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| Photo by USA Today |
With three straight wins heading into Saturday’s matchup against the Colorado Rockies, the Nationals saw whatever momentum they had dissipate and quickly. As he has almost all season, starter Dan Haren immediately found trouble and left his team little chance at all in a 7-1 blowout.
Haren’s day was rough from the beginning with a solo home run by the Rockies’ second batter, D.J. LaMahieu. Three innings and five more earned runs later for the 32-year-old Haren and his day was done. He walked off the mound after recording just ten outs with many in the crowd of 35,787 letting him hear it with boos.
For a pitcher with Haren’s resume, it’s not often he’s heard this type of reaction from a home crowd. But given his outing and season overall – he’s now worst the majors with a 6.15 ERA - Haren feels it is deserved.
“No one wants to be booed. I'd probably boo myself, too,” Haren said. “I'm not doing well and the fans have a right to express how they feel. I wish I could perform better for them.”
Another unfortunate start for Haren and he’s now allowed 20 earned runs in his last 18 1/3 innings pitched. It is the worst stretch Haren can remember going through as a major league pitcher.
213 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 213 Newer› Newest»If I ececuted at work as effectively as Haren, I would not be booed, I would be canned.
Base GM's more patient than most employers.
Not enough competition I guess.
Chase wrote: Rockies starter Jhoulys Chacin was unhittable for much of the day, throwing seven scoreless innings with just five hits and a walk.
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How many times has this (or something similar) been written about opposing pitchers recently?
Well, maybe now we know why Ohlendorf has been silent since his last start....now he's on Haren's schedule...
Sooooo.....Manassass....you are saying release Haren? How about the bullpen, or Syracuse....or the DL with the old mystery oblique injury. whatever....he is killing us
Yes Haren seems to be a good guy, a hard worker, a stand up guy etc. But this is the big leagues and when you don't produce you get sent home. as I have said before, Haren has had a good, long career. Its time to call it a wrap
MNF--I'm sure if there were any attractive alternative Haren would have gone sooner. You will recall when he was shaky in April people figured he had until June. They he seemed to sort of improve in May. Now I think we are at the point where even unattractive alternatives are better than Haren.
Don't forget we went through Duke, Karns, and Maya. We have Ohlendorf, but who knew if he would be another Duke? He may yet be.
I have to laugh at people who look longingly at Chien-Ming Wang becuase he had two reasonable starts for the Jays (I don't consider his first start "reasonable.") Next to Henry, CMW was probably the most hated pitcher on this board when he was here...
Well.... I just got home from the game.... Just torture.... I'm going to get drunk....
Haren saddens my heart....
Mule knew in the middle of the 1st inning that the contest had already been decided (see post from about 12:20PM).
Since the 'pen does not seem to be a viable option (imagine today as a releif appearance, even in mop-up), Mule is recommending a trade to the Cubs.
He would fit right in with their team concept ("a race to the bottom") and join former team-mates Edwin Jackson and Henry Rodriguez.
We would receive another 6-plus ERA Single A pitcher (as we did for Henry); can't have too many of those, eh?
Next to Henry, CMW was probably the most hated pitcher on this board when he was here...
So true, NatsLady, so true.
And also now playing the role of Nyjer Morgan as the most hated CF here ... Denard Span.
I can't even discuss baseball right now logically.... I had this as a loss since Haren pitched but the hopeful Nats fan in me hoped I was wrong....
Just disgusted.... And I'm with MNF on the booing of players... I didnt boo him today but I'm not sure of anyone who has any patience left for Haren..... Just sad...
Yeah Bobby I don't get the Span hate but sometimes I forget you have to consider the source(s)....
He isn't the only not producing at the level... Most of the line up is....
I am just comparing stats on the field. I think that Span seems like a decent guy as does Haren, but what do I know? Both of them might let their lawns grow way too high while away on roadtrips and that just hurts everyone else's market values in the entire neighborhood.
The fact is that we were way, way oversold on this Span deal. For all those who remember the other former Nat outfielder names that I mentioned, I remember being told about the huge upside each of those guys was supposed to have when the Nats got them. All were mediocre but had success at times, which is basically the same as Span the last 4 plus seasons.
Boswell basically wrote off Span a month ago and that was when his opb was around .330. He said that this is who Span is. He is not a game changer. He is a nice player who is a very good fielder and an average offensive player at best. The Nats don't need help on the defensive end in the relative sense. Far from it.
This was a dopey trade that undercut Bryce's status as centerfielder and led to his being moved willy nilly back and forth across the outfield. No wonder he got confused and hit the wall. Span didn't save Harper or preserve Harper. He undercut his status as a star and made his job more difficult. This was a monumentally bad deal when we probably could have gotten Willingham for much less.
Brewers on the board first vs. Barves at Miller. Let's Go Brewers!
In a vague way, Haren reminds me of Ankiel. If it's true that his health isn't any worse than it's been in the past, it must be horrifying to watch your talent and skill disappear before your very eyes, with seemingly nothing you can do about it. Then you strike out five guys and you think maybe you have it back, and then it's snatched away again by forces you can neither understand or control.
It's not as if Haren is "old" in baseball years. In the second half of 2012 Haren was second only to Greinke in the Angels' rotation by WAR, and, in fact, had a slightly lower ERA in their last 13 starts.
The Nats don't need help on the defensive end in the relative sense. Far from it.
I have to respectfully disagree, WODL.
This team was built around pitching and defense. That's what got us to Game 5. Span was, and still is, a huge defensive upgrade in CF. If the rest of the team was hitting halfway to its potential, I think we would be looking at Span at what he is: a mediocre leadoff batter who brings a sterling glove every day.
But because we're scratching for runs every night, Span's offensive shortcomings are magnified.
I still think the Span acquisition will look good at the end of the season.
Now, about that Haren signing...
NatsLady, agree with you @5:11. It's sad. I feel bad for Haren...but I'm ready to find out for real if Ohlendorf is a mirage.
He can't be any worse than an almost certain loss...
You can bet every pitcher on this staff is very glad Span is out there, and they pitch better and with more confidence because of it. (Well, maybe except Haren.)
