Friday, October 26, 2012

Is Zimmerman injury-prone?

US Presswire photo
Ryan Zimmerman has played in an average of 139 games over seven full seasons.
The news yesterday that Ryan Zimmerman had arthroscopic surgery to repair the right shoulder sprain that hampered him all season didn't come as much of a surprise. All along, Zimmerman and the Nationals knew offseason surgery was probable.

But it did raise a question that has been posed a few times over the years: Is Zimmerman injury-prone, and is that a concern for the Nationals considering they've got him under contract for seven more seasons and more than $100 million?

To be sure, Zimmerman has dealt with his share of injuries since he was drafted by the Nationals in 2005.

-- He broke the hamate bone in his left wrist following the 2007 season and required surgery to remove it.

-- He spent two months on the disabled list in 2008 with a tear in his left shoulder.

-- A couple of nagging injuries cost him 20 total games in 2010.

-- An abdominal tear in 2011 required surgery and cost him three months.

-- And, of course, there was the sprained AC joint in Zimmerman's right shoulder that plagued him throughout this season.

On the surface, that sounds like a lot, and perhaps cause for concern. But nearly every major-league ballplayer not named Cal Ripken Jr. or Livan Hernandez is going to be sidelined with injuries at some point in his career.

The question is whether Zimmerman is sidelined more than others, particularly those who play his same position.

A more detailed examination of that suggests Zimmerman doesn't appear to be any more injury-prone than most big-league third basemen and has kept himself on the field as much as almost any of his contemporaries.

Since he became a full-time major leaguer at the start of the 2006 season, Zimmerman has played in more games (970) than all but two fellow third basemen: David Wright (1,033) and Adrian Beltre (993).

Of course, plenty of other third basemen in the game today haven't been around as long as Zimmerman, Wright and Beltre. So a more apt exercise would be to compare the average number of games played per season among third basemen.

In that regard, Zimmerman still stacks up well. Among active third basemen who have held down regular jobs for at least three years, Wright leads the way with an average of 149 games per season in his career. Chase Headley (148), Beltre (146), Mark Reynolds (142) and Alberto Callaspo (142) rank second through fifth.

Next up on the list: Zimmerman, whose average of 139 games played during his career is equal to Aramis Ramirez and Alex Rodriguez.

Third basemen who have averaged fewer games per season than Zimmerman: Chipper Jones (138), Pablo Sandoval (132), Chone Figgins (129), Evan Longoria (127), Scott Rolen (125) and Placido Polanco (115).

So, what's the final verdict? Is Zimmerman injury-prone? It doesn't appear he is any more than the typical big-league third baseman. That doesn't mean he might suffer more debilitating injuries over the rest of his career, and perhaps the long-suggested thought of a switch to first base could become reality at some point down the road.

But at this stage, Zimmerman has managed to keep himself on the field commensurate with most third basemen. And we've certainly seen how good of a ballplayer he is when he's been on the field.

155 comments:

JaneB said...

Just like Jose Reyes is injury prone but spectacular, I'll take Zimm in any form we can have him. Though I think we'll all like tis surgically repaired version better. MEND WELL!

Sunshine_Bobby_Carpenter_Is_Too_Pessimistic_For_Me said...

More bubble-wrap, please

natsfan1a said...

He's real, and he's spectacular. :-)

Constant Reader said...

Is he injury prone or suffering typical wear and tear for an MLB thirdbaseman? As long as he keeps coming back looking like and MVP-caliber player, everything's fine, right? Or is this the real question here ... ultimately does Ryan Zimmerman need to move to firstbase for us to realize the value of him as a player for the length of his contract?

Seems to me Rizzo's answer to that question dictates our ALR strategy this offseason.

baseballswami said...

If he is or if he isn't - so what? He plays hard, he is fantastic and there doesn't seem to be anything you can do about it. If he didn't show up for spring training in shape, that would be different. Hamate bones are common, the abdominal tear was freak, shoulder stuff is certainly common. Out of our entire lineup the last two years, he is definitely not out of the ordinary -- ALR - missed almost a full season, Morse and Storen - lots of games, Desi - oblique, a couple of Tommy Johns, Werth - broken wrist. Zim was able to patch himself up and play the bulk of the season - very well - he waited until the off season to fix it. If the cortisone hadn't worked, he might have done this during the season, but it did. I don't feel it's time for him to move to first - let's see how 2013 plays out.

Theophilus T. S. said...

The no. of games he played in 2012 -- 130-something -- skews the overall nos. The no. of games he played effectively was somewhere around 100-110. In hindsight it would seem they should have mandated surgery in early May and saved everybody a lot of agony. It might have seemed then that he would heal w/ rest, cortisone but it didn't work out well.

I think Zimmerman needs to learn a few things about body preservation. The nature of the position -- so many plays requiring instant reaction, sacrificing the body -- is that you're going to spend a lot of time w/ your face in the dirt -- even Cabrera is going flat out. On the other hand, I seem to remember a couple of head-first flights into home in early April that were praise-worthy but fool-hardy, because they meant both (A) he was going to come down on unpadded parts and (B) there was a real risk of collision.

There are very few plays at home where going in head first is the difference between safe and out. (Fielder would have safe last night if his big butt wasn't hanging out in the middle of the baseline for Posey to tag it.) Master the slide like Rod Carew and stay healthy.

rabbit34 said...

If the Nationals win the World Series and Zimmerman was out all year, it wouldn't make a bit of difference if he was injury prone. If they finish in last place, it probably wouldn't have made any difference if he was injury prone. If the Nationals were in the World Series and lost, no one would know if it was because Zimmerman was injury prone. So, the question "is he injury prone", is nonsensical. And, you can take that to the bank!! Absolutely!

joemktg said...

1) All players are injury prone. Some get injured more than others, but they're all prone to injury.
2) The sports medicine field is more aware of injuries. Ask Dr. Douoguih: he'll tell you about a study of pitchers from the 90's where 80% of them had labrum issues...and didn't know it.
3) Given the increased knowledge of sports injuries: (1) preventative exercises have increased and improved, and (2) remedial surgery and physical therapy has significantly improved.

There's greater awareness and understanding regarding sport injuries, and there's the subsequent improvement in remedial action.

RickH said...

Interesting perspective. Thanks, Mark.

Theophilus T. S. said...

Rabbit --

That may the most hare-brained comment I've seen posted. Go back in your hole.

fast eddie said...

Off topic, but Jim Bowden was trying to stay relevant on ESPN recently, with a proposed trade:
--Yanks should trade ARod, then send Granderson to the Nats for Rendon and others. (Werth to LF, Harp to RF).
Works for me. Mr.Rizzo, are you listening??

MicheleS said...

Fast Eddie,did he say to trade ARod to the Nats or just Granderson?

MicheleS said...

Okay, if you are on twitter, another funny person to follow for this series the Actor Jeff Daniels. This is one from last night, but he is hilarious/snarky/depressed/raving loon about the tigers.

Jeff Daniels‏@Jeff_Daniels
Doug Fister now has permission to father my next child.

John C. said...

