Tuesday, September 13, 2011

Game 146: Nats at Mets

File photo by Mark Zuckerman / NATS INSIDER
Chien-Ming Wang faces Dillon Gee tonight at Citi Field.
It's no secret what Chien-Ming Wang's biggest bugaboo has been this season: The first inning. For whatever reason, the right-hander hasn't been able to consistently navigate his way through that opening frame without suffering some kind of damage. Wang's ERA in the first inning in eight starts: 12.38. His ERA in every other inning: 2.70!

So the difference in tonight's game might very well come in the first 15 minutes, as Wang attempts to set down the top of the Mets lineup without putting his team in a hole. If he can do that, he and the Nationals should be in business.

Rookie right-hander Dillon Gee is on the mound for New York, in search of his 13th win (that's four more than anyone on the Nats staff currently has).

As you know, I'm not in New York for this series. Enjoy the game and the conversation...

NATIONALS at METS
Where: Citi Field
Gametime: 7:10 p.m.
TV: MASN
Radio: WJFK (106.7 FM), WFED (1500 AM), XM 183
Weather: Clear, 77 degrees, Wind 10 mph out to CF
STARTING LINEUPS
NATIONALS (68-77)
SS Ian Desmond
CF Rick Ankiel
3B Ryan Zimmerman
LF Michael Morse
RF Jayson Werth
2B Danny Espinosa
1B Chris Marrero
C Wilson Ramos
P Chien-Ming Wang

METS (71-76)
SS Jose Reyes
2B Ruben Tejada
RF Lucas Duda
3B David Wright
CF Angel Pagan
LF Willie Harris
1B Nick Evans
C Josh Thole
P Dillon Gee

286 comments:

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Bowdenball said...

"His ERA in every other inning: 2.70!"

In at least two of those eight starts he allowed a ton of "unearned runs" in later innings.

Also, when you consider that he's pitching in the NL and generally only pitching into the fifth or sixth inning, what you're basically saying is that he does well when he gets to pitch to the opposing pitcher.

All due respect to Mark, but his biggest bugaboo isn't the first inning. It's that he's simply not very good any more. At his best he drew ground balls at an over 60% pace- which led to a really low HR rate- and struck out 4-5 guys every nine innings. Now he's getting ground balls at around the league average and therefore allowing HRs at a much higher rate. And he's not striking out anyone even though one-ninth of his opponents are pitchers, which wasn't the case when he pitched in NY.

His BABIP of .261 also indicates that he's lucky his number aren't worse.

Nice guy, nice story, and I'll be rooting like heck for him tonight. But the irrational optimism for the guy is a bit much at this point.

BinM said...

Wang needs to get a lather worked up in the bullpen tonight, like Livo (probably to a lesser degree, however). Let him step onto the mound having thrown 50+ pitches instead of the 25 or so 'bullpen' warmups that most pitchers take.

jd said...

Bowdenball,

I don't think it's irrational optimism; I think we all know that he's a long shot to make it all the way back but I don't understand why you already concluded that he's a bust. I've watched every one of his starts and he's had more effective innings than not. Could it not be that he's still struggling to regain his command?

I mean the potential upside is very nice; I don't understand why you are in such a hurry to give up. We already know that Gorzo, Lannan and Livo are mediocre why not take a shot in the dark? who is he holding back?

baseballswami said...

I don't know - I just think that we have seen what he has at this point and I don't think we are going to see anything new. This is where he is right now. Maybe in the spring he will be built back up a little more as more time passes and he can continue to gain strength - but maybe not,either. Now - what you see is what you get.My prediction - a typical CMW start.

BinM said...

Bowdenball - Seven unearned runs equals a ton? I get your point, but I believe you're overstating it a bit. Wang's current BAA(.265), P/IP(14.51) and WHIP(1.39) still leave him in the mix as a SP under review for next year for WSH, imo.

jd said...

You know what guys. CMW hasn't been worse than Lannan, he hasn't been worse than Detwiler he hasn't been worse than Milone. Why the negativity? we're not paying him what we payed Marquis and he's not pitching worse than Marquis did.

I am not suggesting we give him 3 years at $10 mil per. I am not even suggesting we give 2 years at $7.5 per like we gave Marquis but at 1 year for $5mil I think it's a good gamble.

TheYellowSlant said...