I think we have the Haren answer in house.....Stammen
Sunshine, agree with you on Span
Eric, I'm entirely willing to move on from Haren, that's fine. That's different from hating him, or thinking he's stealing money from the team or somehow defrauded Rizzo. Sometimes you find gems on the cheap, sometimes the investments that seem most worthwhile turn out to be duds. That's baseball--in fact, that's life. Luckily, there are divorce courts. ;)
ALR saying Haren is just unlucky is a joke. Serving up beach balls to major league hitters gets you the stats he has, not luck.
And WODL, I never saw Harper as a long term solution in CF, to e he layed there because he was the best option between him, Werth and Morse (or Moore once Werth was hurt)
I agree on the Haren\ Ankiel comparison. His body won't do what his mind tells it to do anymore. I am ok with Span-- we have seen this many times when a guy moves to a new league, especially with the running game where he doesn't know the pitchers yet. I have seen enough to know that he is worth letting it play out. I also feel that it is time to stretch Stammen out and try starting again. His whole style is different now, his body is mature, he gets it. On twitter there is lots of speculation about our favorite blog topic player playing SS in AAA as a trade showcase. I tend to feel that maybe they are hoping to boost his confidence and make him as comfortable as possible. He gets more ink than any of the other 39 guys on the roster added together. Quite the lightening rod.
Span is actually not an upgrade over Harper in center field at all. Harper had a higher defensive WAR than Span did last year while playing the outfield only a couple of years removed from being a catcher and has far better tools. Harper is a star. Span is not now, nor has he ever been a star, nor will he ever be one. He is the epitome of the okay player that you can find all over the league and who often have a couple of decent years and then fade away unable to duplicate them.
And no. The team was not built on defense. The team was built to maximize run differential. Defense does not in fact win championships at all. Nobody who studies the game believes that. What maximizes the ability of a team to win a title is scoring the maximum number of runs more than the opposition. There are a variety of ways to do this. And as Billy Beane said, none of it is guaranteed to work in the post-season. Just ask the Braves.
And beyond all that, please tell me why any team would have a guy leading off who gets on base at such a low average. Span's defense is still there the same way when he is batting 8th where he belongs, so what is all this refusal to admit that he is an offensive liability and a terrible lead-off man.
Span has 28 runs so far this year. 28! In his best year he scored 97 runs, which is pretty good, but still fewer than Harper scored last year in several games fewer. Once again Nats fans fall for the rose-colored glasses of believing that their guys is better than his stats, well just because.
Sports Illustrated recently argued that Joey Votto should be batting first, in a very well reasoned article. Maybe you bat Harper first, maybe you bat Rendon first or maybe you bat Werth first, or even Ryan Zimmerman first. Only someone who defies logic would bat Span first when he is apparently incapable of scoring any significant number of runs, hitting for a high average or power or getting on base at a competent rate for a lead-off man.
Hearing Span try to blame his issues on Eckstein is laughable and only diminishes his stature in many people's eyes. It is time for Span to either put up or shut up. Nobody cares what you did in Minnesota back in 2007 unless they are one of your relatives.
ALR saying Haren had bad luck isn't a joke. It's courtesy.
If Dan Haren is a good guy, I'm glad to hear it.
That said, the Nationals are 33-26 in the games Haren did not start.
Try someone else now -- please.
Let Ohlendorf go 5 with his mid-90s fastball. Find an injury for Haren. Bring up Rosenbaum as the second long man.
Please. Do. Something.
I like the Braves announcers. They are low-key, not excessive homers, and respectful of opponents.
NatsLady-- you noticing how much stealing us going on in some if these games?? LeCroy just threw two guys out in one game also. I feel like it's not a part of our game stealing or catching them.
NatsLady said...ALR saying Haren had bad luck isn't a joke. It's courtesy.
True, that. Last thing you want to do when a teammate is going bad is to rip him. Because someday, you're going to be that guy. And the last thing any clubhouse needs is a bunch of guys sniping angrily at each other.
But "bad luck" is when Daniel Cabrera swings blindly at your falling-off-the-cliff curve ball and accidentally loops it over the second baseman's head. That's not Haren's problem. His problem* is that his good stuff isn't good enough any more unless he has 100% pinpoint location. He had 95% pinpoint location today; the rest of the time, he was serving up big fat potatoes ready to be mashed.
* In my expert opinion...
I'm just saying ALR shouldn't have said anything. After all, if you can't say anything nice...
WODL, it's clear you don't like Span and he sure is underperforming, but if you build your staff on pitching and defense that can win championships. Nobody here has been complaining about his defense, he gets on base a little more and I'd bet the talk about him drops to a murmur. Unless, of course, morse starts hitting balls out like golf balls.
Nats Classic on from 06!!!!!!! Nick the Stick.and I cannot figure out who the voice is with Carp. Oh, my gosh, this team. Guillen. Marlon Anderson. This is crazy!
You really should tune in for a look. Looks like 1960 production values.
Not much to say about that wasted three hours at NatsPark, except that I really wanted them to show Davey's walk to the mound and hook of Haren as a Miller Hi-Lite. And yes, I booed. He deserved it.
Having now watched to Davey's presser, I'll be very surprised if Haren makes his next start.
One bright spot -- that nifty 4-3 double play. Rendon's got an arm as quick as his bat.
Tomorrow's another day, thank goodness. We'll have one of our four great pitchers on the mound. Things could be worse.
If someone can make the case that Span should be our lead-off hitter and that his doing so maximizes our run production, I am all ears. Short of his returning to his 2007 and 2008 form I cannot concoct a scenario where he should be getting the greatest number of at bats on our squad. Once again, this has zero to do with whether or not he plays in the outfield and thus should have zero to do with our defensive prowess.
Arguing that he should be batting 7th or 8th in the line-up hardly qualifies a person as a Span-hater, and at least preserves his glove in the outfield.
For people who actually care about the statistical analysis, what type of production do you feel a team in our place should be expecting from our lead-off hitter? Jayson Werth has had several seasons where he has averaged half a run a game or more and he seemed to do a great job leading off last year. However, he is not that much above Span this year. I think it has to be Rendon
Re: the color man with Carp on the 2006 broadcast:
I think that's Tom Paciorek or Ron Darling.
Didn't each do a stint before Don Sutton?
Olly for # 5 starter. It's all about the windmill!
