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Associated Press photo Gio Gonzalez struck out 10 but took the loss in the nightcap. |
"It's a wash," Adam LaRoche said. "It's where you move in the standings. You win one, you lose one. It could've been better, but we're all still alive after that, so we'll get them tomorrow."
That probably best summed a long afternoon and evening on South Capitol Street that saw the Nationals split a doubleheader with the Marlins, winning the opener 7-4 behind John Lannan's strong start but then losing the nightcap 5-2 when Gio Gonzalez was out-dueled by Josh Johnson.
And the 50-50 result might have been less-significant than the announcement earlier in the day the Nationals had acquired Kurt Suzuki from the Athletics, who is expected to be in the lineup Saturday night and assume No. 1 catching duties for the remainder of the season.
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98 comments:
The guy who had the longest day was you, Mark. Thanks for taking one for the team (i.e., us) today. Hope you get a good night's sleep to get ready for the rest of the weekend.
Sure seems like the next player traded may be Flores? Rizzo did not mention him as a part of his 2013 catching roster. Perhaps Rizzo was trying to convince Beane to take Flores instead of top prospect Freitas and thus the past-the-deadline execution of the trade?
Koyie Hill must have immediately asked for his release and now the Chiefs are down to Jeff Howell until Maldonado clears waivers. Have to wonder if perhaps Flores might have similar inclinations?
Mark probably won't be going to Houston with the team so I guess he gets to rest while they are out of town against the 'Stros?
Peric,
Maldonado was DFA, not placed on waviers (slight difference). Leon will most likely take his spot in Syracuse, or Solano if he's ready to rehab. Another possibility is promoting someone from AA like Kris Watts (they currently have 3 catchers on the roster in Harrisburg).
Hope Gio is right about Suzuki. Team could use some attitude and positive vibe moving forward.
Hope Gio is right about Suzuki. Team could use some attitude and positive vibe moving forward.
Ooops yes they always DFA Maldonando and he always clears and ends up in Syracuse.
By all accounts he is. In fact for many A's fans Suzuki was there FOF face of the franchise.
Like Flores he has been having a terrible year offensively but for a different reason. He needs to be in the flow getting 450-500 bats a season to be effective at the plate. Sharing time with Derrick Norris left him as the odd man out ... in Flores case due to severe injury followed by surgery and then the constant pounding of a starting major league backstop ... its just too much for him he doesn't seem to be physically capable of it.
So, Suzuki seems to be just the reverse. And he'll probably start over Ramos until Ramos can prove he can handle it after his knee issues. They've got him for another year which should be enough time to see if Ramos can come back from the knee. If it doesn't look good then it gives Rizzo enough time to finagle a trade of pitching for a top catching prospect. I guess that's what it'll boil down to if that happens.
Suzuki is known for his great synergy with young pitchers. They all rave about the guy in the A's organization and he also mentored Derrick Norris. It'll be interesting to see if he can help Solano and Leon become better. Perhaps Flores ... but his arm strength appears to be completely gone he looked worse than Nieves throwing out runners recently ... as if he could barely reach the bases in the infield. Flores looks like he is barely running on fumes.
That must have what caused Rizzo to finally pull the trigger on this trade.
Forgive my ignorance, but I thought the trade deadline was 7/31? Or is this just like buying somebody outright, no trade?
zrefime, if you look at beltway baseball episode from the other day, Mark explains the difference between the 7/31 & 8/31 deadlines.
My opinion on Flores has been a top backup to Ramos. Effective playing twice to three times a week. A lot of Flores issues started with his sore hamstring and playing a day game after an extra innings game. His slide spiraled down after that. I questioned Daveys wisdom then.
Flores demeanor lacks energy. I feel bad for him. He is a good person.
After the Dodgers series a few of you were trashing Ramos and wishing Flores was the primary catcher.
How soon some forget what they wished for.
zregime, this was a waiver wire trade. Good news is if Suzuki and Flores bounce back, one of them will be nice trade bait for Rizzo this winter.
Just weeks ago it seemed the Nats minor league system was yogurt, with all the good stuff on the bottom.
Now that the prospects are progressing, it's encouraging to see plausible major leaguers at every level.
Syracuse: Brown, Perez, Walters, Lannan
Harrisburg: Goodwin, Rosenbaum
Potomac: Meyer, Karns, Martinson
Hagerstown: Skole
Auburn: Rendon
Add Giolito, Solis, Purke, Leon, Solano and that's a productive system.
A couple things I've been wondering about the Suzuki trade that I thought I'd throw out for discussion -- You hear alot about teams blocking teams with better records from picking up a needed part by making a waiver claim on a player they aren't really interested in. Wasn't it pretty obvious that the Nats needed catching help? (It sure was to lots of us here.) So why didn't the Braves or Mets (or even the Giants or Dodgers) claim Suzuki to block us from getting him? There wasn't really a chance that the A's would do a salary dump and just give Suzuki away to the claimer, was there?
Also, does the fact that Rizzo and Beane had been talking about Suzuki for a week, but the trade wasn't consummated until the deadline suggest that Beane wanted someone from our system other than Freitas but Rizzo wouldn't budge? I think it might. Rizzo wanted Suzuki, but he was driving a hard bargain. We have two very decent, nearly major league ready minor league catchers in Leon and Solano. Freitas had a tough road to the majors and was expendable. Beane may well have wanted one of our prize pitching prospects and Rizzo wasn't willing to do that.
From Byron Kerr. Several nats players not feeling well. Had to use pedia lyte.
Can you say quarantine!
Amanda has a post that goes over the post-July 31 waiver rules in some detail (incorporating, and crediting a 2004 Jayson Stark article). Worth a look if you find this stuff confusing, as I do. As I understand it, "clearing waivers" really means that no team with a worse record than the one that wants to trade with you claimed the players. So the Nats, with one of the best records in the NL can't block a trade to an NL team with a worse record than they have.