A must post for every Dillon Gee start (really upset I missed the last one).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mPqycQ0tQ

NatsJack in Florida said...

As someone who has watched him for almost 2 full years now, I can say that the guy throwing now is immensely better than anything I ever saw in Viera. His improvement from June alone has been extremely impressive.

This guy is trying to work off more than 2 years of rust and I say lets see a couple more starts, at least.

Remember, I had absolutely no hope for him going in to his rehab starts.

baseballswami said...

jd - my point is not to be negative toward CMW - just that they are trying to see where he is, and they have already seen it. Do you think he will continue to improve in a couple more starts - or do you think that this is where he is for now? Not saying he is terrible - just saying that there is nothing more to see right now. Maybe call it a day until spring?

Sec 3, My Sofa said...

One other point to consider, maybe: they are more or less forced to put him out there at this point for contractual reasons. He's spent two years rehabbing, which is a long time, but it's from a really unusual (for a baseball player) injury, so who know how long it is "supposed" to take? I suspect that if Rizzo had the option to keep him in the minors all year, just to keep building up strength and command, he might have done so, but that was not an option. As has been noted, they aren't contending for anything more than third place at this point, so if he costs them a few wins, that beats walking away from several million dollars, not ever knowing if it would have worked.

Scooter said...

It's the height of lunacy to compare a rookie to a guy rehabbing his shoulder. So I'll do just that: in his first 16 games (i.e., the 2009 season), JORDAN posted a first-inning ERA of 9.00 and a 3.05 the rest of the time.

All's I'm saying is, it's obvious that Wang is going to snap a tendon at the end of this year, have a few rehab starts at the end of 2012, and finally put together a solid ... wait. No. That's not what I'm saying, sorry.

All's I'm saying is, 8 poor first innings aren't always the end of the story.

Scooter said...

I suspect that if Rizzo had the option to keep him in the minors all year, just to keep building up strength and command, he might have done so, but that was not an option.

Sec3, stone cold bringin' it with the reasonable.

Sec 3, My Sofa said...

The cellar-chilled montepulchiano d'abruzzo of reasonableness...

Scooter said...

Hit me with a 40 of that rizz-easonable, my brother.

Sec 3, My Sofa said...

the white port of reason on the lemon juice of statistical significance...


anyhow, the team is what, 3-5 in games he started, which is about what they'd be if somebody else (not named yunesky) had started them, so he's more or less earned his $2MM, hasn't cost them in the standings, and they *do* need to finish seeing what they paid for.

Scooter said...

Okay, one more, because I bothered to check it. JORDAN's first 8 starts:
First inning - 16.88 ERA
All others - 3.79

It's just as poor a comparison as before, but this completes my thought from above.

(Also, Bowdenball had a good point on unearned runs. If you include all runs, though, the difference is still something like 12.38 to 4.40 or so. And so many of those runs came in his first two starts after two years off. I am forced to conclude -- yet again -- that we cannot conclude anything. We fans just want answers WAY too fast.)

fin

Big Cat said...

Put me in the jd and NatsJack corner on this one. Wang was written off my list completely. In fact I was jokingly calling him "lochness" cause we didn't ever see him, we just heard about him. Yes, he has taken some lumps this year, as to be expected, but there has also been some very impressive innings put together. His ball has serious movement when right. I think with his upside, you just can't give up on him. I would try and get him in a good winterball league.....maybe Venezuela or Puerto Rico and see what we got going into spring

BinM said...

At this point in the season, Wang, Detwiler, & Milone are all being looked at for next seasons' rotation. They'll have additional competition come spring training to be sure, but for right now I've got Wang with a slight edge over Detwiler, and Milone bringing up the rear.

Just remember, everything changes everything; the picking order could shift dramatically over the last two weeks. The only starting pitchers with 'locked' roster spots for 2012 are Strasburg/JZimm/Lannan. The other two spots & final order are still open for negotiation, imo.

Big Cat said...

Here is something I don't know however.....when does his contract run out? Jan 1?

jd said...

Bowdenball,

I agree that it's not likely that CMW will revert to pre injury form in the next 2 weeks. I feel that he's worth bringing back next spring. Other teams have done this with Brandon Webb and Ben Sheets. If it works out great other wise wjat's a few million dollars among friends?