Braves 3 outs away from being shutout again by the absolutely terrible Brewers.
BTW, I think that Denard Span is better than Marlon Anderson, so I am definitely not a Span hater. I just happen to think Nyjer was just as good and added a lot of discussion topics for Nats fans.
The Braves are not good at all. They started off 12-1 and if they lose this one, they are one under since that start. The NL East stinks this year. Who knows, maybe 84 games will be enough to win just like for the Cards back in 2006.
I miss upper deck homers.
David, and I'm loving it. Nats could've been 4 back if.......
Ohlendorf is just entertaining to watch. He pitches all goofy- and then in the interviews you realize that he is an Ivy League genius. He is a character and that is just fun.
Drew-- Maybe Paciorek? Seriously, though, how bad was masn back then ?
I wonder if John Paterson is interested in making a comeback....
Braves lose again.
Down go the Braves....
Lost 2-0, got three hits? Is losing Gattis to the DL having the same effect as losing Harper had on the Nats?
Haren pitched and we didn't lose any ground. At this point, that's the best we can hope for. Gaining ground would be a miracle.
The Braves haven't scored a run in 24 innings. Wow.
Braves are now 6 wins and 13 losses when Freddie Freeman is held hitless.
My best case scenario is that we gain maybe one game every week or so. That's all. Then very late in the season we do one of those Cardinals/Giants type steamroller deals where you get hot at exactly the right time.
What the Jays are doing is why it's important to stay around the .500 mark. They dug a huge hole for themselves and now look. If we had a run like that we would be 12 games above .500. Just keep grinding.
Especially in the surprisingly weak NL East, it's important that we stay no worse than we are now. I am shocked at the state of our division. If we were doing anything close to what we are capable of, the Barves would not be where they are now. I find myself wondering how this happened-- the NLEast used to be stronger.
Mets tied it up after being down 7-2. Is that sort of thing possible?
Well maybe not for us, but , well, Papelbon. I think that's three blown saves in four tries??
Are they in NY or Philly?
He vultured the win. I don't think it's supposed to work that way.
Shoot- looks like Philly won already?
They are in Philly. Frandsen pinch-hit home run. First batter in the bottom of the 9th against some reliever named Torres.
For those complaining about Span, the Braves starting outfield of BUpton, JUpton and Heyward collectively are a few points over Mendoza and they're in 1st.
Papelbon blew it on a Valdespin solo HR, and then Wright reached on a fielding error and Murphy singled him home. Papelbon must be livid, he already lectured the Fillies on "fundamentals."
Natslady
I think that Caray guy in Atlanta is one of the biggest homer out there.
In this Nats Classic, Jon Rauch has long hair, Josh Willingham and Miguel Cabrera are playing for the Marlins, and Zimmerman can throw overhand. Damn, that was a long time ago.
Some Barves fan posted this on their site. I laughed so hard I cried.
Well, let's make sure that we give credit where credit is due.
It's mighty hard to go up against Cy Donovan Hand Young just one night after going up against Cy Wily Peralta Young. Not to mention all the Young brothers from New York.
I hear tomorrow is its Cy Alfredo Figaro Young for the Brewers.
Totally unfair. Totally, totally unfair that a team has to face so many good pitchers in such a short period of time.
We really need to coordinate a sustained hot streak with one of these Braves sags. Seriously.
NatsLady, agreed again @5:29. I bear Haren no ill will.
How is this line up for those who want to move Span
Werth
Rendon
Harper
Desmond
LaRoche
Zimmerman
Span
Catcher
Pitcher
I think the lineup is fine until Harper return, ideally with Shark in left. I'll be very curious to see what Davey does with it upon Harper's return, though.
You guys have already forgotten 2005? The Nats lost a 5 1/2 game lead in about 3 weeks.
How about 1964? How about 1969? How about 1973? All of these years involved NL teams and huge movments in the standings in a month or under.
Obviously, no one wants to lose ground but anything under 14 games is doable inside of August.
I agree Manassas but when Ramos comes back, Span would dip down to 8th in the line-up.
Some people on here seem to think dropping him in the line-up would depress him however, and affect his fielding because anytime anyone mentions dropping him in the order, they immediately start harping on how great a fielder he is, as though one thing has anything to do with the other.
Of course, many of these people are the same ones who said Lombo was our long-term second basemen and that he just needed reps and that Moore just needed reps. No one seemed to think Espinosa just needed reps.
Question: Are the all red and all blue Nats caps no longer official? I still see Davey wearing an all red one, but it seems we are wearing the two-toned ones now.
How would suit those who want to move Span
Werth
Rendon
Harper
Desmond
ALR
Zim
Span
Catcher
Pitcher
F.P. says that he has the same engineering degree from Princeton as Olly--only he can't remember what it's called. Something to do with wind turbines and windmill delivery.
We need Olly as our 5th starter!
Must not be the game where he couldn't throw anyone out, and he made Frank cry. Ah, memories.
baseballswami said...
NatsLady-- you noticing how much stealing us going on in some if these games?? LeCroy just threw two guys out in one game also. I feel like it's not a part of our game stealing or catching them.
June 22, 2013 6:05 PM
And if it's '06, it must be Paciorek.
NatsJack in Florida said...
Dennard Span will lead off all season.
I agree. The team's got bigger problems. They stick with guys named Dan-ny too long.
So in this ancient classic on masn- did I see Hanley Ramirez, Miguel Cabrera, Josh Willingham for the Fish?? Joe Girardi is their manager. Good luck figuring out who the Nats are- mostly all finished in baseball.
The biggest thing the Nats have going for them is that they play over half (50) of their remaining games against the NL Least. They are still very much in it because the whole division has collapased this year.
Yep, they were all Fish. Girardi later got fired for going off on Loria, if memory serves. Well played, Joe. :-)
I only made line up for those who want to move him.
I just snt him get o. Base more.
Great career move.
Looks like someone filmed this on their cel phone.
Ryan-- so young!!
Manassas Nats' Fan said...I just snt him get o. Base more.
Uhmmm, yeah, okay...
Candide said...
Manassas Nats' Fan said...I just snt him get o. Base more.
Uhmmm, yeah, okay...
second that Candide, MNF, what's up dude??