Saw an interview with Davey about the Suzuki acquisition. It seems that Davey coached Suzuki about 4 years ago in an international competition, and is very high on him. He seemed genuinely delighted to be getting the guy, and it appeared that the acquisition of Suzuki has been a goal of the front office for some time.
Rizzo knows what he is getting when he goes after someone, and his talent evaluators are among the best. I feel awful for Flo, who, I think, has been playing hurt for weeks, if not months. We know his back is bugging him, and it shows in his hitting. But Suzuki is the guy they wanted back there, and they got their man. Rizzo usually does.
Funny how they will get a replacement for Flo, but are willing to put up with Danny's struggles, no matter what. He has been killing them in the 6 hole, where Desi used to come through so often with RISP. Danny's Ks are way back up. He cannot even make contact when that would be all that is needed to bring in a guy from 3rd.
Yeah, they have no one else. And I do not want to think about DeRosa at SS. But does Davey have to bat Danny at leadoff, and in the 6 hole? His performance should rate him no better than the 7, or even the 8 spot.
The Nats just got beat last night by the better pitcher. Gio was good, but Johnson was superb. When Zim and ALR can do nothing with the other team's starter, the Nats are usually in deep trouble scoring runs.
You hear alot about teams blocking teams with better records from picking up a needed part by making a waiver claim on a player they aren't really interested in. Wasn't it pretty obvious that the Nats needed catching help? (It sure was to lots of us here.) So why didn't the Braves or Mets (or even the Giants or Dodgers) claim Suzuki to block us from getting him? There wasn't really a chance that the A's would do a salary dump and just give Suzuki away to the claimer, was there?
Actually you don't hear about teams blocking other teams' waiver trades a lot. You hear about it every once in a while, such as the Dodgers putting in a claim on Cliff Lee - which was probably more of a fishing expedition by the Phillies than a waiver trade in the making, actually. Contrast the number of times you hear about waiver wire blocking with the number of waiver trades that go through. It's pretty small, which indicates that GMs are trying to win off the field by making trades to improve their own team, but they're not doing things to try to stop other teams from improving too. Which is smart, because doing that can come back to bite you more often than not. You're going to have to deal with those other GMs down the road, and they can have long memories.
Splitting a doubleheader is like kissing your sister. Losing the second game after winning the first is like having a sister who's really not very hot.
So as a typical nats fan, I have plenty of things to worry about almost every day. Today- Danny, no explanation needed. Worried that JZ will be "too strong" after not pitching for a week and his sinker won't sink. The bullpen showing cracks. Suzuki's arrival/Flores - again, no explanation needed. Losing to terrible teams.Ugh. Going forward - these teams might have sub .500 records, but their lineups have major league baseball players who get tired of losing and love to beat first place teams. There just cannot be a let down with these "easy" teams. No such thing. So far this week we are 2 -3 against beatable teams. Oh - and I hear the stomach bug is spreading - more good news.
Section 222 without having more information it's hard to say about one team blocking the trade. I'm thinking that because Suzuki is going to be on the Nats today that Billy put him on waivers on the fist or second. He might have cleared waivers before the Nationals made the trade. I don't know if this is true but the timeline makes me think it is possible.
Because Suzuki is under contract next year for over 6 million and Atlanta and the Dodgers don't need a catcher they probably didn't want to chance it with Beane and the A's who are a cost conscience team.
I was checking on an A's board and some of them are not happy and do see it as a salary dump. I think the manager stated it wasn't but when you have to say that to your fan base it mean some people are thinking it.
This is speculation and someone may have more inside information but its one way it could have gone down.
For what it's worth, I like the trade and I think that it needed to be done. I even think Mark had some idea about it, maybe not the specific trade but that Rizzo was actually look for a catcher.
Contrast the number of times you hear about waiver wire blocking with the number of waiver trades that go through. It's pretty small, which indicates that GMs are trying to win off the field by making trades to improve their own team, but they're not doing things to try to stop other teams from improving too.
And you know this how? Jason Stark doesn't seem to agree:
In the past, many teams claimed players just to keep them from being traded to contenders with a better record.
Of course we don't hear about the actual blocked trades because there's no reporting of who puts in claims on waivers. And we don't know which players put on the waiver wire (and virtually all are) are actually the subject of trade discussions. Indeed, I'm not even sure that Rizzo would know who claimed Suzuki if someone with a worse record had claimed him, unless Beane tells him. Are all claims public, or made available to all GMs? Since you know everything, maybe you know that and can enlighten us.
Sure, GMs hold grudges. But they all know how the game is played too. I sure hope that Rizzo is blocking the Reds from acquiring a player he thinks they want. This isn't tiddlywinks we're playing here.
Section 222,
The timing is indeed curious, but I think once the deadline passed all the leverage went to Rizzo and he was able to concede less in the deal. I also believe the A's were eager to move his Suzuki's cumbersome salary - they're even eating some of it - and were probably very disappointed when no other team made a bid ahead of the Nats. And the Braves didn't "block" the move tells us all we need to know what little value Suzuki had on the open market. The A's still could have pulled him back but from the Nats but chose to 'settle' for a warm body and budget relief. Chalk this one up as a score for Rizzo. I think Suzuki will surprise a lot of people and be a significant contributor in the drive forward. His 2014 option (8.5 mil) is for another day.
Fox, you could be right about Braves and Dodgers not wanting to risk being stuck with Suzuki. It just seems like he's a good enough player that the A's would insist on getting something for him rather than just giving him away.
He definitely had to clear waivers before the trade, otherwise it couldn't be done. In other words, no team with a worse record than the Nats claimed him, or Beane couldn't trade him to the Nats. The Nats obviously put in a claim. They would want to make sure that Beane didn't trade him to someone else.