Sec 3, My Sofa said...

Just remember, everything changes everything

And everything between now and February is just for pole position.

Sec 3, My Sofa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
NatsJack in Florida said...

Big Cat.... the Nats have exclusive negotiating rights with CMW till 5 days after the World Series. Then he becomes a free agent.

Sec 3, My Sofa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jd said...

NatsJack,

I assume that his people will give the Nats every opportunity to work something out. They invested 2 years in his rehab and he seems like a loyal guy. Obviously if someone throws $10 mil at him he'll take it but I think that the Nats should have a number in mind and not go over it.

sjm308 said...

Who is Wang's agent? Will that make any difference? I am guessing since we need to make this offer in the next month that things are already underway. I am in the camp of bringing him back next year as long as his demands are not outrageous and how could they be? Two years tops, one year with an option if we can and no more than 5 million the first year with lots of incentives if you wish. (I love spending Lerners money). This is assuming he pitches like he has so far. I can only think he will be even better next year. Like Natsjack said, in Fla. it didn't even look like he would finish his rehab assignment. He has come leaps and bounds and should only get better. Remember also that this young man knows how to win and has been with a winner which is not a bad thing. If all this happens, we don't have to worry about a FA pitcher which will upset SteveM. but we can use that money to find our leadoff hitter. I have already placed Werth in CF for next year so that is another worry off the board. This faux GM stuff is really fun.

Sec 3 - I would like to hang on your sofa just to soak up more quotes/and alcohol related phrases!! keep em comin'

Hoping after tonight we will just need 6 more wins!!!

Go Nats!

A DC Wonk said...

baseballswami said...

jd - my point is not to be negative toward CMW - just that they are trying to see where he is, and they have already seen it. Do you think he will continue to improve in a couple more starts - or do you think that this is where he is for now? Not saying he is terrible - just saying that there is nothing more to see right now.


Are we 100% sure there's nothing more to see? I think it's possible, perhaps even likely, but not definitive. I don't think there's anything wrong -- and perhaps something to gain -- with a letting him have every 5th or 6th day -- which is just a few more starts.

There _is_ rather large potential upside -- he did finish 2d in Cy Young five years back -- even if the probability is low. It's worth a couple more starts to see.

natsfan1a said...

Maybe I'm missing something but "yellow slant"??

sjm308 said...

There was discussion on the last post about lots of great topics but I wanted to ask this question on a newer post.

With Rendon's age and college experience, shouldn't we expect him to move quickly if he shows promise? I think he is 21 or 22 so why couldn't we expect him in the majors next year if he hammers minor league pitching?

Along those lines, if Harper continues his march through AA & AAA what is the negative to bringing him up next year as well? I realize he stumbled slightly in AA this year but what if he has a great AFL and then crushes everything early next year? What is the justification to keeping him in the minors?

Just asking.

Sunshine_Bobby_Carpenter_Is_Too_Pessimistic_For_Me said...

My take on the 2012 rotation: I don't think CMW, LannEn or Det make it. One is just too banged up, the second has more or less peaked and, last night's 5 innings notwithstanding, is nothing to write home about.

1. Jesus
2. Z'mmnn
3. FA
4. Milone
5. Peacock

I think LannEn/Flores/Espi get packaged in a trade for a legit CF. Espi's second half slide has been arresting and alarming. I think pitchers have figured him out.

I can live with the Kiddie Korps rotation with a serious FA in the middle of rotation.

Section 222 said...

I remember when CMW was "expected" to return by May or June of.... 2010. He was constantly not quite ready to return last year. Now that he's back I see no reason not to give him every opportunity to prove that he should be re-signed for next year. Certainly he deserves as many starts between now and the end of the year as Detwiler (who has had a great September before, remember) and Milone.

I'm surprised to hear that CMW has already met some of the metrics for getting incentive pay for this year. Really? For eight starts you get more than $1 million, after getting $2 million to rehab last year. Nice work if you can get it.

As for tonight's lineup, surprised to see Werth back in RF. Yesterday on Jaegler's pregame show, Davey said that Werth wants to play center, but Davey was displeased with his throws from out there and talked to him about it, and left him in center last night. What did Werth do to get moved for tonight? Hope someone asks about this.

sjm308 said...

just as I am getting excited about Werth in CF he is moved - there obviously is no communication from the manager to this faux gm. Doesn't Davey read this stuff?