"I just snt him get o. Base more." = "I just want him to get on base more" ?
Been to 8 games this year 3-2 at home 2-1 in Pittsburgh.
6 well pitched gsmes 2 poorky pitched ones by Gio.
Records for each starter's game.
Strasburg. 3-0
Zimmermann 1-0
Gio 1-2
Detwiler 0-1
Next two games Wednesday then the following monday.
Zim pitches Wednesday, and probably the following Monday.
I was smart..I decided not to game post after 3-0...besides the fact that Haren is an automatic loos who hurts team morale...the Nats only scoring 1 run today is a problem, the hot goalie excuse is old
Candide - Excellent deciphering. Work for the NSA, perchance?
mick, welcome back, haha, i spent the day at the pool after the 1st inning debacle...agree, as bad as haren is and has been, our offense is just way too inconsistent and for the most part, non-existent but thankfully the Barves stink too...we are real lucky we are in the NL east.
Ok- this classic is just too much fun. Dan Uggla in clothes thst fit!! Chief Chad in the pen!!!
ty paul...it was just too painful to game post today
frustrating as hell that Braves lost again...Haren, could you please just get the hell out of town??
I assume that part of that prediction is at least a partial return to form. If Span is leading off in September and has less than a .300 obp and ZERO homers, then the Nationals deserve to miss the play-offs for sheer stupidity and hardheadedness. I remember when I was a kid how pathetic it seemed for those few guys who actually went through an entire season with no homers. Felix Millan, anyone? Oh wait, he actually had 4 in 1973. Freddie Patek? Nope, he had more power than Span. Hmm, Altuve?
Walter Johnson had 24 homers and batted over .400 in 1925, but of course the current Nats administration would tell him to tone that down so he could hurry back to the dugout and rest his arm, something that simply infuriated me whenever the announcers made comments about Straburg being better off making an out in his first season.
Haran is trying to pitch cutters that wont cut. Mkes it a batting practice fast ball.
That has been a problen most of the season that is not being taken care of.
William O. Douglas Loeffler
showing your age dude, I love it...for that fact Tim Cullen hit more homers than Span
NatsLady @ 7:48 p.m.,
Great cut-and-paste from Braves blog. Similar doom-and-gloom in San Francisco, where one of the beat writers had to pull a Mark Zuckerman and plead with his Twitter followers/posters to tone it down and not get so vitriolic.
From an earlier exchange, I think you're probably right about the White Sox recognizing they're out of the running, but I don't think there's anyone on their staff who'd be both attractive and available.
You guys got me watching this old Nats game. I guess Nick Johnson finally retired. Guillen is gone. Vidro and Guzman are gone. Shockingly, one of these guys from the early Nats still plays for the Twins. Maybe John Patterson wants another shot? Could he be worse than Haren? That guy could throw and he is well rested....
Seriously-- seems like 20 years ago. Is this airing so that we appreciate what we have now? I mean, really- I think I blocked a lot of this out. We stranded 15 runners. Well- not everything changes.
Just wonderin' said...
Candide - Excellent deciphering. Work for the NSA, perchance?
LOL...
I took their aptitude test once upon a time a thousand years ago when I was in college. They called me in for an interview; guy told me I had done "damned well." They flew me down to Baltimore/Fort Meade for a couple of days of interviews, psychological tests, polygraphs. I didn't get hired. But went to an Orioles game with the guy I shared the hotel room with, so it wasn't a dead loss.
Have to admit, I do like working on puzzles. Though why the Nats continue to trot out Haren every 5th day is one I haven't cracked yet...
How old was Hanley then??? Looks like 16.
By the way, Mick, there are two interesting Nats and Senators radio broadcasts available on the internet.
One is from the early 40's and has Walter Johnson doing the play by play in a game that finished in just under 2 hours, I think, against the Indians. The other is a broadcast of the Washington/Rangers last game in DC where a riot basically broke out during the end of the game and they had to forfeit to the Yankees.
If it was any consolation, the Rangers were just dreadful day in and out when I was growing up. They had a version of a Strasburg and burned his arm out a few weeks after high school graduation.
They are better now but the curse of the Senators and their crooked 60's owner still follows them around. Somehow, I knew, even in their closest point to winning it all that the curse of the Senators would do the Rangers and their jerky owner in.
That is why I will always like the Cards, regardless, for beating the Rangers, Nolan Ryan, George Bush and whoever else and saving the world from a Texas Rangers championship.
Early twenties, maybe? That was his ROY season, 2006.
WODL- I think it's interesting to hear how a fans current baseball feelings were shaped over the years. I go back a while myself and have long lasting feelings about teams and players. Unfortunately for me, my least favorite player in baseball was our manager!!
I checked-- in 06, Hanley was 22!! Robert Fick on the bench. Remember him??
And since we are talking about the middle version of the Washington baseball franchise, another interesting fact, to me at least, is that the Senators and RFK were featured in an episode of a truly great 1960's show, Gomer Pyle, U.S.M.C. Sgt. Carter was a jerk and didn't want to see the Senators, however.
Another interesting fact: the Senators and the Orioles were the two geographically closest teams in baseball playing in the same league. I think now it is either the Cubs and Brewers, or the Dodgers and Padres, but it is highly unusual to have two teams playing not only in the same league within one market, but the Senators and O's actually played in the same division prior to 1971. The O's actually opposed the move of the team to Texas and voted against it, feeling that it would cost them serious money at the box office by losing one of their main rivals to be replaced by the Brewers, who have now changed leagues, and don't get me started on Selig's goal of destroying the integrity of the NL and forcing the DH on us.
Hope whoever posted about Span leading off the entire year is wrong. I love him in CF but think that Rendon/Harper as our 1/2 would be the way to go if-when Bryce is ready.
I am also ready for Haren to magically get injured but I think he might be mature enough to handle a move to long relief. I also think that 13 million would go a long way towards easing whatever pain he might suffer. Give me Ohlandorf for a couple starts to see where that takes us and then it might be back to the drawing board. This was certainly not one of Rizzo's better moves but I still think we can pick up 5 games in the next 89.
Go Nats!! - Win this Series!!
WODL- are you secretly Phil Wood?
