knowledgeable about baseball but new to the park. They were all excited about the race; they stood up and cheered (after asking which one it was that lost all the time :-)).
The Z-Mantis! said...
The other thing about the races is, they don't do them for people like us in the first place. They do them for the kids, and the casual fans, who are probably ... what, 75% of the gate?
Put another way, who boycotts the games because Teddy loses? Would you really stop following the team because Teddy never wins? It costs them nobody, and it contributes, albeit indirectly, to other people's enjoyment. Like the Wave. Or Sweet Caroline. Both of which I hate, but I'm not going to fewer games, or not buying Nats gear, because of that.
August 24, 2012 3:05 PM
We likewise found it hilarious on a Chicago trip when the recorded voice at the parking garage informed us that there was no KASH-ier. :-)
The Z-Mantis! said...
1a, I got back from Chicago and was hanging my shirts in the KLAH-zit. CSBCFW found it hilarious.
August 24, 2012 3:13 PM
Ghost,
the-importance-of-days-off
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/nationals-journal/post/washington-nationals-the-importance-of-days-off/2012/08/23/42d873fa-ed41-11e1-b09d-07d971dee30a_blog.html
Back from my bike ride (25 miles thank you very much!!). I really do recommend retirement. Will be taking my Peric ordered nap here soon but was surprised just a little with the Gonzalez move. This isn't an automatic done deal as I understand it. Sox can 1. pull him off waivers and its just business as usual. 2. Try and work a trade with the Dodgers. or 3. Let him go with LA picking up the huge contract and the remaining years (I think its 6). To me, that is a huge gamble by the Dodgers. I love Werth & Zimm but the reality is, in the last few years of their contracts, it is probably not going to be pretty. I do give the Dodgers credit though. since new owership took over, they have not been afraid to make moves.
With the nap, I should be fresh to root on our lads as we go for another series win!
Go Nats!!
Wrapping up lots of comments since I left.
NatsJack - thanks for the update on Medlen. This can wait but guess whose spousal equivilent is talking FLA in Feb/March??? How is Melbourne?
Expo4ever - one of the neat things I have done since it was announced we were getting a team was getting to know and love Montreal. Went to a game with about 3,000 other close friends - seriously doubt if there were that many, I might be exagerating. Saw the Cards & you could hear the catcher and position players talking during the game. It was nuts, but also fell in love with the city. Just a wonderful place and I have been back twice since that first trip for baseball.
Last but not least - while I love Zmantis and Chillie Mo, pretty f'ing bueno, and all the other incarnations, I do miss section 3 my sofa. I hope it is getting reupholstered and will be back soon.
While I love Z-Mantis and Chili Mo, pretty [f'ing] bueno, and all the other incarnations, I do miss section 3 my sofa. I hope it is getting reupholstered and will be back soon.
Hey, I'm all about the marketing!
D'oh! Too fast for me. :-)
Changed my mind, too, while I was at it.
Sofa -- this is probably futile as this thread is done but I'm glad you took such an interest in my interchange with Wonk to rebut straw man arguments I never made --
who boycotts the games because Teddy loses? Would you really stop following the team because Teddy never wins?
when all I said was that continuing the Teddy loses shtick after the Nats won a WS would be annoying and stupid, a topic I described as "mildly interesting at best".
But I guess if you're into marketing, may as well go all the way... ;-)
Post a Comment