Maldonado DFA'd, and now Koyie Hill released.
And you know this how? Jason Stark doesn't seem to agree:
In the past, many teams claimed players just to keep them from being traded to contenders with a better record.
Of course we don't hear about the actual blocked trades because there's no reporting of who puts in claims on waivers.
Well, if Jayson Stark knows about all these blocked trades, why isn't he citing names and numbers? And "the past" is a long time. How far back is he going there? Dead ball era, Babe Ruth era, 1950s, big salary free agent era, when? The game has changed a lot over the years, both on the field and in the front office. How about focusing on now? Do you really hear about any blocked waiver-wire trades? Can you name even one from the past five years?
Agree with the swami. I was there yesterday. A lot of bball for a wash. Nats playing average right now. While braves and reds just rolling along. I'm worried. 2 games isn't much.
From tomorrow's NYTimes (on-line today):
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/05/sunday-review/why-washington-is-doing-so-well.html?_r=1&hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1344091715-xb37cNogGZ/q2beD7AsJWA
Actually, more about the city/region than the Nats, but uses the team as a metaphor.
On the waiver-trade question, the only team that really had a motivation to 'block' the Nats from acquiring Mr. Suzuki was the Braves. The Mets GM knows they're out of it and I just don't imagine the teams in the other divisions are going to worry about the third- and fourth-level machinations involved (Cliff Lee is one thing, Kurt Suzuki quite another). And for the Braves -- who don't have the deep pockets (or at least aren't as willing to dig into them) given their dated TV package -- Mr. Suzuki's contract may well have been a deal breaker.
In other words, I'm not concerned that the Nats are getting 'picked over' goods; I'm must happy they're getting a catcher who may have a better chance of throwing out base stealers and may generate a few more runs than our current back-stopping corps.
Do you really hear about any blocked waiver-wire trades? Can you name even one from the past five years?
No, though I've seen mention recently of teams claiming Matt Garza to prevent others from getting him. And if I wanted to spend the day researching I'm sure I could find other mentions of blocked trades in news articles. I'm certain some have been reported because, like Jayson Stark, I think it's common knowledge that blocking occurs. But that doesn't mean that all or even a majority of blocked trades become publicly known.
However, a quick search revealed this quote from the White Sox GM Kenny Williams just a few days ago:
"The waiver process, Williams said, 'is an interesting game that's played, in making a decision to claim or not to claim, block or not to block. It can get very tricky.'"
At any rate, I wasn't saying that we know the details of the the blocked trades. Just that it's widely reported that blocks occur, that GMs for teams in the hunt make waiver claims to prevent their competitors from getting an advantage. You disagree with that basic premise. I've provided two sources (Stark and Williams) to support my position, you've provided none.
Frankly, I have better things to do than argue with you about this. I put the topic out for discussion to learn something from others who have actual knowledge or interesting speculation to add, not to try to prove how much I know or how good my googling skills are.
Section 222,
Let me try again.
Beane has stated many times that he will discuss any of his player none of them are off limits. I know he mentioned that the A's successful run lately was when Norris was playing for them. I do know that they did send him back down which is hard to understand but they brought him right up again.
If I had to guess, he tried to trade Suzuki to many teams maybe even to see if he could improve the current one but because of his salary and him not having a good year offensively and other teams knowing he had a replacement for him in Norris he did not get many good offers. Rizzo was probably talking to him too but I bet the money issue could not be worked out maybe it was the player but getting the A's to pickup some of the salary is a little strange for them.
So Beane still has Suzuki who he tried to trade got no good offers and place him on waivers day one just like the Phillie's did with Lee. He had talked to Rizzo before the trade fell thought because of money other teams probably even knew this. The other GM's could be thinking if Rizzo didn't get him before the deadline why would he get him now? Even on waivers Beane is allowed to work a trade or pull him back.
I don't think it was planned to workout after the trading deadline I just think Rizzo held to his guns about the money and other teams either didn't think it would happen or were concerned that if they put in a claim Beane might just dump him because he could not trade him.
There was an interesting behind the scene article on MLB that gave a very detailed look at the trade deadline by the Phillie's GM. I found it very surprising how active all the GM's are and about all the almost crazy trade they discuss. I tried to find it on their site again, I saw it on my phone but I couldn't find it.
Maybe this might make sense or maybe its just me.
Plus its not like Suzuki is cheap next year... claim him and you are on the hook for that salary.
Flores see the writing on the wall... get better or be a backup. Know he has been thru a ton and worked his butt off to return, but he has to know his numbers right now aren't acceptable. He can accept his role, get mad or get better. The Nats won't decide that, Jesus will.
As for Danny, don't get me started on him.
I like the Suzuki deal...REALLY like it! Our pups just aren't quite there yet, even though they're clearly "gamers". And Flo is just beat up... More and more I notice that, the first full year back from a looonng rehab is seldom more than an 80% proposition, especially in a long, grueling season like baseball's. We're seeing this with Det, as well... Coming back from hip surgery,(and arm?...can't remember, now), he need extra rest, last year to be effective. Much better now. Could be that Flo is a new man, next year, wherever he winds up.
Having said that, I'd forgive Jesus, if he gets a little frustrated, over this. There was ill will over the way his injury was handled, a couple of years ago, if you remember... I'm sure he gets that he needed help here and now, but we just brought in another STARTING catcher, and assuming Moose is ready to compete, come March, one of the three will be packing their bags. Feel really bad for him, but this is a terrific move, sentiment aside. Kudos to Rizzo.
Fox, that makes sense. That was my theory as well. Rizzo was interested in Suzuki before the deadline and there were serious discussions. Deal didn't get done either because of the money (you're right that the A's probably don't pick up salary very often) or because they couldn't agree on the Nats player. But discussions were serious enough that Beane put Suzuki on the wire right away, and lucky for us other teams didn't bite. I kind of doubt Beane would have just let Suzuki go for nothing if the Braves had claimed him, but maybe that risk deterred them.