Ted Williams, you mean? I was surprised that Eddie Yost never got the nod either here or in New York or Boston. He was a heady player and a college graduate. I don't know why he isn't honored more by our current team. I like Frank Howard, who was our Jim Gentile, but he is not Eddie Yost, at least not in my book.
Oops- Hanley just booted one!
Wonder if we will see Taylor Jordan sooner rather than later.... Not sure if this was discussed... I've been drowning my sorrows all afternoon/evening...
No, I grew up a Reds fan in North Carolina but my father was from Arlington, Virginia and I followed them and learned about them for him. He was surprised how poorly I took losing in game 5 last year, it only being a game and all, and I realized that Cat's in the Cradle is not always the last word in father-son relationships....
Just got home from a long day out with Friends.. Wow am I glad I wasn't at the game.. Tomorrow's a new game, Det's on the mount and as others have said.. Let's take the series...
Something is wrong with Haren, Did anyone suggest he might be tipping his pitches? Anything ????
If Spanhad an OBP like Eddie Yost everyone would love him.
You know, with Haren on the mound, early day game after a night game, Bernie, Lombo and Solano in the line up-- it almost felt like the throw away game of the series. I was kind of expecting it and steeled myself for it. At least it was evident early how it was going to go so you didn't have to emotionally invest.
The issue is that the goon squad over achieved last year... And the injuries we have sustained this year, we didnt have last year...
Just a cluster duck of a performance... But with the win tomorrow, we win the series and all will be better....
16-10 for the month of June... Wait... How many more starts does Haren have this month, I will have to alter that...
I love Span.... He isn't the only one under performing right now... But he got a hit or 2 today... But no one drove him in...
And of course Haren just decided to... Well.. Be Haren...
NatsJack...
Espi playing SS... do you think they are show casing him for possible trade? Saw that on twitter earlier
MrsB loves the Nats said...Wait... How many more starts does Haren have this month...
I hope the correct answer to that question is, "None."
Michele-- my theory is they are trying to boost his confidence and make him comfortable.
Kilgore and Wagner both think they're showcasing him for a possible trade, if he continues to play SS.
WOD - you just made my day! I have every Eddie Yost Card from his 1948 Bowman to his last year with the LA Angels! Never played one inning in the minors. In 1961 he held the major league record for most games played at 3rd base. I was crushed when I met him and found out he smoked but had to let that slide.
Graduated from NYU (as did my son!) and just a terrific guy for a youngster to root for. We were absolutely horrible during the 50s and 60s but they were my team and they still are today.
Go Nats!!
Espi is an awesome defender... If he can just get it together at the plate, he would be a gem...
Span has a chance to be like Eddie if Span can just lower his average a bit more. In 1956, Yost hit .236 for the year and that mark is well within Denard's sights.
Yost did happen to have a .412 on base percentage that season, so then again, never mind....
Candide- yeah 1 is too many in my book... Heard Ray Knight ripped Haren... Will have to watch the post game show...
But although Haren performed badly, it's not like we did anything at the plate... But a line up with Lombo, Solano and without Werth.... Yeah, seems like we kinda mailed this one in from the beginning....
Besides the fact that he was incredible at drawing walks, Yost also was a better than ave. fielder and could go deep on occasion. The last card I have on him has him with 139 HR's. His last 2 years with the Tigers, he hit 35 HR's
Actually in 56 he hit .231 but he played every single game that year. His career ave. was .254 but with the walks he had a very nice obp. He led the majors in walks 5 different years.
The two issue sinking this team are Haren and hitting. Haren is easy to fix but I am not sure there is an answer to hitting. These guys are clueless at the plate, the whole gang. Span should be fined for every time he hits the ball to the right of the infield. Lombo for very time he pops up.
Speaking of Span can someone tell me why he is batting leadoff? What makes him a leadoff hitter?
Yost played in 838 consecutive games from 49 thru 55. He led the league in putouts, assists, and double plays in 56 (for 3rd basemen).
Until Harper gets back, I think Span will continue to leadoff. Not sure why but Davey is just a tad stubborn. I would love to see a lineup with Rendon leading off and Harper 2nd.
Both Mickey Vernon and Eddie Yost passed away not too long ago. It is interesting because my father told me that Vernon was much better as a player and that seemed to be the perception but when I looked them up in Bill Jemes' Handbook, he seemed to have them pegged fairly evenly and that was my perception. James also noted that Griffith Stadium greatly curtailed Yost's power and he showed much more slugging percentage late in his career with the Angels and Tigers.
He and Gil Hodges left in 1968 and he won a Series and an NL title with the Mets and then went to the Red Sox, happily retiring the year before the 86 series which probably was tough on him in terms of rooting interest. I am not sure why he never managed--he seemed just good enough to be a good one, like Torre and Johnson, but not so great as to fall under the Ted Williams/Mattingly/Hornsby curse of being too talented to manage effectively.
I think I read that Yost actually could not go down to the minors due to a law passed during WWII guaranteeing servicemen their former jobs provided they didn't get killed in the war. He offered to do it but the commissioner didn't want to set a precedent of baseball challenging the regulation.
Mike Morse back on the DL.
Morse
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130622&content_id=51468516¬ebook_id=51480344&vkey=notebook_sea&c_id=sea
Here are the top 15 players in MLB history in walks. See if you notice anything about the other guys besides Yost:
1. Barry Bonds (22) 2558 L
2. Rickey Henderson+ (25) 2190 R
3. Babe Ruth+ (22) 2062 L
4. Ted Williams+ (19) 2021 L
5. Joe Morgan+ (22) 1865 L
6. Carl Yastrzemski+ (23) 1845 L
7. Jim Thome (22) 1747 L
8. Mickey Mantle+ (18) 1733 B
9. Mel Ott+ (22) 1708 L
10. Frank Thomas (19) 1667 R
11. Eddie Yost (18) 1614 R
12. Darrell Evans (21) 1605 L
13. Stan Musial+ (22) 1599 L
14. Pete Rose (24) 1566 B
15. Harmon Killebrew+ (22)
According to Bill James, all of the other 14 should be in the Hall of Fame based upon their gameplay, with Evans being borderline, like Tony Perez and Ron Santo.