Granderson? I like Curtis, he's fun to watch play baseball. But he is expensive ($13 million for 2013), will be a free agent after next year, and is a lousy candidate for a long term contract. He will be 32 before the next season starts, his defensive skills are deteriorating and his offense has become one dimensional player - he struck out more than Espinosa last year (!) and his OBP was just .319. Yes, he hit 43 HR last year, but 26 were to the short RF porch at Yankee Stadium. A fair number of those become flyouts at Nationals Park.

Bottom line: the Nationals would have to be insane to trade a blue chip prospect like Rendon (and others?!? WHAT?) for one year of Curtis Granderson. That trade pretty much sums up why Bowden [SPIT] is a talking head on ESPN and why Rizzo is the GM.

Joe Seamhead said...

fast eddie-Granderson? For Rendon, AND others? I am so glad Bowden is not our GM anymore. I don't see Mike Rizzo even finishing the sentence if the deal was offered to him.
Granderson struck out 195 times in the regular season, and then struck out 16 more times in 30 postseason AB's. He hit .232 this year, is 31 years old and is a .262. career hitter. No thanks.

pdowdy83 said...

Theo it doesn't seem fair to say Rabbit just said a hair-brained thing after you said Zimmerman should have had surgery in May that would have cost him a good amount of time and possibly skewed the amazing second half he had. What agony was there after he returned from the DL? He had a bad stretch of about 20 games and then went on fire. If he has surgery he is going to miss more time than that.

If you want to talk about his game totals being skewed by him playing 20 extra games this season you can also make the case the in 2010 he would have played more if the team wasn't awful. He said at the end of the season he would have been playing if the team was in contention but that he and the team decided to shut it down because they were way out of it.

I do agree with you on him needing to change the way he slides. I get nervous every time I see him dive headfirst after the abdominal tear.

JamesFan said...

That Rendon for Granderson trade idea is why Bowdin is talking on the radio and Rizzo is the GM. Trade for young stars, not fading ones. I wouldn't bite on any of these dumping operations in NY, Boston, Miami or Philly. There is a reason they are getting rid of these players and it's not all money.

NatsJack in Florida said...

great post pdowdy.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

Agreed JamesFan.

Doc said...

Mark and baseballswami kind of summed it up for me.

The bottom line is that Zim plays hard and puts himself at risk on the occasional play. The wear and tear of the 162 game season puts a player's body through a lot of physical exertion that are beyond normal.

His serious conditioning programs seem to put him in the best position to challenge the season rigors on his body.

Doc said...

Mark and baseballswami kind of summed it up for me.

The bottom line is that Zim plays hard and puts himself at risk on the occasional play. The wear and tear of the 162 game season puts a player's body through a lot of physical exertion that are beyond normal.

His serious conditioning programs seem to put him in the best position to challenge the season rigors on his body.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

The Nats don't need to pick up expensive aging Veterans like Granderson on the trade market as any trade bait has to be stockpiled for the July 31st trade deadline.

The Nats do need 1 Veteran pitcher with a real postseason track record.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

Doc said...
Mark and baseballswami kind of summed it up for me.

The bottom line is that Zim plays hard and puts himself at risk on the occasional play. The wear and tear of the 162 game season puts a player's body through a lot of physical exertion that are beyond normal.

His serious conditioning programs seem to put him in the best position to challenge the season rigors on his body.

October 26, 2012 9:49 AM


That doesn't hold water. Most of his injuries seemed to come out in Spring Training and early in the season. These aren't injuries built up from the "season rigors".

Check your facts.

MicheleS said...

NatsJack..Hope Sandy isn't impacting you to badly. As you know how this area reacts - massive panic is starting.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

The "season rigors" is what Ian Desmond went through and that guy gave his all. He skipped the All Star game for his team and it backfired on him as he stiffened up. That kid is a throwback type of player. Unselfish and 100%. What he did in 2012 should be appreciated by the fanbase plus he is out there every day signing autographs and shaking hands. He doesn't get enough credit in my opinion.

The 162 game schedule is a marathon.

Tcostant said...

Granderson would fit right in with all the strikeout that are hitter do. There are a rumor that the charity wants to use strike outs by our hitter to see how much money they get vs. our pitchers striking out guys.

I;m just kidding - trying to be funny. I don't like this kind of deal either.

NatsJack in Florida said...

Michele...no problems here but I have a day trip to Philadelphia scheduled Tuesday (fly up in the morning, back that evening) that could be at issue.

Faraz Shaikh said...

That's a good idea for charity, Tcostant. I would use it for my charity. :P

blovy8 said...

Who says the guy would be healthier playing 1st? Haven't we had LaRoche miss most of 2011, Dmitri eat his way out of the spot, Nick Johnson miss most of his career?

NatsLady said...

Carlos Rivera (Nationals 3B prospect now playing the Venezuelan Winter League) is profiled in fangraphs. He is hitting pretty well. He has played SS. Could he replace Lombo if Lombo is traded? Or is he trade bait?

daily notes

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/daily-notes-contract-crowdsourcing-lh-relievers/

Kevin FSU said...

I agree with Ghost.

If we get just one A or B grade pitcher either through free agency or a trade, I would be content with going into next season with the rest of our team as is (Adam not signing may change my mind but probably not).

Don't forget to clean out your gutters/drains this weekend before the storm.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

Kevin FSU said...
I agree with Ghost.

If we get just one A or B grade pitcher either through free agency or a trade, I would be content with going into next season with the rest of our team as is (Adam not signing may change my mind but probably not).
October 26, 2012 10:47 AM


Of course re-signing LaRoche is a priority and Rizzo will need 2 Zach Duke types to stash in AAA for those inevitable doubleheaders and insurance for injury.

The Phillies and Braves have a challenging off-season which is replacing key players. The Phillies have to re-build an outfield, 3rd base and their bench and bullpen and the Braves have to replace Chipper and Bourn which is no easy task losing your leadoff and middle of the order veteran bat.

The Marlins will be in a complete rebuild and they need 2 outfielders, 3rd base, 1st base and 2 pitchers and a few bullpen arms.



Ghost Of Steve M. said...

http://www.foxsportsmidwest.com/10/23/12/Lohse-preparing-to-move-on-from-Cardinal/landing_stlcardinals.html?blockID=809091&feedID=8745

Like I said, you can expect all of Boras's top 4 Free Agents (Lohse, Bourn, Madson, RSoriano) to all be tied to the Nats:

"The Los Angeles Dodgers and Washington Nationals seem like two possible destinations for Lohse, who is represented by Scott Boras."

NatsLady said...

This is great, Phil Coke talking about his first encounter with Miguel Cabrera. That man has a future after baseball. Gotta do laundry because, y'know, might not have electricity for a month. ;)

Phil Coke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k-GDPRQ7bos

NatsLady said...

Who would want to manage in Miami? I suppose they will eventually find someone...

Brad Ausmus? Forget it. While the Marlins asked permission of the San Diego Padres to speak with Ausmus about their managerial opening, the former major league catcher -- and one of the hottest up-and-coming names on the list of prospective managers -- is not interested.

According to a high-ranking Padres official, Ausmus told the club he will not pursue the Marlins job. Ausmus is presently a special assistant to Padres general manager Josh Byrnes.


Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/fish_bytes/2012/10/brad-ausmus-not-interested-in-marlins-job.html#storylink=cpy

MicheleS said...

And Add Austin Jackson to the list of people that the Nats are associated with. Looks like he just signed with Boras

SonnyG10 said...

I feel better about Zimmerman after reading this blog. Thanks Mark. I was concerned Ryan might be more injury prone than the average major leaguer, so I'm glad to hear he's not.

D'Gourds said...

I wonder if the shoulder surgery will help Zim's throwing overhand? Hope so.

peric said...

Not really Mark. Look at Zimmerman's batting average without the cortisone shot. Zimmerman is the very best hitter the Nats have. Bar none. Precluding injury and with decent hitters in front and behind him he is capable of an MVP and perhaps even HOF level play offensively.

You remind me of the politicians. One day you are one way and the next in a completely different direction. ~laughing~

I look at advanced stats and all indicate that Zimmerman could be far more productive offensively if he did not suffer injuries. The fact that he is on the field DOES NOT as you demonstrated on a previous post mean that he is productive offensively.

The Nats need Zimmerman's bat. Not for 1/2 to 1/4 of a season. They need his bat far more than his glove. And this is why he should be moved to first base as soon as Anthony Rendon is ready. Rendon might also be considered an injury risk. But, the Nats might as well find out while Zim is still young and capable of moving back to third base with a glove that is gold glove caliber.

peric said...

Who would want to manage in Miami? I suppose they will eventually find someone...

Anyone who wants a shot at being a major league manager. Might just include Randy Knorr. He may be tiring at being Davey's bench coach. He apparently serves as Davey's outlet for his frustrations.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

I find myself on chains of emails and somehow my buddy in Michigan cc'd me on a Tigers email string. These guys are ready to blow their brains out being down 2-0.

I guess its the way it is with diehard fans probably everywhere not just Washington DC. 10 teams entered the postseason and only 1 will be victorious.

peric said...

Carlos Rivera (Nationals 3B prospect now playing the Venezuelan Winter League) is profiled in fangraphs. He is hitting pretty well. He has played SS. Could he replace Lombo if Lombo is traded? Or is he trade bait?

He is out of options at age 23. He either makes the major league roster, is traded, or gets waived ... and likely claimed as the Nats claimed him from the Phillies.

Seems like the Nats have had the most success getting him close to major league ready than did the Phils and the Indians.

peric said...

Rizzo will need 2 Zach Duke types to stash in AAA.

At this point it sure looks to me like Duke makes the team along with Gorzelanny. With the loss of Burnett and Michael Gonzalez's age?

Nats lefties have not panned out as planned with the lone exception of Ross Detwiler. McGreary and Smoker have been stuck in the low minors for way too long. Cory Van Allen didn't pan out as a relief specialist. Robbie Ray is still TBD. Purke and Solis must still be considered starters-to-be.

Propitious trades seem like the only avenue to pursue to fill this critical shortage.

MicheleS said...

I really can't wait to see how the off season unfolds. Do we keep ALR? Will Rizzo go after an OF? Who is the mystery Starting Pitcher that will be in the rotation? Will there be a trade? Can't wait to see it unfold.

peric said...

"The Los Angeles Dodgers and Washington Nationals seem like two possible destinations for Lohse, who is represented by Scott Boras."


Is he left-haned? There's a reason why Lannan and Duke ended up as last seasons' first call ups. Both left-handers needed against the NL East.

Davey strongly prefers to play these kind of matchups. Again, I believe Drew hit the nail on the head: Nats pursue team controllable until 2016 David Price. And if he can't wrangle him look for them to attempt to acquire another left-hander.

Keep in mind, there may be teams willing to take a chance on Purke or Solis. There is also Nate Karns plus guys like Stammen, Lannan, and Clippard.

The Nats do have the wherewithall to make another Gio-like deal.

NatsLady said...

Ghost, it may even be worse for the Tigers who were "on top of the world" after sweeping the Yanks.

Read this for a good laugh. Of course, it's not over, but this prediction has gone by the, er, wayside...

Tigers in 5

http://www.pnj.com/usatoday/article/1653505

NatsLady said...

peric, you say "Zach Duke will make the team" as if that's some kind of given. I repeat, Zach Duke is a free agent. He will get offers as a starter on some teams. Let's see if the Nats can sign him.

SonnyG10 said...

I would love to see us reel in David Price. That would be awesome.

NatsLady said...

Here is yet another article on Lohse. This author doesn't even put the Nats as a longshot. Interesting comps on pitchers his age getting 2-year or longer deals.

Remember this guy? Because I sure had forgotten him.

In order to find a good comparable for Lohse, we can try and find pitchers who have produced similar value around the same age. The two players that jump out in this search are Esteban Loaiza and Jason Schmidt. After a strong year with the Nationals at age-33, Loaiza signed a three-year, $21.4 million contract with the Athletics. Like Lohse, Loaiza had struggled early in his career, and reinvented himself. But Loaiza had slightly less of a track record than Lohse by the time he signed his deal. Loaiza really only had two solid seasons on his resume. And in between those seasons, he had one year where he posted a 5.70 ERA, so there were some reasons to be cautious handing Loaiza his next big deal.

free-agent-preview-kyle-lohse

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/mlb-rumors/20692743/free-agent-preview-kyle-lohse

SonnyG10 said...

NatsLady, thanks for the link to "Tigers in 5". That was funny. Nightingale has to eat crow now.

NatsLady said...

So I looked up Esteban Loaiza to see how he did with the A's after his deal. Let's just say, he was not a success. He never posted an ERA under 5, the A's dumped him onto the Dodgers in 2008 and the White Sox gave him a try and that was about it.

Definitely reason to be cautious about Lohse.

Tcostant said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tcostant said...

Esteban Loaiza is someone my wife is always telling me about. He married some huge pop star in Mexico and they were living the good life. She resently filed for divorce and she implied it was something in his personal life that wasn't another women being the issue. It is quite a saga. They wedding was as big as any Hollywood wedding in the states.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

NatsLady, good posts. Thanks. First off, I don't see the Nats getting Lohse because the price is going to be stupid but the Nats will be in the mix and because of the Boras connection will have that tie-in.

Loaiza is a decent comparison but Lohse's future is bright as he can pick and choose his team from the top tier and needs a good defense behind him to make his game better. He didn't rely on his powerful offense ultimately to win games because he pitched well enough to win with 3 runs of support a game although he did get great run support which is why he had a 16-3 record with a similar ERA to JZim.

Tcostant said...

BTW - If anyone is looking to be part of a season ticket group next year; I have the mezzanine section tickets that are basicly half price because they were part of the Nationals Buy Two Get Two promotion. My ad is below if anyone is interested and you can also e-mail me with my user name at hotmail.

http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/tix/3350852202.html

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

Also I don't know where Peric keeps harping on the Nats needing 3 Left-handed pitchers. Some staffs have just one. The Nats go into 2013 with 3 left-handed starters under control in Gio, Det and Lannan.

Lannan again is insurance in case Rizzo can't find a better starter but like 2012, the Nats went 3 righties and 2 lefties and that's a good mix especially if you can carry 2 good lefty middle relievers.