In any event, I'm very comfortable with this trade and glad it worked out. Jesus has been a trooper but he's not the guy to lead us to the playoffs and beyond.
Section 222,
Here is what can go wrong if you make a claim to block a trade.
The Padres' 1998 waiver claim of Myers is considered one of the biggest blunders in the history of the waiver wire. The Padres did not want Myers, mostly because of the $12 million and 2 additional years remaining on his contract as well as the fact that they already had an established closer in Trevor Hoffman, but placed a waiver claim in order to prevent him from going to the rival Atlanta Braves. They expected the Blue Jays to rescind their waiver claim, but the Blue Jays instead allowed the waiver claim to go through, leaving them responsible for the rest of his contract.
How could they not have told Flores, right after they told Suzuki's agent the deal was done? Then tell the press before him? Apart from Kurt, this deal impacted no one more than Jesus. These are PEOPLE, not machines. I have been emotionally attached to all kinds of things the management of this team has done and not done. But I've never felt so deeply angry before. Unconscionable.
Right. According to Stark, that's how the Yankees got stuck with Canseco as well. It's a risk. But Williams says that teams do block. It's a matter of predicting what the team that has put the player on the wire will do. Fascinating stuff. The idea that blocks never occur because GMs want to be nice guys and avoid pissing off their peers is silly though.
On another topic, I just got to see the recording of the intentionally dropped bunt in yesterday's first game. I just love that play. And one thing that FP and Bob didn't comment on is how Zim, who was charging, immediately returned to 3B to be able to receive the throw. Nice play there, all around.
Playoffs? Playoffs? We are 2and 3at home against crappy teams at home and you want to talk about playoffs?
I would agree that the play off talks are premature. Not looking very good against sub-par teams right now. They have played well over their heads all season.I don't know if they can sustain it much longer. Nothing against them - I think they are awesome and have been incredible. It just seems that it's been fragile and touch and go much of the time and doesn't take much to knock things out of whack. I am reserving judgement on this trade. I think it was handled in an unprofessional way. Does the guy need a change of scenery and will be a game changer for us with base stealers? Or will this upset the balance of the dugout eco-system. Mostly worried about everyone being sick right now.
Section 222,
You are correct teams do block trades after the deadline if they didn't there would not be a flurry of trades before the deadline. Trades they feel are inconsequential or are made by non-contending teams mostly due to salary structure are more often left alone now.
From the article I mentioned regarding the trading deadline it was eye opening to me because of cell phones and texting how almost all the GM's are always throwing deals out to one another pretty much nonstop around the trading deadline. The Phillies GM slept 2 hour in the 24 hours before the deadline. He even said he gets so many text messages that he has missed trades before.
When a trade is proposed they contact all their scouts and check with them and the scouts also know who all the other scouts are and who is looking at what player and what other teams want because they might be able to make a similar deal. Did you know that there is a medical player database that is kept by MLB and when a deadline deal is made the team that picks up the new player gets a code that unlocks their medical file?
Technology is changing the game and it is very difficult now to secretly make a deal that other teams don't know about.
You are on the money Jane B.
There is no excuse for Flores learning of a trade that impacts him, from the reporters.
No excuse at all!
And Swami, I agree that we need to get past this flu so we can get going again. I remember the Braves losing a few when they went through this.
Jane B and djinFl,
You are both completely correct about not telling Flores and having him hear it from a reporter. It is not only unfair to him it make the team look bad.
It really is inexcusable and I'm sure Flores now thinks he is not in the National's long term plans even if they tell him differently.
Swami - you won't let this trade thing go so neither will I - how in gods name was this handled unprofessionally? Do you really think the players are kept informed of deals that do not involve them minute by minute when they have to get focused to play a double header? Do you want Flores worried about his future or do you want him concentrating on the task at hand?
JaneB used the word unconsionable, what would be unconsionable is to let this team suffer from having a beatup catcher try to make it through the season. Flores did a fine job. He was our 2nd catcher at the start of the season and did more then asked through many small injuries but he is not the problem or the answer. In my opinion, after things settle and he and Suzuki talk over the pitchers and hitters and start to work together, things will actually improve for Jesus. He will be more rested and perform to his capablilities. This is not tiddly winks people, we are in a pennant race and Rizzo, Davey, Flores, LannEn, Werth, LaRoche and everyone else are going to try and win every game. That won't happen but the thrill of being there is a pretty damn great experience for this old fan. Swami, you just worry away but don't forget to enjoy the ride.
Go Nats!! Playoffs here we come!!!
Frankly, I have better things to do than argue with you about this. I put the topic out for discussion to learn something from others who have actual knowledge or interesting speculation to add, not to try to prove how much I know or how good my googling skills are.
Ah, so that's it. You find my speculation "uninteresting." You must be a lawyer or in politics, Section222, because you have an irrational need to "win" every single discussion. You need to realize that most of the rest of the world does not operate like your little world does. And baseball is included in that.
You are correct teams do block trades after the deadline if they didn't there would not be a flurry of trades before the deadline.
That makes you, me, Jayson Stark, Kenny Williams and the rest of the world who agree on this point. Watch out though, pRAA may now challenge you to prove it by naming actual trades that have been blocked. :-)
If you can post a link to the article on GMs you mention, I'd love to read it.
Actually - what I said is that I am reserving judgement. I am not against it at all and I don't think the current situation was cutting it. I also don't think the fo needs to consult players or hold their hands when there are trades. I just think it was a pretty crappy thing for Flores and Leon, the ones directly affected to not at least be told personally, even right as the game ended before the reporters got a hold of them. He's a good guy and will probably continue to be a team player - yes, he does need a break. And as far as not letting it go - seems like the general topic of the morning to me. Quite willing to wait and see and hoping that this works out for everyone involved.