I just finished a book about Dom Dimaggio and he was a similar player to Yost, perhaps a bit more talented, but also very heady and he ended up being the most successful of all his brothers, arguably anyway. All 3 Dimaggio brothers had incredible range in center field and rank among the 15 or 20 best of all time, with Dom right near the top. Dom finished with close to .400 obp and was a runs leader year in and out like Yost. He lacked Joe and Vince's power, however.
It is all that cold, wet weather in Seatlle, plus Morse needs to platoon, like Hank Bauer and Moose Slowron. Big guys can only take so much gyrating.....
Ha - NL, I was just reading that....
WODL - as much as I idolized Eddie Yost, I have to agree with your dad. As I watched those teams, Vernon was our go to player. Hit 3rd or 4th almost all the time, was very smooth around 1st base and had decent power. He was an all-star 7 different times where as I think Yost might have made it once if at all. Like I mentioned earlier, we were god-awful but I loved every minute of my time at Griffith Stadium.
SJM.. are you going to the game tomorrow?
Dom DiMaggio's old buddy Bobby Doerr is still alive (he turned 95 earlier this year) and living about 20 miles north of Eugene. He was scheduled to throw out the first pitch at a 'Bobby Doerr Classic' game today in Junction City, OR. He traveled to Boston last year -- I think it was -- for Fenway's 100th birthday party.
Morse needs to platoon? Are you Jim Riggleman?
I am Casey Stengal. The Yankees could afford Elston Howard and Yogi Berra. As Carl on the Simpsons once said, "not too shabby."
Talking about reminiscing. Does anyone remember in 2005 when Carpenter, I think, gave out his cell number on MASN during a late west coast game and asked if anyone in the DC area was watching to please call in? This was when basically only Directv had MASN, as recall.
I actually was watching but couldn't lift myself off the couch. I think Carpenter might have been alluding to a line from the movie Major League. 2005 and 2012 were great seasons.
They mentioned Doerr a lot in the book, which was about all 3 brothers but mostly focused on Dom and Vince for obvious reasons. Vince played for years in the Pacific Coast League after leaving the majors, lamentably, one year before they instituted a pension plan. The PCL played very high level ball, maybe AAA+ from what I gather.
222, well, they were platooning Morse before he went on the DL, so it's not that weird.
WODL.. that wasn't Carp that gave out his Cell number.. Carp came in 2006, I have blocked out 2005 broadcasters name
Anyone read this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Whole-New-Ballgame-Washington-Senators/dp/1929763387/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1371950398&sr=8-4&keywords=WASHINGTON+SENATORS
It looks like something Mick might like.
Rendon has a similar kind of a smile. I think it must be important to have people in the mix who stay level and happy to counteract the anger and frustration.
Michele-- I seem to remember that most of our games were not televised in that first year. Some DC50, I think, but otherwise there was no tv coverage.
Spring training news... can't post hyperlink.. too tired
http://www.aroundosceola.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=14296%3Acounty-committed-to-building-baseball-complex-for-two-major-league-teams-&catid=27&Itemid=138
Haren came here off a career worst 2012 season and a poor spring training. This shouldn't surprise anyone. Rizzo took the project on and it backfired. Haren is simply continuing the regression that began last year. I am so glad that we don't have people saying "In Rizzo we trust" this year and giving him a pass for everything.
People with Directv were getting all the Nats' games from the very beginning. I guess they had more bandwidth back then or something than the cable operators, but some of it probably had to do with the Comcast/MASN rivalry.
It worked out great for DC and the area because we now get double the amount of televised ball, but also Comcast lost their local sports monopoly with their All Redskins All the Time programming approach where they pre-empt national Fox Sports Net ACC basketball games with impunity so they can run their 4 hour Redskins post-game show.
"Haren came here off a career worst 2012 season and a poor spring training. This shouldn't surprise anyone. Rizzo took the project on and it backfired."
Rizzo has made a series of poor choices and its how he snowballs his poor choices as you saw in a series of 3 contracts with Chien Wang, 2 1/2 years of Henry, 2 1/2 years of Espinosa, Stairs, Lidge, Haren, and Im sure Im missing some names.
NL, it's very weird. You may remember that Riggleman had the idea that Morse couldn't hit RH pitching when all his numbers showed he could. He also thought he was probably better coming off the bench than playing every day. Both were bunk, as Morse showed both in 2011 and 2012.
I haven't been following his progress religiously since he left, though I know he's had some injury problems after a hot start. I'm not in the camp that continues to say we should have kept him, but the idea that he's not good enough against righties to play every day is ridiculous.
James Wagner @JamesWagnerWP
Agreed. MT @AdamKilgoreWP Interesting to see Espinosa at short in AAA. Speculation: If becomes regular thing, reads like showcase for trade.
_________________________
You have to ponder what you get for a .150 shortstop.
Kilgore and Wagner can speculate all they want. Until Espi shows he can hit his trade value is worth about what the Nats got for Henry Rodriguez which was the human equivalent of the case of baseballs.
WODL, it was all about the Comcast/MASN dispute during the first two years of the Nats. Comcast refused to carry MASN because it's subsidiary wanted to continue to broadcast Orioles games. Or something like that. I remember switching to DirectTV before the 2007 season in order to watch the games, but MASN and Comcast settled their dispute and Comcast agreed to carry MASN.
Yes, Espinosa at SS which moved Zach Walters to 3rd base which is something I mentioned could help his situation given that he's not a slick fielding SS. I think that's a good move by Rizzo to try it out.
Zach Walters hit 2 more HRs today to give him 18 on the season.
John Lannan faces off against Matt Harvey tomorrow. Lucky guy!
Sounds like they are grooming Espinosa to be the backup SS if he ever makes it back to the show.
It does make sense to play Espinosa at what was his "regular" position. His struggles are with his offense and if he figures that out, he will be more valuable to us or anyone else as a utility guy. The people clamoring for him to be kept up used the fact that we had no sub for Desmond as their main reason. Seems to me he will fill that role just fine IF, he figures out how to hit the damn ball.
MicheleS - no game for me until the 26th. I have not used RedCarpet yet as most computer tasks drive me nuts. I really do not like the new system. (or Haren).
Go Nats!!
Rainy morning. Have to work. Hope by the time the game starts it will be sunny and the guys will be recovered from last night. Surely their putting on tuxes and being trotted out to the public in support of their community will earn them some good karma.