The Braves will be less left-handed in 2013 and you can't set up your rotation for 1 team that you will play 11% of your season as the other 89% of teams are generally more right-handed or neutral.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/nationals-journal/wp/2012/10/26/adam-laroche-nationals-still-talking-contract/?wprss=rss_nationals-journal

Nothing new on LaRoche, just some good quotes. I like the part about 2 years, 4 years. Uh, 2 years would be done today but we all know as he threw in 4 years as that is what he ultimately wants. That's some serious coin he's going to get because the 1st baseman market stinks which makes the good news that the trade market for teams with young controlable 1st baseman could benefit the Nats if they part with Morse, Moore or Marrero aka 3M

mick said...

hope this is RZimm last surgery for a long time.

can't help it, but I keep thinking that the Nats should be heading for Detroit right now up 2-0, lol

JD said...


Ghost,

I agree with most of your previous post. I definitely don't understand the issue with another lefty in the rotation; I don't think it makes a difference. Now if you are talking about the pen that's a different issue. If Burnett is not back that's a large void. I would strongly recommend we bring Mike Gonzalez back because while he is no superstar he is a pretty effective LOOGY.

Burnett's role was more of a set up guy which really worked well against heavily lefty teams like the Braves and while I like Garcia a lot I still think Davie likes the concept of 2 lefties in the late innings.

As far as the long man is concerned I think that's a little less critical especially when there is not normally a need for a long man when your starting rotation is as good as ours and when you have someone as good as Stammen.

I really don't understand where anyone thinks Madson fits in unless you want to indict Storen based on the infamous last inning - I think that's a mistake.

JD said...


mick,

I'm totally with you.No one can convince me that we couldn't beat the Giants; I really believe we could and would have.

Deep sigh,

JD said...


Marco Scutaro - Another Journeyman middle infielder getting his moment in the sun and getting everyone to overestimate his value.

NatsLady said...

They made a move about Scutaro in his minor league days. I watched in on Netflix last year before he became "famous." Here is a clip.

Player to be named later

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgAXhcJhrys

NatsLady said...

I really don't understand where anyone thinks Madson fits in unless you want to indict Storen based on the infamous last inning - I think that's a mistake.

Same for Soriano, who will be immensely expensive. You already have Clippard and Storen, why would you trade them--creating a huge hole in the bullpen--only to go out and pay big $$ for what you just traded?

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

NatsLady, we will have endure the rumor mill like we did with Prince, but keep in mind, Boras has a way of convincing Mr. Lerner to open up the wallet wide. I don't even think Mrs. Lerner could convince him to that.

I don't think any of them make sense at the dollars they will be commanding, but hey, its not my money.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

JD said...

mick,

I'm totally with you.No one can convince me that we couldn't beat the Giants; I really believe we could and would have.

Deep sigh,

October 26, 2012 2:45 PM


Even with the Melky "The Juicer" Cabrera, the Nats beat them 5 games to 1. No doubt the Nats could've been there. As far as beating Detroit, the Giants have been overly lucky and fortunate on Detroit's mistakes. The Giants pitching has been magical to say the least so far.

Scooter said...

NatsLady, I think I may check out that movie. Thanks.

blovy8 said...

I think it's possible we could re-sign Burnett. He was hurt down the stretch and other teams probably won't understand his value the same way as the Nats FO.

After LaRoche, and the Ejax qualifier, the big question to me is if Lannan is actually offered arbitration and for how much. Fifth starter is up for grabs, at least they could put Morse at first and platoon left right now. If LaRoche wants four years, it's been nice, but good luck.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

blovy8, the problem with Burnett is valuing himself out of the market. He's the one rumored to be walking away from his $3.5 million option thinking he can get a long-term deal like LaRoche.

I think if Burnie agreed to his option the Nats would accept it even though that is a lot of money for a 7th inning set-up man and sometimes LOOGY.

If he walks away, Rizzo may consider other opportunities and I agree with you that LaRoche for a straight 4 years probably isn't going to work although I think a 3 year with a vesting performance option would be fair.

JD said...


blovy8,

I think we get something done with ALR; the vibe seems to be positive from both sides. I agree I wouldn't do 4 years under any circumstances but I think they will resolve that by overpaying for 2.

I think that as far as the last pitching spot the idea of talking about Greinke or Price is crazy. You don't get enough bang for the buck by having 5 expensive starters; even the Yankees never went that route. The 5th spot is a transient place holder until someone young comes up.

Ghost is absolutely right in that we have to improve the depth of our pitching for Syracuse and I am confident that Rizzo can find a couple of Duke type pitchers in the scrap heap.

JD said...


Ghost,

in 2015 both Zim and Werth will be right around $20 mil each and I think Gio will be close to $10 mil when you also add Desi, JZimm, Stras and all the others I am not sure you want a $15 mil commitment to ALR as well.

baseballswami said...

One thing with Zim- when he is not on the dl, or sitting because of a minor injury, he plays ever single solitary day. When he first came up I think he had at least one season that he did play every game. I haven 't looked it up, but I seem to recall. That might have been the start of things breaking on him, even then. It's a very long, arduous season and even if he is not playing hurt, do you really think he should play every game? I just think some games on the bench might be advantageous. We have the bench for that.

blovy8 said...

I hadn't realized it was a mutual option involved with Burnett. I think the leverage in a LaRoche deal is pretty equal, he's at the top of a weak class with Napoli, since I suppose no one thinks Ortiz is playing 1st everyday anymore, but he's going to be 33 and most good teams appear to have options at his position. Two years and an option seems to be a good compromise. But it was just last year when everyone thought they'd be eating a lot of years on that Werth contract, so I dunno.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

blovy8, I could be wrong on that with Burnie but my understanding is he wants to turn down his deal to negotiate a long-term deal.

I'm not sure how Rizzo values him. As JD says above, you start adding up the long-term salaries with the escalators and then the youngsters like Bryce and Stras and you can get choked quickly by the shear weight of the salaries and start feeling the pinch like the high-end teams.

You don't want to get like the Phillies with their Howard deal.

NatsLady said...

It seems to me that, when healthy, Burnett could be a closer. Even though a lefty, he didn't have much of a platoon split and worked the full inning. So he probably wants a 2-year deal (with a non-contending team) at a closer's salary and he knows he won't get that here.

NatsLady said...

This is what is getting picked up off the scrap heap. You can bet a quality guy like Burnett is going to get more than $3MM even though he is not a starter.

The Royals claimed Chris Volstad off of waivers from the Cubs, MLB.com's Carrie Muskat reports (on Twitter).

Volstad, 26, had been a non-tender candidate in Chicago following a season in which he posted a 6.31 ERA in 111 1/3 innings. The 6'8" right-hander provides Kansas City with some rotation depth. In four seasons with the Marlins he posted a 4.59 ERA with 5.8 K/9 and 3.1 BB/9.

Volstad earned $2.7MM in 2012 as a first time eligible player and his salary can't be reduced by more than 20% if he's tendered a contract through the arbitration process. In fact MLBTR contributor Matt Swartz projects a 2013 salary of $3MM for Volstad.



Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/10/royals-claim-chris-volstad.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter#5Tso2QIOooZeI7l4.99

JD said...


blovy8,

Don't kid yourself; that Werth deal is still going to be an albatross in years to come. He just completed year 2 of a 7 year deal and even though he had a very good year there is already a decline in power and in defense and in the ability to stay on the field.

Werth may prove to be a decent leadoff hitter because he still gets on base a large percent of the time but you can't assume that this will continue for 5 more years.

NatsLady said...

JD, I see a small decline in defense, but the decline in power and "time on the field" has to be attributed to the broken wrist, for this year at least. (Still tough to figure what happened last year). I think we have to see next year before you can make a prediction of how much he will drop off as he ages--will it be precipitous or gradual?

JD said...


NL,

Even if it's gradual I think it's fair to speculate that he won't be a big time player throughout his contract and at the end of his contract his salary will that of a super star.

baseballswami said...

I think the Werth contract was a one-time bonus payment to get a guy on the team who would help change the culture in the clubhouse. They paid him for his name, his resume, his knowledge of the nl east, his baseball smarts, his baserunning, his leadership,his competitiveness and lots of other things they felt the team needed. It was what Rizzo felt he needed to do at the time. He shouldn't have to do it again, though. Having Jayson Werth around, whether he hits fifth or first or whatever, is not going to be that big of a hardship for a while. They will deal with it when the time comes. If this last year after the injury is any indication then he is not done quite yet. Game Four - enough said.

Gonat said...

I read the Kilgore story. Funny. Its the typical Free Agent code speak. If Adam really would be satisfied with 2 years I could get that signed today for him. We all know he wants a 3 to 4 year deal and thats where the negotiation stands.

Gonat said...

The Werth overpay was done purposely as a message to Baseball that the Nats were players and were open for business.

It was a gross overpay but they knew what they were doing and 3 years from now is when they will absorb that huge contract where his production probably wont be near the contractual pay at the time. Right now its an issue or prohibitive.

Gonat said...

How did the Orioles miss on Volstad?

Gonat said...

baseballswami said...
I think the Werth contract was a one-time bonus payment to get a guy on the team who would help change the culture in the clubhouse. They paid him for his name, his resume, his knowledge of the nl east, his baseball smarts, his baserunning, his leadership,his competitiveness and lots of other things they felt the team needed. It was what Rizzo felt he needed to do at the time. He shouldn't have to do it again, though. Having Jayson Werth around, whether he hits fifth or first or whatever, is not going to be that big of a hardship for a while. They will deal with it when the time comes. If this last year after the injury is any indication then he is not done quite yet. Game Four - enough said.
October 26, 2012 5:47 PM
_____________________________


Good job Baseballswami! I was just responding myself on the Werth contract but you did a better job than I.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

baseballswami and Gonat et al, people that fully understand the magnitude of Werth's worth. I applaud those who were on board last year on the Werth deal and hope you remember these thoughts in a few years when his tools decline while he is getting crazy money.

Theophilus T. S. said...

I wouldn't be surprised if LaRoche was looking for a five-year deal. His chances of getting a multi-year deal at 35, 36 or 37 diminish every year. Players are always looking at their next contract.

Some other team will give him three+ -- Texas being a good possibility, although they are said to be burdened by Michael Young's long-term deal and may be trying to move him.

If the Nats want him, they'll have to give him three years plus a team option with a significant buy-out, or two years plus a very hefty player option, or maybe even two.

baseballswami said...

Ghost - having been a baseball fan for more years than I would like to admit, I have no illusions about the last couple of years of Werth's contact. They did what they had to do. Maybe he will continue to reinvent himself like Barry Zito is doing! I am ok with it as long as they don't do it again and again. There are quite a few teams that have died out because they have so many of those contracts that they have to play out. I do think it was a one-time thing. Hoping.

baseballswami said...

I was just reading an article from a twitter link - do you know that the Yankees have a director of mental conditioning? Is that a sports shrink? The article is actually amusing -- when Girardi pinch hit for A Rod , he called the press box and asked them not to say ARod's name so that he wouldn't be embarrassed that he was being pinch hit for. Really? You pay me that much money and I don't do my job I deserve to be embarrassed. Delicate psyches of rich athletes...

NatsLady said...

Did you see that the Reds won the award for best medical/training staff? I wonder how they evaluate that.

Theophilus T. S. said...

Reds award is carryover from Marge Schott -- received award for best veterinarian.

ehay2k said...

Hey all, been traveling on the other side of the world with no internet access for a while - since a couple days after game 5. Was originally ticked off that I would have to miss the NLCS. I can't say I feel much better knowing that I missed it but that the Nats were not in it.

By pure chance, I was with my kids looking for a parking spot in Alexandria a day or two after game 5 and we saw Sean Burnett. I rolled down my window and thank him and the Nats for a great season. I also asked about his arm and he said it was fine. Lastly, I asked "How's Drew?". He said he was getting better, and I said to tell Drew that he pitched great, and that he didn't let us down. It was just the nature of baseball.

Dave, thanks for the shout out in a previous thread about my predictions. I am actually more pleased about my prediction of the creaking Philthies' demise than any other. ;-) Of course, I was just lucky to get any of them right (I must point out that I am luckier than Mark Z.!)

Mark Z. - the in-game posts within the threads are really good, IMHO. it's much easier to read your posts that way than to scroll up to the top every few minutes. Do you think it would be worth it to aggregate all your posts an put them into the main body of your blog post when you are done? I realize it's more work, but it does make it easier to later go back and see just what you've written. I also LOVE the countdown to ST because it reminds you that the date continually gets closer. To me, that cannot come fast enough.

I have no idea what Rizzo will do in the offseason, but I am behind him 100% based on his track record. I do think that Morse, with a couple strong MLB seasons and good MilB stats as well, could be serious trade bait. There really isn't any room for him on this team and he could end up with a long-term contract on an AL team. He would benefit and so would the Nats if the deal was right. Maybe we do another deal with the A's?

Everyone stay safe in the Hurricane, or frankenstorm, or whatever they call it next. Also, I have purchased all the toilet paper in NoVA so if you need any in the next week or so, look for my TP site on Ebay. (Gotta pay for next year's ST's!!) :-p

NatsLady said...

Just got done commiserating with commiserating with a piano student and her father who were at Games 4 and 5. We were able to talk about other things also--I guess recovery is in progress... Glad you were able to convey that message to Drew, I hope he takes it to heart and comes back stronger. Saw Clip on Twitter with his golf score (par 70 at SaddleBrook) but haven't seen Drew, it has to be hard.

baseballswami said...

Drew's mom is on twitter - she is pretty funny, actually. Any of you who tweet could probably relay a message through her.

NatsJack in Florida said...

hmmm beer:...hmmmm

baseballswami said...

Milk, bread, toilet paper, beer. Check.

Gonat said...

Theophilus T. S. said...
I wouldn't be surprised if LaRoche was looking for a five-year deal. His chances of getting a multi-year deal at 35, 36 or 37 diminish every year. Players are always looking at their next contract.