I think you have to be very conscious that non-contending teams are bringing up YOUNG guys from the minors and prospects that they have traded for. These guys are hungry, they are not as banged up as the ML guys, and they are talented--or they wouldn't be auditioning at this level. So while our overall talent level may be higher than, say, the Cubs, on any given day you can easily lose if they have their Ace going and some of the young guys step up.
It's a more even match with the contenders: their main guys are banged up and tired, their bullpen is heavily used, their starters have been going every five days for months now. So no let up, none, on the "sub-par" teams.
P.S. Maybe the flu got to Morse yesterday (although I heard he took meds). He just didn't seem alert--although his swing was sweet as ever. He can probably swing when he's asleep...
I seem to be in the minority here with some very knowledgable posters but I still don't think you talk about trades with players during the game. I am not sure what the timeline was and why Davey or Rizzo did not let Jesus know something but I would have definitely not let him know until after the games were over. Again, his mind needed to be on what was happening at that minute. Not about next week, next year or even tomorrow. No one seems upset that Leon was not notified. Its just that reporters got to Jesus before management and yes, that is regrettable but not the end of the world.
More thoughts about it being too early to talk of playoffs. When I get emails from the club asking me to make major financial decisions on playoff tickets its pretty hard to block that out. Even if I wasn't a season ticket holder are you telling me that you block out playoff hopes/talks/dreams because its too far away or they are having an average run instead of the above average ball they have been playing all season?? Do you really think, as fans, that if you don't think or talk about it we will have a better chance. That is silly. Its a game. Some of us are beyond passionate, and some of us are negative. I chose to be happy we are in this playoff run and if my heart gets broken it will still be a game that I have loved for over 60 years, and I will have enjoyed the ride.
Go Nats!!
Natslady - a guy on a losing team who is eager to make an impression is a dangerous player. They are all about today and they will put it all out there. By the way - I have mentioned before that my son and daughter-in-law , although Nats fans, are involved with their community and the minor league boosters in their city. They know a lot of the Marlins farm hands. Yesterday's relief pitcher, Hatcher -- was a catcher who the organization converted to a pitcher. Kind of a reverse Ankiel. Hatcher and Hand were the battery at some games I have gone to with them.
JaneB said...
How could they not have told Flores, right after they told Suzuki's agent the deal was done? Then tell the press before him? Apart from Kurt, this deal impacted no one more than Jesus.
If the Nationals had not told the press the instant the deal went down, the A's would have. And the Nats could not have stopped them from doing that. And as soon as one team announces something, in this Twitter age the whole world knows it. As for why they didn't tell Flores and Leon before the doubleheader, you don't tell players "Your replacement is on his way. Now go out and win one for the Gipper", do you?
sjm -- you have got to pull the guy out just as soon as that game ends and talk to him before the reporters get to him. It was a given that they would go to Flores for a reaction. He was blindsided.
I don't know much about it, but it seems like we get these catchers year after year from Venezuala and develop them. Seems like that means we have (a) good scouts there, with connections, and they talk up the Nats' system and (b) we have good minor-league coaches. Those are probably what Billy Beane envies. And as long as we have that and he doesn't we can keep that catcher line moving.
Really glad Rizzo didn't give up Leon or Solano.
Agreed he was blindsided and I think Davey said something in his press conference about having the flu as well. No excuse for not letting him know right after the game but the lose and the sickness probably did affect Davey. Now, for why Rizzo was not right there, I have no clue. I do agree that hearing it from the press is not the way you want things to happen. Glad you do agree that it should take place after the game though.
Go Nats!
you have an irrational need to "win" every single discussion
Pot meet kettle. I had no desire to win anything. I simply raised some questions for discussion. Why didn't the Braves block the trade, knowing of our need for a catcher? Was there really a chance that the A's would let Suzuki go for nothing, rather than pull him back? You're the one who aggressively challenged me to support the premise of my question -- that GMs sometimes use the waiver wire process to block their competitors from getting a player they want. You presented your position not as speculation but as fact. That's why we're arguing.
By the way, Storen made his 8th appearance yesterday, and not one has been in the 9th inning, much less a save situation. So yes, I won that argument.
More thoughts about it being too early to talk of playoffs. When I get emails from the club asking me to make major financial decisions on playoff tickets its pretty hard to block that out.
I asked a friend of mine in Pittsburgh (who's not a STH there) if the Bucs were selling playoff tickets yet. He thinks they are. It's SOP for teams who are still in the hunt this late in the year to do so. Just seems weird to us because it's new to us. I doubt any of this affects the game on the field. The players all know it's going to be a slog and there's still a long way to go yet.
Section 222 said...
you have an irrational need to "win" every single discussion
Pot meet kettle.
You don't see me dragging on the discussion, trying to get the last word in. It's a discussion, not a win-lose proposition. You also can't tell the difference between a rhetorical question/speculation/theory and a debating point. Now, go ahead and tell me I'm wrong about that. You know you want to.
sjm, I am with you on this. I don't know what they were doing during the break between games (besides y'know, showering and changing unis), but they elected not to inform Flores at that point. You think NO ONE looked up at the scoreboard and saw the announcement??? Of course they did. It speaks to their focus that it's game first, worry about roster moves later. Experienced guys like Werth and LaRoche know that the trade deadline is not the end of trades, and they know we needed another catcher.
So Flores had a bad few moments with reporters. Happens all the time (see Lannan, John--or any pitcher who got shelled). A lot of "feelings" are gonna get hurt and friends are going to fall by the wayside (see Ankiel, Rick). Welcome to the pennant race, Jesus.