Anonymous said...

sjm 308 -- the short answer "no"

gonatsgo said...

So - are we looking at Werth for cf or not? Or is the manager having another one of his spontaneous tantrums? He has a "great idea" - he tries it out and the minute one thing doesn't look right, he --ziiiiiiing -- does a 180. He has done so many about-faces this last couple of months that I have lost track. It's the epitome of "who's on first", "what's on second". Attention deficit disorder?

Anonymous said...

gonatsgo - and this from the man who issued the statement on his first day with the team to this effect -- he would keep the line up pretty much the same every day.

Anonymous said...

Sunday's starting lineup as reported by Zuckerman (you could look it up: http://www.natsinsider.com/2011/09/game-144-astros-at-nats.html) had Ankiel in CF and Werth in RF. Yet when the game began, Werth was in CF and Ankiel in RF. Could be the same deal today. Perhaps Zuckerman screwed up in passing on the lineup. (In some circles, such shoddy beat writing is referred to as "pulling a Kilgore".)

sunderland said...

Looking for Wang to have a solid outing tonight.
Does Lannan have a 2012 rotation spot, his to lose? Some say yes. Some say no. I think yes, if only because his competition is weak and I don't think Rizzo has the stomach for a significant FA SP signing (this is not a critcism BTW, I'm just pouring some Bud Lime on the Boone's Farm of prognostication)

SCNatsFan said...

It's 5:46, I hope Wang is throwing hard right now

Bowdenball said...

Great comments, everyone. Let me explain why I've given up on Wang- actually, my heart still hasn't given up, by me head has.

I think we can all agree that the optimism in Natstown about Wang stems from a pitcher who was last seen in 2008. Guys who were good then and who would still be expected to be good in 2012 and beyond fall into two categories- Hall of Fame type talents (Lee, Halladay, Sabathia) and guys were were under 25 back then (Hernandez, Lincecum, Lester). Wang falls into neither category. His peers from 2006-2008 are guys like Derek Lowe, Daisuke Matsusaka, Hideki Kuroda, Armando Gallaraga, John Lackey, and so on. So even before we consider the devastating injury that forced him to start over from scratch, you're talking about beating very long odds to still be an above-average major league pitcher.

Now add to that the fact that he suffered a devastating injury and has never shown glimpses of being the pitcher he was back then. Sorry, but a good inning here and there doesn't count. You could throw batting practice fastballs and still luck into a good inning here and there by the law of averages, especially if you get to face a pitcher in a high percentage of those innings, which is basically what you're doing when you remove the first inning from his overall stats. Also, as I showed before the groundball numbers and K numbers aren't anywhere close to what they were before.

Now add to that the fact that he really wasn't even that good before. In 2008 he didn't even rank among the top 40 in Wins Above Replacement for starting pitchers. He did appear on the list in 2007, but not at the top, and that was him at his peak- that will be five years ago come next year. His impressive W/L record was a factor of the team he pitched for as much as his pitching performances.

Now add to that the fact that even his poor statistics this season have benefitted from a good deal of fortune. His BABIP is about 30 points lower this year than his career average. With a guy who depends on putting the ball in play, that means his numbers are more likely to get worse as time goes on than get better.

Now add to that the fact that he's striking out 2-3 fewer guys per inning even though he now gets to face pitchers.

Now add to that the fact that the guy is 31, the age when athletic performance often starts to decline, sometimes rapidly.

Add it all up and I see no reason for optimism. I really truly hope he magically becomes the pitcher he was in 2007 somehow. But my fear is that if he puts together a few semi-decent outings against watered down competition in the last few weeks of the season, the team will overreact and plunk down money that I think would be a very poor investment. My other concern is that I'd really like to see some of the younger guys for whom improvement in the next season or two is more more realistic get these September starts instead of Wang. I'm glad to see Peacock and Milone will be regulars for the next few weeks but I wish it had happened sooner.

It's just my opinion. Hopefully I'm wrong and you all are right and we start to see that tonight.

Wally said...

sjm308 said...
With Rendon's age and college experience, shouldn't we expect him to move quickly if he shows promise? ... Along those lines, if Harper continues his march through AA & AAA what is the negative to bringing him up next year as well? ...