Some other team will give him three+ -- Texas being a good possibility, although they are said to be burdened by Michael Young's long-term deal and may be trying to move him.

If the Nats want him, they'll have to give him three years plus a team option with a significant buy-out, or two years plus a very hefty player option, or maybe even two.

October 26, 2012 6:30 PM
___________________________________

Of course you only want to offer him a 2 year deal but why not get him close to what he ultimately wants which is 3 years with a vesting option for year 4. If he plays 150 games in 2015 then he should get the 4th year.

NatsFanJim said...

Prediction: La Roche will not be signing with the Nats. He will get a 4-5 year deal elsewhere and he will take it.

Morse to 1b

to all you Morse haters -- get used to it -- Rizzo loves the Beast. Trade our only .300 hitter who hits bombs -- and saying there is not room on this team for our best hitter? get real, what a stupid dweeb.

rabbit34 said...

When Zimmerman plays everyday he is a strikeout and wild throw waiting to happen. When he doesn't play, his fielding is missed. Take that to the bank also. Absolutely.

natsfan1a said...

So *that's* what happened to it! I noticed when I did my panic-shopping that there wasn't any. That may explain the run on paper towels as well. :-) (Actually, I was doing my normal Friday grocery shopping, but there were plenty of panic-shoppers there as well. You know them by the aimless wandering, sudden stops in the middle of aisles, and cartloads of milk bottles.)

Everyone stay safe in the Hurricane, or frankenstorm, or whatever they call it next. Also, I have purchased all the toilet paper in NoVA so if you need any in the next week or so, look for my TP site on Ebay. (Gotta pay for next year's ST's!!) :-p

Faraz Shaikh said...

NatsFanJim, with some real insider information.

NatsLady said...

Adam LaRoche had, basically, the same season he's had for years, slightly better perhaps, but not anything like an extreme outlier. He was only able to get a two-year (plus mutual option) contract when he was 30. Now he is two years older (32) and he spent a year off with an injury. I don't see him getting a four- or five-year guaranteed contract. Granted the market is thin, but which team is he getting it with? Most teams have Tyler Moore types in their farm systems. With no DH in the National League, that is where they go.

NatsLady said...

We value LaRoche for his D, but he didn't win the Fielding Bible award (Texeira did) and chances are he won't win the Gold Glove. We see--rightly, IMO--things that don't show up on the stat sheets.

Bottom line, if both sides want something (and they say they do), it's hard to imagine they won't find a way.

Theophilus T. S. said...

NL -- It's a question of who needs LaRoche in a FA market where most of the avails are penny stocks. Texas has been itching to upgrade at 1B for two years, has three people (Young, Moreland, Napoli) for whom they have no love, at least at that position. Boston has the need and the money, if in fact LaRoche wasn't turned off by the way he got sloughed off the last time he was there. Baltimore could really use him as the best way to deploy Chris Davis could be in the OF (in the playoffs he showed off a very good arm) -- and the O's have the Nats MASN TV money to play with. Houston and Seattle are wild cards, and there are other teams that need a LaRoche as much as the aforementioned even though I doubt they are motivated to spend money. There are enough team to bid the price up pretty high.

Gonat said...

Rendon was the only Nat that played yesterday in the AFL game. He went 1-2 with a double and Sac Fly and a Walk had a stolen base.

Gonat said...

NatsLady said...
We value LaRoche for his D, but he didn't win the Fielding Bible award (Texeira did) and chances are he won't win the Gold Glove. We see--rightly, IMO--things that don't show up on the stat sheets.

Bottom line, if both sides want something (and they say they do), it's hard to imagine they won't find a way.

October 27, 2012 9:19 AM
____________________________________

With Adrian Gonzalez in the American League, this could be the year he wins the NL Gold Glove as Votto was out for a good part of the year.

Votto is a very good 1st base glove too. Tex is a really good all around 1st baseman and AGone not far behind him.

fast eddie said...

NatsFanJim:
Totally agree that ALR will get a 5-yr. deal from SOMEBODY:
1) His kids are young enough to handle one last re-location
2) He'll be financially secure for a lifetime
3) At 37, he can watch his kids play high school ball and hunt full-time, OR go DH in the Al

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

Nobody has a better glove receiving throws at 1st base than Adam LaRoche but he is not good on lateral range on balls hit to his right and worse on balls to his left. Not sure if it is his lack of speed or reaction time.

Tyler Moore happens to have good lateral movement in the limited work I have seen at 1st.

It's those errant throws that LaRoche has done a great job on. Unfortunately I can recall 3 times last season where the umps have called him off the bag when in fact he was on the bag so he has to sell that better.

In my mind, he's the NL Gold Glove.




Gonat said...

Ghost Of Steve M. said...
Tyler Moore happens to have good lateral movement in the limited work I have seen at 1st.

October 27, 2012 9:52 AM
_______________________________

FWIW, Moore had a -0.1 at 1st Base UZR but like you said, limited work but again nobody handles the throws from Zim like LaRoche.

Theophilus T. S. said...

Gold Gloves tend to go to guys w/ good sticks. Votto, much as I dislike Cincinnati, is very good w/ the glove but, I agree, the time off hurt his case.

Gonat said...

fast eddie said...
NatsFanJim:
Totally agree that ALR will get a 5-yr. deal from SOMEBODY:
1) His kids are young enough to handle one last re-location
2) He'll be financially secure for a lifetime
3) At 37, he can watch his kids play high school ball and hunt full-time, OR go DH in the Al

October 27, 2012 9:50 AM
_________________________________

I don't know about 5 year deals. Maybe from some AL teams but I think the team will be important to him.

Teams that won't want him are: NYY, LAD, Angels, Phil, Reds, Atl, Det, CHW, StL, AZ, SF. Teams that will say they want him but won't pay him: Baltimore. Teams that can get him: Texas, Mets, CHC, Bos,

Boston may want him and remember, he played there a short time and it didn't go well, will he want to go back? Mets have Ike Davis and Chicago has Anthony Rizzo and while LaRoche is a big upgrade for them, I don't see them as NL teams going after him.

Texas looks like the only team that would do 5 years for LaRoche but they have Michael Young for 1 more year, Mitch Moreland for several years and still may retain Napoli who plays Catcher and 1st and is a Free Agent and Texas biggest need is a Centerfielder.

Anyone think differently?

natsfan1a said...

Just noticed that there's an Arizona Fall League media guide online (PDF file). Kinda cool they did that. Wish that the MLB teams would as well.

Was hoping to find info about broadcasts of the Nov. 3 Rising Stars game and the Nov. 17 championship game, both of which MLB Network has televised in the past, if memory serves.

natsfan1a said...

They also have game notes (I'm the type of dork who likes to read those for my Nats as well).

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

Gonat, on the LaRoche list I'm thinking Boston and Texas and Washington and Boston needs pitching and Texas needs a CF. Priorities and cash.

mick said...

I really believe and history would bare this out that winning teams keep 95% plus of their squad intact. I hope Nats keep this same team and add a starter and one closer, let these boys play together for a few seasons. Braves kept the same team for 10 years.

mick said...

as far as the impending storm goes, I have plenty of brew, lol

Gonat said...