Maybe Rizzo is out somewhere looking for a middle infielder, y'know, so he can dump Espinosa. Um, NOT!
I get why they didn't tell Flores and Leon before the games about the trade, though I disagree with that decision. But they definitely should have told them immediately after, before the press arrived. (And they very well may have told Leon since he's going back to Syracuse today.) I'm actually surprised that Flores didn't find out in between games. Don't they have MLB Network playing all the time in the clubhouse?
And you know, Flores is only our starting catcher because of an injury to Ramos. He's not getting DFA'd or sent down. I understand he was blindsided last night, but he better suck it up and accept his new role. That's what he's getting paid $850K this year to do.
sjm, I'm totally with you on playoff speculation. If the team is sending out playoff ticket info, surely a few fans discussing our prospects aren't going to jinx anything. Playoff fever is too much fun to try to suppress it because of superstition.
Now, go ahead and tell me I'm wrong about that. You know you want to.
Nah. We've burdened our fellow posters with our petty dispute long enough. Feel free to have the last word.
222, save or not, I'm troubled by Storen's slow return. We need him in the bullpen, and as more than a ROOGY, especially with CMW about to take up residence there, which I assume will mean Mattheus goes down for three weeks (August 11 - Sept. 1)--unless Davey is willing to part with TyMo.
222, not to worry. You automatically win because a racist pr*** always loses. Have no idea what the argument was because some things I refuse to waste my eyesight on.
On another note - game tonight. Did the Marlins make any roster moves today? Seems that Donnie Murphy and Bonifacio both got injured yesterday. I am hoping that the Nats can pull it together with the roster change and the stomach bug and pick up some wins from these supposedly beatable clubs. The Marlins still have plenty of quality players out there on the field. Strange week for the nats - 2 wins - from their #5 and #6 pitchers. If the bullpen continues to hiccup a little, maybe Davey will have to let the starters go a little deeper into games.
Also, does the fact that Rizzo and Beane had been talking about Suzuki for a week, but the trade wasn't consummated until the deadline suggest that Beane wanted someone from our system other than Freitas but Rizzo wouldn't budge?
And it may also have been the opposite as it was in the Gio trade. Beane holding fast and Rizzo getting a tad desperate. I am fairly certain Rizzo would not want to trade the best offensive catcher he currently had in the system. But he had to to get the kind of defensive help they needed at the major league level. And Suzuki is still just 28 years old. He was the A's face-of-the-franchise. Which I am certain Beane keep harping on when speaking with Rizzo.
Phils had to put Chooch Ruiz on the dl.
NL, agree on Storen. His slow start has been frustrating. Did they start his rehab too soon? We definitely need him down the stretch.
I expect Rizzo will find some way to not have to use up a roster spot this month with CMW. He pretty much has no value to the team right now.
Now, for why Rizzo was not right there, I have no clue. I do agree that hearing it from the press is not the way you want things to happen.
The trade was finally consummated between games in a double header. There was a 45 minute break. Would you want a key player distracted by the notion that his replacement is on a plane headed this way for today's game? Yes, its selfish ... but they aren't going to give up on Flores that's the thing they have to keep asserting when dealing with him. They stuck with him through the shoulder surgeries and rehab. At some point he is just point he is just going to have accept that he isn't physically capable of handling 140+ games in the majors. That would be a hard thing for Flores to swallow coming back from the adversity he has endured. In the end, like most everyone else he has to compete for his job.
Funny how they will get a replacement for Flo, but are willing to put up with Danny's struggles, no matter what. He has been killing them in the 6 hole, where Desi used to come through so often with RISP.
Right now, defensively, he looks like the best shortstop in the National League. And we know what he can do at second base? And he probably could even play third base at the same level. Honestly, I knew this would happen few remember having to put up with a JimBo Geppetto the shoemaker roster construction in the MI with short covered by Guzman and second covered by players like FLop. Another diving stop by Vidro ... sheesh.
THIS IS A LOT BETTER and the record reflects it does it not?
Like it or not Espinosa has the potential to make Hanley Ramirez look like FLop (okay so Hanley is helping with that) if he can ever get past his stubborn streak and provide consistent hitting. He is too good an athlete and his character too good not to do that. He is STILL young, its only his sophomore season. Give him a chance to work his way out of it. Just as Desmond apparently did in his sophomore season.
NatsJack, it was a year ago that we were analyzing the 2012 Free Agent class like Buehrle, Crisp and Beltran.
Suzuki has his 2013 audition and Eury and Corey will both get to make their impact in September.
I wonder what happens to Chris Marrero as TyMo has done great.
It would help Rizzo to get TyMo back for a couple of weeks to play every day in Syracuse as he has lost the edge he had back in that Toronto series.
Espinosa--please, people, can we have some patience? Remember Desi, remember Detwiler, these are works-in-progress.
swami--this is what I got from Twitter.
Juan C. Rodriguez @JCRMarlinsbeat
#Marlins place Emilio Bonifacio on 15-day DL with left thumb sprain; select Nick Green (#3) from NOLA
Because Suzuki is under contract next year for over 6 million and Atlanta and the Dodgers don't need a catcher they probably didn't want to chance it with Beane and the A's who are a cost conscious team.
As the A's fans like to say their team is likely an overachiever who will fall back to the mean. Except that they do have some tough character types like our own Tommy Milone who will never say die. They lost a big one in Suzuki it'll be interesting to see how they fare with the defensively inferior Derrick Norris in there for most games. A's fans assume that Beane will pick up a veteran to help our former top 10 prospect as Suzuki has.
The other GM's probably perceive the A's this way. They know its a struggle for them right now just to field a major league team and compete. I'm sure the Commissioner's office has told everyone to give the A's some leeway as they cut costs and attempt to rebuild a team that will be ready to compete in the new market of San Jose.