My two cents: it all depends on what the team is trying to do next year. If it genuinely wants to compete for a wild card, then multiple rookies at starting spots will not get you there, or at least make it more unlikely. Rookies usually take a while to get acclimated and find their true level. If you are building towards 2013, then it makes more sense.

Plus, if you look at Tampa, they tend to leave their guys in the minors longer than most so that they maximize the performance of the young guys in their pre-arb and arb years (Jennings this year, for example; hellickson last year). I would consider this for Harper, since I suspect that he will be a guy that tests free agency at the earlies possible time.

Bowdenball said...

Sorry, that should say "but my head has" in the fist paragraph. And 2-3 fewer guys per 9 innings, not per inning, of course.

sunderland said...

So Bowdenball thinks Wang is proof positive that Derek Jeter is the most over-rated defensive SS ever, since Wang's BABIP is 30 points lower with the Nats than his career average.

Kidding of course.

Bowdenball, very nicely laid out. My head says you're well reasoned. My heart has it's fingers in it's ears and is pretending to not listen.

natsfan1a said...

OTOH, my fingers scrolled through the whole thing. Is it baseball time yet?

Cwj said...

@NF1A- in about 40 minutes :)

NatsLady said...

You know what I heard on the radio coming to work? They are promoting the Marlins series. And who are they calling the person who will create the "defining" moment? Not Strasburg, no it's--- Tyler Clippard!!!!! Some random, y'know, middle reliever? The word is out.

SCNatsFan said...

Anyone who posts about trading Rendon before we lock up Zim should be drawn and quartered.

A DC Wonk said...

gonatsgo said...

So - are we looking at Werth for cf or not? Or is the manager having another one of his spontaneous tantrums? He has a "great idea" - he tries it out and the minute one thing doesn't look right, he --ziiiiiiing -- does a 180. He has done so many about-faces this last couple of months that I have lost track. It's the epitome of "who's on first", "what's on second". Attention deficit disorder?


Tantrums? What are you talking about? Perhaps you caught some DDS! ;-)

(Davey Derangement Syndrome)

JaneB said...

Wang! Good going!

MicheleS said...

Sec3.. having a nice bottle of chilled Viognier from Chile right now....and a nice first inning from CMW

I am willing to give CMW the rest of the season. NO ONE has ever come back from the surgery he had (at least I remember reading that somewhere) and he is worth the cheap risk we are taking. If he makes it back to say 85% of what he was, he could be a 4/5 starter for us

MicheleS said...

Dave/FP explained that JWerth is in RF today because of a strained calf.. not bad enough to come out and DJ didn't want to risk it worsening. That's why they switched late last night.

NatsJack in Florida said...

2-0 counts on hitters does not bode well.

NatsJack in Florida said...

but sinkers down in the zone do.

A DC Wonk said...

MicheleS said...

Dave/FP explained that JWerth is in RF today because of a strained calf.. not bad enough to come out and DJ didn't want to risk it worsening. That's why they switched late last night.


You mean there's a rational explanation? And it's not a tantrum?

MicheleS said...

Wonk...

Yup.. Kilgore has it on the Journal as well about Werth...Sounds like Werth wants to play CF.. so that is a good thing...so no tantrum and no crazy syndrome either...

MicheleS said...

On another note.. A shout out for some good health for Corey Brown who had to have is knee cleaned out for what they suspect is a staph infection and will be on the shelf for the rest of the season. Staph infections are not something you mess with.. Hope the kid has a speedy recovery!

Andrew said...

So sad about Corey Brown. I had dinner with him last week and he was so excited about his call-up. With family and friends who flew into town, I know he wanted to show everyone what he could do.

Dave said...

FP and Jags are fun in the booth riffing about Star Wars.

Gonat said...

No clean innings for Wang which is fine because they were all effective innings. Got the sinker and the double play when needed.

NatsJack In Florida said...

Sorry folks.... but I like what I see in CMW.

Now get him some runs.

Anonymous said...

EASILY the most entertaining blog entries all season.

Anonymous said...

Have you seen yesterday's game's comments? They're hilarious!

N. Cognito said...

jd said...
"Bowdenball,
I mean the potential upside is very nice; I don't understand why you are in such a hurry to give up."

Why should Bowdenball be any different than a lot of the people here?

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:12- ill chk.them out.