For those going to meet up at Sec. 312 before the game today, I expect to be there. I will be wearing a red shirt (like that would help) but it has my name on it (that should definitely help).
Look forward to meeting some other NI'ers.
ArVAFan
Mel Proctor was the first MASN play-by-play guy.
Not looking good, weatherwise, but will look for folks in 312 before the game should it be a "go."
MicheleS said...
WODL.. that wasn't Carp that gave out his Cell number.. Carp came in 2006, I have blocked out 2005 broadcasters name
June 22, 2013 11:05 PM
Will also have a red tee, with white curly W and gray inset sleeves. Off-white cap with red curly W. RFK exploding fireworks pin. Shorts. Speaking of short, I'm 5'3".
I will be wearing a red shirt (like that would help) but it has my name on it (that should definitely help).
Can we assume your shirt says "ArVAFan"?
Or does it say "c715e5d6-9d22-11e1-a89a-000f20980440." In which case, hope you don't mind if we call you C715 for short.
I'll be in solid red cap with white curly W, red Nats RZimm jersey, blue-grey shorts. 5' 8", mustache. Cunegonde - 5' 1", white hair, red Strasburg jersey, and her blue Rice university cap in honor of Anthony Rendon (has a white Gothic "R" on it).
#EatFace!
The Nats are now 4-11 in games Dan Haren has started and 0-8 in his last 8 starts.
The Nats are 5-3 in Strasburg's last 8 starts.
Just think if Haren's spot in the rotation was 5-3 instead of 0-8, that's right, the Nats would be tied for 1st place right now. Think about it.
For the Lannan haters, the Phillies are 3-1 in Lannan starts this year. For the Marquis haters, the Padres are 11-4 in his starts this year.
And for the Span haters, BJ Upton of the Braves is hitting a robust .178 with only 18 runs scored and 6 SB's. If I recall, there was a lot of posters on here that wanted to bring him here. Wonder how the Braves like that deal? That surly attitude with a .178 average. I'll bet he's pleasant to be around in the locker room
Okay, see y'all there. Heading out soon as we have kitty duty this morning.
Big Cat, how's about 450 K's as a prediction for those Atlanta outfielders.
William O. Douglas Loeffler
love your post, brings back so many memories...I had on cassette tape the Senators last game verse Yankees in 1971 up until 10 years ago and now we can not find it. I taped it as a young lad from my transistor radio on the evening
I am like you, I followed the Rangers through about 1975. I got mad when the fired Billy Martin who was AL manager of the year in 1974...in 1974 they were damn good, finished 5 games out in the West behind the defending champion A's...Fergie Jenkins won 26 games. Jeff Bouroughs was AL MVP, Toby Harah, Tom Grieve, Len Randle all ex Senators and Dave Nelson became good players.
David Clyde was the young pitcher that Rangers burned out. Bob (may he bun in hell) Short forced Whitey Herzog to play him at age 18 in 1973. Yes, the Rangers had Herzog as manager before Billy Martin. After Clyde's debut, in which he went about 7 innings and gave up only a run and won...Short called Herzog "the best damn manager in baseball...3 months later he fired him
I remember the Senators had Gil Hodges as manager one year 1966?...how the hell did they let him go?
Ghost....its possible. They are over 200 right now.
both Jenkins and Jim Bibby were BEAST pitchers, they went 9 innings almost every game they pitched and in fact Jenkins pitched few 10 inning games that season
new day, new game.
"Just think if Haren's spot in the rotation was 5-3 instead of 0-8, that's right, the Nats would be tied for 1st place right now. Think about it."
Just think. I thought. Im sickened now.
I was in a good mood until the name Haren resurfaced...good point Nats 128... it is sickening, this should be a no brainer, Ohlendorf really needs to be the 5th pitcher... In all seriousness, Haren is the Nats Albert Haynesworth
Moving Danny to short shows his career here is at an end. Not like he is going to beat Desi for a job. Perhaps you try to turn him into a super sub but his biggest value now probably lies in a trade.
mick said...In all seriousness, Haren is the Nats Albert Haynesworth
Are you serious?
From the wikipedia entry on Haynesworth:
An unrestricted free agent in the 2009 offseason, Haynesworth signed a seven-year, $100 million contract with the Washington Redskins
Versus a 1-year contract for Haren.
From the beginning of his time with the Redskins, Haynesworth presented problems for the coaching staff. He refused to participate in off-season workouts, and arrived at camp in poor physical condition, unable to pass a basic fitness test.[24] He also made it clear that he did not like his place in the team's defensive scheme.[25] After a 45–12 loss to the New York Giants on Monday Night in 2009, Haynesworth questioned the scheme of defensive coordinator Greg Blache, and stated that he could not "survive another season in this system if it stays the way it is."[26]
Say what you want about Haren, but he hasn't complained about his place on the pitching staff, and he hasn't blamed the team for his ineffectiveness. In fact, you'll search high and low and in between for a scrap of evidence that he blames anyone but himself.
Albert Haynesworth was a lazy selfish player who was a major disruptive force off the field instead on the field.
Haren appears to be a good teammate however they have no confidence in him. It was time to move on weeks ago and thats on Rizzo. I dont know what team he is watching.
0-8 in his last 8 starts. Didnt take a genius to have seen how this story was going to read.
Big Cat, I assume you're talking about all three of the Braves outfielders? It's not just the Upton's strikeouts, they have each played the Braves out of games with their defense, too. There were a lot of folks here that wanted Rizzo to go after BJ and his 5 tools. Thank you very much, but I'll take Span, warts and all.
Speaking of the outfield, after this week. is there any doubt in anybody's mind that Steve Lombardozzi shouldn't be playing left field? I really thought that the Nats had moved past playing barely serviceable players in the outfield. That was a big part of the justification of trading Michael Morse. Look, I like Lombo, but he doesn't even have a strong enough arm to play third base, much less the outfield. Unfortunately, Corey Brown has disintegrated offensively in Syracuse, but we really can't afford to keep playing no-hit, no-arm, utility infielders out there.Now, I've noticed Perez hasn't been in the line up for the Chiefs the past couple of games. Anybody know what's up with that?