Starting a rookie like Norris at catcher over Suzuki does not say you are making a run for the playoffs. Its says you are rebuilding. The A's have acquired some strong character type prospects who do not like to lose. We'll see how that goes.
It would help Rizzo to get TyMo back for a couple of weeks to play every day in Syracuse as he has lost the edge he had back in that Toronto series.
Marerro is injured I guess he is still suffering side effects associated with the torn hamstring. He won't be up on September 1st unless he is past the injury. He looks like a guy who will be playing winter ball this season.
What do they do with Marerro? Play him in Syracuse to raise his trade value. He will never play any other position outside of first base as T-Mo has begun to do. Given the dearth of power required at the corner position he will likely end up as a bench player in the majors. He can hit.
LaRoche looks like a sure bet to have his option renewed. That means both T-Mo and Morse stay in the outfield or a trade occurs. Like the "white flag" teams the Nats need an infusion of new prospects and the best way to get that is through trading since they are miserable when it comes to International signings.
I want to go on record and I have no idea why :-) that I did not know anything about the timeline of exactly when the trade was made.
I was at the DH yesterday because it was the rained out replacement for my season ticket game. I had left for the ballgame before Mark posted the trade and I only saw it on a TV when I was getting a beer. Good thing it wasn't posted on the giant scoreboard during the game that might have been a little awkward for Flores.
I now understand how Flores got blindsided by the reporter. With information traveling so fast now (see Ryan Dempster) who got contacted before the team could ask for his permission for the trade, 10/5 guy, it is understandable how this occurred. It's not like Jim Bowden on the radio which I think some of us can remember.
On another topic I really liked this article The horrors of getting hit by a pitch, which has some very honest insights from a lot of ballplayers including ALR on what its like to be HBP.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8195515/what-feels-get-hit-pitch
Nats Lady -- totally get where you're coming from re concern about Druuuu but remember that like most of June for Morse, this is still his 3-4 weeks of spring training. And it's worse for a pitcher than a position player. If a hitter goes 3 for 20 because ut's in effect their ST it hurts but is in effect no different than a slump that happens to everyone at some point but when it's a reliever blowing in 3or 4 hitters a starter's dominant performance, it damages the whole team -- and a team in contention this late in the season simply cannot afford to let him "work his way through" it. (Not saying you said that, just that that would be the rationale for keeping in an inconsistent reliever in ST or a non-contending team.). Also remember that Druuuu got lit up in ST 2011 and then was fine when th regular season started. The real problem is that we can't afford to give him enough time to work it out. In hindsight it might have been better to give him the full time in rehab where they could regard his appearances as tantamount to ST, but who would have expected him to be so shaky?
Re JFlo, not going to get into the "when should they have told him" thing, only want to note that the Suzuki deal is NOT necessarily a statement that he has no future with the Nats. As a few have pointed out, Ramoose's recovery by next Spring may be complete, delayed, or never. Just no way of knowing, so Suzuki is insurance BOTH for the pennant race this season AND against the uncertainty of what the Nats will have in both Ramos and JFlo, both of whom are coming back from very difficult injuries on different timetables. Also that Solano and Leon are both promising but not there to be a dependable backup for a starter of uncertain injury recovery and durability on a playoff team.
Just reflecting, though, that NONE of these issues arise with a non-contending team, because August and September for them are about finding out what you have for next year. Margin for experimentation is a lot smaller with a contender.
peric, isn't winter ball where Marrero got hurt? (I could be mistaken). If it was, his agent might not want a repeat...
Flores just has really fallen off a cliff this year. He doesn't even look like the same player as last year. Mentally, he looks lost. It seems like his hitting, or lack of, has totally effected his whole well being. Whatever, if my feeling are correct, he has played himself out of town. Rizzo seems like the type of guy that if he likes you, he likes you.....and if he doesn't like you, its adios baby. I think the only reason Flores is not gone now is we have no other options
You think NO ONE looked up at the scoreboard and saw the announcement??? Of course they did.
Zuckerman seems to be using this scoreboard announcement of the trade as justification for the press ambushing Flores with news of the Suzuki deal before he'd heard about it. Well, I was in my seat with a direct view of the scoreboard for the entire 18 innings of play yesterday. I never got up once, and I didn't see or hear this supposed scoreboard announcement. I'm sure the players on the field and in the dugout pay a lot less attention to the big board than I do, so the chances that any of them saw it are slim at best. I bet many of the players don't even know that Dierks Bentley is coming. And if by chance any of the players other than Flores did learn of the trade during the games, the last thing they're going to do is talk with Flores about it. They have today's game to play, beaver to shoot and lots of other things to keep them occupied out there.
Eury and Corey will both get to make their impact in September.
Not sure about that. Corey's been up twice and had all of 20 plate appearances. How can he get much work in September, with Bernadina, Moore, and DeRosa ahead of him as backup OFs and PHs? Eury will have even fewer opportunities.
I agree that Moore should be the next one to go back to Syracuse this month. I'm sure he'd prefer to stay (FP was pretty funny about that during yesterday's broadcast), even if he never gets in a game, but I'd much rather keep Mattheus up here if a choice has to be made. Moore can be back in September, and then on the roster as a RH DH for the World Series. :-)
A's fans assume that Beane will pick up a veteran to help our former top 10 prospect as Suzuki has.
Actually, they already did that when they traded for Kottaras a couple weeks ago. That's why they had to send Norris down, briefly. Pretty much every A's fan I know figured that Zook and his salary were on the way out as soon as the Kottaras deal was announced.
I saw the announcement on the scoreboard. It was up there clear as day with a picture of Suzuki and his stats. It was about up there for about the same length of time as those minor-league player-of-the-week things... I didn't know Biers Dentyl or whatever is coming, though, because I don't pay attention to the concert stuff.