Trivia, Adam LaRoche was once traded for Michael Gonzalez between Atlanta and Pittsburgh.

After the trade the Braves went with Scott Thorman. Who? How did that work out for the Barves.

The strange thing about Adam LaRoche is he has never earned true respect until he came here. I don't get it but it probably has to do with his demeanor and the fact he has never been an All Star or grabbed any awards.

I'm also wondering if the other cities will be scared off by his age as he will be 33 1/2 in April 2013.

Gonat said...

mick said...
I really believe and history would bare this out that winning teams keep 95% plus of their squad intact. I hope Nats keep this same team and add a starter and one closer, let these boys play together for a few seasons. Braves kept the same team for 10 years.

October 27, 2012 10:48 AM
____________________________________

Your math is way off as 95% retention is a change of only 1 player.

I would think most good teams turnover about 4 players from the Aug 31st (prior to Sept callups) to the beginning of the next season that's 86% retention.

Most good teams DFA players from their Opening Day rosters. Think Lidge, Ankiel, and Nady and the constant DL for DeRosa and HenRod.

NatsLady said...

My feeling on Morse is not "hate." But if the Nats don't re-sign LaRoche then I hope Morse hires a good coach and spends the winter learning the position (well, after his honeymoon). LaRoche was not always a good fielder, neither was Votto. Never mind endorsements, just focus on staying healthy and learning first base. He is already at a little disadvantage being right-handed but that can be overcome. If I recall he was pretty good at stretching for and picking balls. So go from there.

NatsLady said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
baseballswami said...

Lots of players who were considered mainly offensive threats have improved their defense.There were players in 2012 who were AL DH's that moved back to the NL and re-learned their defensive skills. It really bothers me when players are trashed for their defense when they have been asked to make a major change well into their careers - not left field to centerfield, but infield to outfield. Morse was an infielder, so is Lombo, so is Tyler Moore. You can't judge them the same way and you just have to give them more time to adapt. And I don't mean one spring training or one season. They spent years learning their positions. I hate to see any player labeled and written off. Today I just want to say that I am sick of the off season already - two weeks and I am done.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

Mick, where did you come up with your fuzzy math? 95%?

NatsLady, I just think you have a love/hate relationship with some of these guys. I went thru that with Nyjer.

Gonat said...

baseballswami, in 2008 this team had to be almost entirely rebuilt. From 2011 to 2012 there were only a few spots. From 2012 to 2013, only a few spots need to be improved.

Its the evolution of building a perrenial winner and you are correct that players like Morse, Moore and Lombo have done their best to adapt to new positions.

baseballswami said...

I know they say the right things to the media, but it really does seem that the players want to be a part of this group and do whatever they have to do to be a part of it, and not only because they are winning. They seem to want to be a part of this organization, play for rizzo and davey and each other. I see that in the Giants right now - the energy and the chemistry , as well as good starting pitching, sparkling defense and timely hitting - sound like any team we know? It's a good model. The one thing the giants are doing now that I would like to see more of in the Nats is this -- when the long ball is not coming and the game is getting toward the late innings, don't be afraid to use outs to manufacture precious runs. Make some kind of contact and keep fighting off. The Giants scored what in essence was the winning run on a double play and the second run on a sac fly. They say baseball is a game of adjustments and there are times where you have to go off of your regular script.

NatsLady said...

I wondered about (championship) teams keeping the same players. Compare Rangers.

2011 Texas Rangers WS Roster
RH Pitchers (6) - Mike Adams, Scott Feldman, Neftali Feliz, Colby Lewis, Mark Lowe, Alexi Ogando
LH Pitchers (5) - Michael Gonzalez, Matt Harrison, Derek Holland, Darren Oliver, C.J. Wilson
Catchers (3) - Mike Napoli, Yorvit Torrealba, Matt Treanor
Infielders (6) - Elvis Andrus, Adrian Beltre, Esteban German, Ian Kinsler, Mitch Moreland, Michael Young
Outfielders (5) - Endy Chavez, Nelson Cruz, Craig Gentry, Josh Hamilton, David Murphy

Rangers 2012 Opening Day Roster
RH Pitchers (9) - Mike Adams, Yu Darvish, Scott Feldman, Neftali Feliz, Colby Lewis, Mark Lowe, Joe Nathan, Alexi Ogando, Koji Uehara
LH Pitchers (3) - Matt Harrison, Derek Holland, Robbie Ross
Catchers (2) - Mike Napoli, Yorvit Torrealba
Infielders (7) - Elvis Andrus, Adrian Beltre, Alberto Gonzalez, Ian Kinsler, Mitch Moreland, Brandon Snyder, Michael Young
Outfielders (4) - Nelson Cruz, Craig Gentry, Josh Hamilton, David Murphy

NatsFanJim said...

Through a glass darkly, I imagine being stuck in the house with NatsLady, all decked out in her Nats Red garb. I imagine her meanderings about this and that and that and this -- all non-sensical baseball philosophic non-sequitors conjured up by a non baseball person who thinks otherwise.

I awaken from this phantasmagorical daydream and realize NatsLady is not here. Phew !!! Bring on the Storm -- I can take on anything now!

natsfan1a said...

Sure would be handy to have an "ignore" button on here.

Gonat said...

NatsLady, I see why Texas didn't get back to the WS. The loss of Endy Chavez. Hah!

Section 222 said...

ehay made a good suggestion about Mark's in-game posts last night. It's a long way to next season, but i thought i'd second his suggestion and add to it. If it's not too much trouble Mark, why not put your ingame updates both in the body of the post, and in the comments section? That way people who are refreshing and participating in the comments as they watch the game will see your posts show up there, and folks who check in occasionally to see your update posts but aren't reading comments (I confess I did this quite a bit this year), will see them altogether at the top.

I'm sure you realize it, but just let me reiterate just how valuable, informative, and entertaining your game posts are. I'm looking forward to revisiting them when I start rewatching the condensed games shortly after the World Series ends. Thank you.

Section 222 said...

NatsFanJim, I didn't think it was possible for you to demonstrate any better how much of a jerk you are, but you did it. Sexist rants are not welcome here. There are plenty of places on the 'net where they are. Please find one and hang out with your own kind.

MicheleS said...

So I see our resident chauvinist is back. NatsFanJim. Take your sexist/agist comments elsewhere. And If you ACTUALLY read what I posted, Jeff Daniels is the one with the Fister crush, not me. Having personally met both 1A and NatsLady, I can attest to how lovely they both are. Now if you don't like Nats cheerleaders, don't respond or comment on any of us.

Gonat said...

Section222/MicheleS, Jimbo can't handle intelligent females.

NatsLady and MicheleS are always showing their baseball knowledge! While I don't always agree with NatsLady's admiration for Wang and EJax, she has a right to her opinion.

NatsLady said...

mick was the person who brought up the question of how many players return on championship teams. I think that is an interesting question.

The Giants have an issue with Panda. Is he a fit for them next year? OTOH he is a tremendous fan favorite and they are COINING money on the panda gear. So Bochy has already come out with comments on Panda's winter conditioning regime (they are leaving him alone for the moment). In other words, they will keep him, but try to "improve" him.