I was under the impression that several position players were under-performing in 2013 vs. their career averages. This does not appear to be the case, except for Span and Suzuki. Below are the differences in 2013 and career: BA OBP OPS
Span (26) (42) (81)
Desmond +8 +3 +60
Zimmerman (18) (8) (21)
Werth (11) (48) (95)
Laroche (16) (4) (56)
Suzuki (37) (28) (92)
"There's no doubt he's on fire now but he's had similar streaks, just not with this much power, before. He needs to show better plate discipline and improve his overall OBP and he REALLY needs to show improvement defensively."
Zach Walters leads AAA shortstops in errors with 19 this season and on pace to make over 40 errors. Arizona knew that he stunk with the glove however they were smart enough to play him at 2nd where he played well.
How long before Rizzo figures this out.
Fast Eddie, good chart. I would think Werth is mostly age regression.
Once again a poor analogy trumped by actual facts. Thanks to Candide & 128 for that.
Mick and others had Haren on drugs and now compared to Haynesworth when actually all he has done is pitch very poorly. Hate to see how things happen in real life around that household when someone breaks a glass or dents a car.
Haren is turning into a Rizzo mistake but he didn't sign BJ Upton for 57 million dollars and multiple years, he didn't sign E. Jackson for 58 million and multiple years. Haren will be gone next year and Rizzo will try again but this season is not over. I am not saying we will need Haren on this race to the pennant but stranger things have happened.
Go Nats!!
Candide said...
mick said...In all seriousness, Haren is the Nats Albert Haynesworth
Are you serious?
I am very serious and in terms of the monies and what his role was with the team YES... I think Haren's preparation was lazy in Spring training and before games, I think he is stealing his paycheck
SJM, I apologized for the drug remark yesterday...maybe you did not see it or chose to ignore it..(bet its the latter , no doubt)
But, I am sure as HELL not sorry for my Haynesworth comparison...bad move period and costly in terms of money and the team's performance
If you want to demonize me go for it
Nats 128 said...
Zach Walters leads AAA shortstops in errors with 19 this season and on pace to make over 40 errors. Arizona knew that he stunk with the glove however they were smart enough to play him at 2nd where he played well.
How long before Rizzo figures this out.
That .285 OBP coupled with his poor fielding with the fact he will be 24 in September isn't a great combination for future success.
Playing Walters at shortstop is a waste of the team's time and yes, it surprised me that they stuck with him so long this year at SS but you are correct, his best fielding percentage is when he played 2nd for the Diamondbacks Single-A affiliate.
Great post sjm308. A one year deal for Haren isn't the end of the world.
Looking at Perez' stats in Syracuse, one glaring thing stands out: 224 at bats, 5 walks.
.304 average, or not, that is just awful.
By all accounts Haren is a good guy. I would bet as he s getting roasted on the mound his teammates are hurting with him.
sjm308 said...Once again a poor analogy trumped by actual facts.
Says it all. Thanks.
But then...
I am not saying we will need Haren on this race to the pennant but stranger things have happened.
People keep saying that. Yes stranger things have happened. But that's not where the smart money bets.
Gotta get back to kicking Cunegonde's butt (figuratively, not literally) so we can be outta the house by 11:00. Gotta get one of those choice parking spots near the concrete plant, and we need TWO Bryce bobbleheads because Cunegonde agreed to swap hers with Faraz for the Davey one he swore he's going to get.
mick, comparing Haren to Fat Albert is silly, in my opinion. Nobody has claimed that Dan Haren is lazy, or a bad teammate. He's a good guy that's getting rocked and is quite possibly finished. He also was only given a one year contract. It's not working out, but you have that sometimes. Every GM in baseball have bigger albatrosses around their necks than Rizzo has with Haren.
Laddie:
Enjoyed your offer to take "only" $5m. to replace Haren. I'd pay to watch you bounce a few pitches halfway to the plate. (What's the MLB record for most WPs in one inning??)
sjm308, while I agree about the bad long-term contracts other teams agreed to the Nats still can't get a pass on Haren. With Haren's age and his back issues and overall regression in 2012, it made for a High Risk signing in comparison to other alternatives that Rizzo had at the time.
In-season decisions are just as important as has been shown with Henry, Danny and Dan. Rizzo has waited much too long in each situation.
Haren has been an inconsistent mess all season but 4 poor starts in a row can't be risked to turn into 5.
On the other hand, there is a humorous part of me which would like to see Davey double down and continue to pitch this clown every 5th day for the rest of the season. If I knew for sure he would, I would place bets with Vegas that Haren would top McClain's 22 losses of 1971 and top Bert Blyleven's 50 gopher balls.
A vital concept of any team sport is to pick your team mates up when they do not perform now and then...you have each others back.
The 3 games the Nats won in a row, every player had each others back.. Haren's turn comes up to pitch and he lets the entire team down, again. The morale of the team has to go down when your down 3-0 out of the gate. Davey needs to factor that in the rest of the way.
I understand pitching Haren yesterday to see if he can do his job. He not only failed to do his job, he clearly is not a guy you want to have your back, that is what is demoralizing about yesterday.
I do not feel sorry for Haren, only the players who lay if out there every day that have to take the field with him.
Ghost, Haren was put through a battery of tests and was proclaimed to be healthy. He has lost some velocity from his prime, but even that doesn't seem to be his major fault. He just isn't able to locate his pitches consistently like he has been able to his whole career. He can't keep the ball down.His starts on May 2 (Braves),14 (Dodgers)& 30th ( Orioles) were all examples of what Rizzo was expecting of him when he was signed, and were all games that he pitched well enough that he deserved to win.
All you Ejac bashers in here, he did what a 5th starter was suppose to do, he was 500, 10-10 I believe. Haren has already lost more games now than Ejac did all in 2012. Granted, I am glad Ejac is gone as I am a huge Lannan fan and felt John should have been the guy, but I would take Ejac over Haren any day
2013 Edwin Jackson is 3-9 with a 5.49 era. And the Cubs are stuck with him foe seemingly an eternity. No thanks.
"I am glad Ejac is gone"
I believe I stated that Joe
Joe, it comes down to consistency which has been lacking in the Haren starts. Haren has had some good starts, just not enough of them.
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