I wasn't in my seat for 18 innings, but I saw the announcement during the second game while the scoreboard was showing huge pictures. It got a big cheer from the crowd. But I totally agree that players don't look at the scoreboard (except maybe for out of town scores). And I guess I can understand why the other players didn't talk to Flores about it during the first game, but he wasn't playing the second game. Seems a little odd that he didn't hear anyone, even Gio, talking about it.
The trade was announced around 2:30 pm yesterday, well before the start of the first game. I think the reporters were as shocked as everyone else that Flores hadn't heard about it.
No idea what you mean by beaver shoot. Well, I do. But no idea why you'd say that.
I think Rizzo made things very clear about Flores future with the Nats.
"We're going to have two pretty good catchers when Ramos gets healthy at the beginning of spring training," Rizzo said. "And we'll have a veteran presence behind a good, young player."
So - things are getting pretty serious now. Anyone else think it was just a little more fun in the first half?
No idea what you mean by beaver shoot. Well, I do. But no idea why you'd say that.
You think players don't still shoot beaver during games? Boy are you naive.
Sect,222, not sure about that? Impact is felt in different ways. As Corey Brown showed he can suicide squeeze and hit HRs. Eury Perez will be an impactful baserunner.
Where did I say they would be starting? I said "impact".
I think Corey Brown left quite an impression that he can bring some skills to the table. Pinch hit, nice center field, baserunning smarts and speed, baseball IQ --lots of nice little things for the manager to pull out of his pocket when he needs them. Perez - legs. You get Morse to second and third late in a game and you need a runner? Perez is the guy. In September you can have guys that specialize in little things like that.
Just read the article on HBP. Thanks much. After reading that, I am even less inclined to worry about Flores and the scoreboard and the reporters.
I saw the announcement during the second game while the scoreboard was showing huge pictures. It got a big cheer from the crowd.
Maybe I did hear that cheer, coming at a random time. I thought it was just idiots trying to get the wave going. I looked up at that point, and if the trade announcement was on the board, it was gone by then. I doubt any player noticed it. Also doubt that even if they had MLB Network on in the clubhouse before/during/between the games that a player could have learned of the trade that way. They weren't doing saturation coverage of it, I'm sure. Probably would have had to read the news in a crawl.
Natlady,
The announcement was in the second game right? I did not see it in the first game however I did see it before the end of the 2rd inning in the first game on a TV on the bottom of the Red Porch where they have better beer.
I was surprised when I saw it because they had a picture of Suzuki in a Nat's cap so I was wondering if I missed the trade and he might be starting the second game. I could not hear the TV but I could tell we made the trade I just was not sure when. I guess they photo shopped the cap on since he was probably still in Oakland.
SF Nat's fan thanks for the explanation for why they sent Norris down I saw where Beane gave Norris credit for the good run they had I just couldn't explain the praise and being sent down, now it makes sense.
The A's are playing well but if you look at their September schedule I don't know any team that can run that gauntlet successfully.
peric, isn't winter ball where Marrero got hurt? (I could be mistaken). If it was, his agent might not want a repeat...
Sure, but he's way behind now and has seen a significant drop in the depth chart. If he wants to compete in spring training he had better be ready to rock and roll methinks. He is going to be 4th possibly 5th on the offensive corner infielder depth chart given Skole's continuous raking this season.
baseballswami said...
So - things are getting pretty serious now. Anyone else think it was just a little more fun in the first half?
No baseballswami this is when the fun begins! All the baseball I've watched over the years it's the close pennant and division races I remember. Some of my favorite teams did not make the playoffs.
I will never forget this year. This is the first year that real competitive baseball came to Washington even if they don't win the WS. All I want them to do is to compete down to the end and I will be happy.
Perez, Brown, Moore, possibly Walters only play if there are injuries. Given the promotion you have to wonder if Walters gets placed on the 40-man at some point before September 1st if he proves his mettle in Syracuse in August. I guess Rivero might end up as an odd man out after all as a result. He continues to improve but ...
Actually, they already did that when they traded for Kottaras a couple weeks ago.
I guess he only really has a couple of years experience. The A's fans view him as insurance. They don't see him as a veteran at Suzuki's level. Maybe they pick up Koyie Hill? :)
Fox, I wouldn't make a good eye witness. I got the internet to work briefly and read the story on Mark's site plus some comments. Then I saw it on the scoreboard and just nodded to myself because it confirmed what I already knew. Can't put a time stamp on it. :)
Dj...Hmmmm....didn't hear or read Rizzo's statements about the catching for next year. Rizzo strikes me as a hard ass blue collar type guy. I think he had had it with Flores's pouting and breaking bats on the ground every time he hit into a double play or struck out. And NatsJack....as you know that legendary American Legion coach we talked about earlier always used to say "G-Dammit, its a mans game!" Snake would of loved Harper
Peric, I don't see Walters added until it is absolutely needed. Removing players is risky business which is why Koyie Hill wasn't added. The Nats are 2 men burdened in their 40 man due to Rendon and Purke.
baseballswami at 2:33, well said. That's how I see the impact.
Ghost and swami, good points. I can see either of them getting an occasional pinch running shot. But how often do you use a pinch runner really? Davey isn't doubleswitch happy with Morse the way Riggs was. Brown made an impression during a time when Werth was out. I just don't see him getting into many games, as a starter or not, in the September. Could be wrong though. Wouldn't be the first time. :-)
Extra relievers are more likely to make an impact during a September pennant race than position players. They can be used for an inning or one batter, or to save wear and tear on the top tier guys in a blowout. It's interesting how Davey, who at one point expressed a preference for a six man bullpen (something that's not workable unless you have three starters who can go 8 innings per outing), really enjoyed having an 8 man pen. He'll be happy as a clam in September.
Thought there would be no more koyie hill posts but there it is at 2:54
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