I have no problem with that approach with Morse. Certainly Morse is cheaper next year than LaRoche, and that is a consideration if the priority is a starting pitcher.

Kenz aFan said...

I'm amazed that it only took two or three extra years for beat writers to start asking questions and/or bringing up the subject of how injury prone Ryan Zimmerman is.

When I brought up the subject a couple years ago, I was told to shut the hell up and get real.

Isn't it amazing how times change...

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

Kenz aFan, read my comments here in March 2011 on Zims abdominal injury. I was lambasted by some. I wasnt wrong either, it was just tough for people to hear what I had to say. He took his end of 2010 injury forward instead if fessing up like Markakis did and having the surgery.

Gonat said...

Ghost Of Steve M. said...
Kenz aFan, read my comments here in March 2011 on Zims abdominal injury. I was lambasted by some. I wasnt wrong either, it was just tough for people to hear what I had to say. He took his end of 2010 injury forward instead if fessing up like Markakis did and having the surgery.

October 27, 2012 1:36 PM
_________________________________

http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2012-01-06/orioles-nick-markakis-sidelined-after-abdominal-surgery

Not sure how similar their injuries were between Markakis and Zimmerman, but I do agree that the abdominal injury that ended RZim's 2010 season could have been the same injury he started 2011 with.

NatsLady said...

You might be interesting in a book specifically about third basemen and why they are under-represented in the Hall-of-Fame.

It's called "Third Base: The Crossroads" and argues that third base is a transient, hybrid position. I haven't finished the book, but here is the comment on RZ. (He's in the section "Great Bat, Good Glove.")

Ryan Zimmerman (99.9 percent, 2005-2010) Just like Wright, the reasons to love this kid are abundant. But also like Wright, he's won a Gold Glove that isn't backed up by advanced Fielding Metrics. And Zimmerman's great size (6'3" 230 lbs) is a red flag, as the track record of the biggest third basemen remaining healthy in their 30s isn't encouraging.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

Gonat, like I said before, only Zim knows what the deal is with his various injuries but I believe he hasn't been forthcoming as he could have been in the past with his injuries. Just my opinion.

NatsLady said...

sorry, interested. Here is the info about the book.

Third Base

http://www.amazon.com/Third-Base-The-Crossroads-ebook/dp/B00507FSP0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351360374&sr=8-1&keywords=third+base%3A++the+crossroads

NatsLady said...

No one seems to be "forthcoming" about their injuries. Remember how last year it was felt LaRoche wasn't, and he got blasted for it? Henry Rodriguez wasn't, Burnett wasn't, and on and on. That's why Werth kept such a sharp eye out, to the point where it seemed like he was a snitch...

baseballswami said...

Although I am sure that you feel that your comments about Zim were ignored - I don't get that impression at all. I feel that everyone is on his case constantly as though he chooses to get injured.Seems like the last couple of years everyone harps on it all the time , especially this year with the "move Zim to first" movement. Give the guy a break - we may have gone to the playoffs this year because he played through significant pain - he didn't miss all that many games this year and put off his surgery, took the shots - look at his stats - they are fantastic, even for an incomplete season. Check out some mlb stats. How many players play 162? Other players might have days off, he had his days all in a little group and the rest of the time he gutted it out.

Ghost Of Steve M. said...

NatsLady, LaRoche wasn't concealing his problem, he got seen by the Doctors who said he could play until he felt he could not.

Gonat said...

baseballswami, I don't remember who brought it up a few days ago that thought Zim could have had the AC Joint fixup once he knew he had the issue and wouldn't have missed much time if he disclosed the injury sooner, then again, we will never know. Hindsight thinking. It wasn't done and Zim after the cortisone shots were a key to the Nats success.

Theophilus T. S. said...

All positions are transition positions. Players recover from more injuries, play longer, get paid bigger money and therefore they often have to move on. M. Young moving from various IF positions to DH and 1B; C. Ripken from SS to 3B; Yogi Berra from C to LF. J. Bench from C to 3B. E. Martinez from 3B to DH. Players like Morse who's always been a square peg in a round hole, getting his major league career started by moving from IF to OF to 1B. If that's the thesis of the book, somebody's paying a lot of money for the obvious. Or, e-publishing proves the value of hardback publishers who actually screen their material.

Very rare player -- Jeter, Vizquel -- who can play one position for 20 years.

NatsJack in Florida said...

Just Say No to NatsFanJim.

Gonat said...

http://www.masnsports.com/school_of_roch/2012/10/figuring-out-which-free-agents-to-put-in-the-discard-pile.html

Roch Kubatko at MASN talking big and critical of Greinke:

"Forget Zack Greinke. The Orioles aren't going to offer any pitcher more than three years unless owner Peter Angelos and executive vice president Dan Duquette go against their shared philosophy. And Greinke, who has battled depression and an anxiety disorder, brings a certain amount of risk - though perhaps not as much for a smaller market team."

natsfan1a said...

Agreed, NJ. Activating the mental "ignore" button now. (I'll add that, imho, we gals don't need anyone to validate us, or not, on the basis of smarts, appearance, or any other criteria. We'll be just fine either way. :-))

Section 222 said...

Ghost, if you actually want people to read your 2011 comments, you should provide a link. I for one am sure not going to go search for them. I'll take your word for it that you said something extremely insightful then, but I really don't think you were the only one expressing serious concern about Zim's injuries at that point or any other point. After all, he missed a huge number of games in 2008 too.

As swami notes, Zim's physical condition has been one of the most discussed issues on this blog -- right up there with Danny's K's, H-Rod's potential or lack of command, Werth's contract, and whether Lannan is a good pitcher.

MicheleS said...

Gonat.. That quote from Roch seems overly critical. The comment about offering a pitcher more that 3 years is telling. Hello, it's because they are cheap!!! Good luck trying to find someone to come to BAL. Good grief, then commenting on the anxiety disorder is just low.

NatsLady said...

Theo, not a lot of money ($3.99) and I'm enjoying the profiles of players, which is as far as I've gotten. YMMV, of course.

NatsLady said...

Susan Slusser @susanslusser today became president of the Baseball Writers Association of America. First woman elected in history of BBWAA!

natsfan1a said...

She's on the A's beat, right? Good for her.

SonnyG10 said...

NatsFanJim, I do not like your rude sexist remarks regarding natsfan1a and NatsLady. I have sent an email to Mark Zukerman complaining about you. You are not funny, and in fact you are quite disgusting to me.

MicheleS said...

MLB Network is showing Highlights from Game 6 of the 2002 WS. I was at that game, until The Werth Walk Off that was the best game I had ever been to.

Mark Zuckerman said...

Sorry folks, I've been out all day and am only now catching up on things. NatsFanJim: Your inappropriate comments have been deleted. Please don't ever use that kind of sexist tone here again.

To everyone else: Thanks for your mature (and muted) response.

World Series Game 3 thread coming shortly...

Section 222 said...

Susan Slusser @susanslusser today became president of the Baseball Writers Association of America. First woman elected in history of BBWAA!

Take that NatsFanJim!!

SonnyG10 said...

Mark, I apologize for misspelling you name in my last post.

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