MicheleS said...

Anon 8:12.. yes I saw them and was sad that I missed the back and forth live...

Wonk.. if your Wonkette was the one that posted last night.. keep her away from Espi....


@Dave... FP/Dave crack me up about Star Wars.

Anonymous said...

Espi was not close on that SB attempt. He *seems* fast. He has hit two balls well tonight.
sunderlanf

Gonat said...

NatsJack In Florida said...
Sorry folks.... but I like what I see in CMW.

Now get him some runs.

September 13, 2011 8:09 PM
_____________________________

Don't say sorry, this is what I have been waiting to see. Not a guy who is pitching perfect rather a pitcher who is making his innings work. He looks comfortable for the first time this season.

Dave said...

FP: "If that happens, I'll see Star Wars. With my sword."

Dave: "Light sabre."

Anonymous said...

I like the easy way FP schools his colleagues (& us).

Dave said...

Rick "The Arm" Ankiel shoots a rifle shot to home and saves a run from scoring. Still scoreless, two outs.

MicheleS said...

Ankiel Rocks! Got to love that arm

dryw said...

Ankiel had him dead to rights! What a throw!!!

NatsJack in Florida said...

Is that another ground ball out?

And Davey looks like a genius again. (Ankiel in CF)

Anonymous said...

Un bee leeeve a bull!!!

dryw said...

And then there's Jayson. Sigh.

Dave said...

Oops. Werth looks like not the smoothest right fielder right there. Not only does he miss the ball, he loses his footing in right field, trying to do an Ankiel. 2-0 Mets.

NatsJack in Florida said...

OK now Davey's dumb (Werth in RF)

Gonat said...

Ankiel's hilight reel keeps getting longer. Unfortunately, like Detwiler last night, another starter unraveling quickly. Saved by Ankiel or else this inning would have been a bigger disaster.

Just as I was thinking THIS was Wang's night. 2 straight nights in a row to be pulled into this "Has He Arrived" scenario.

Gonat said...

NatsJack In Florida said...
Sorry folks.... but I like what I see in CMW.

Now get him some runs.

September 13, 2011 8:09 PM
______________________________

I think we should have waited a few more innings before we patted Wang on his back.

Its 1 earned run but without Ankiel this could have been a lot worse.

MicheleS said...

Ugh.. even the ump is against us...he was squeezing CMW and helping out the Mets... Geesh.. even FP is showing the bad calls...

Anonymous said...

A thang!!

Gonat said...

OK, looks like they made both runs earned now. Not sure if that is right. Still, 4 nice innings doesn't a masterpiece start make.

Do the Nats have a September starter who can pitch a real masterpiece?

Anonymous8 said...

Its been so long since Davey has seen a real masterpiece that he is now calling forgeries as masterpieces.

A little tongue in cheek to a story of an art expert who couldn't tell a real Monet vs. a forgery and Davey referring to Detwiler's 5 2/3 innings yesterday as a "masterpiece".

Anonymous said...

Okay. Im just going to admit it. I love Rick Ankiel.. please, don't tell Danny.

baseballswami said...

Working late again - got in the car 0-0 game, when all of a sudden ( charlie and dave had rizzo in the booth by the way) people start getting hits off CMW like crazy and then Werth makes an error. Wow - it was like I drove 2 miles and all heck broke loose. Trying to catch up here without Mark's updates - sounds like cmw was pretty good for a bit, according to previous posts from earlier in the game. Is Gee pitching well or are we making him look good? Haven't seen much written about the offense. Glad to see the offense maybe waking up now.

Anonymous said...

Davey's looney. Now, I'm headed to work.
enjoy.

Anonymous said...

Jagler and FP talking about unintentionally/intentionally walking Morse. NOT. Thats embarassing.

baseballswami said...

MicheleS - Rizzo ( in the booth with Charlie and Dave ) made some snarky comments about the umps ball and strike calls.

Gonat said...

Dave isn't with Charlie. Dave is with FP

baseballswami said...

Gonat- sorry - recognized one of the voices and assumed the other one was sitting there! Anyway - rizzo was definitely there!

MicheleS said...

Swami.. thanks for that.. Glad the GM is calling out the crappy umpires... GEESH.. MLB needs to do something about this soon!

Wally said...

I am hesitant to say this, imagining the Davey bashing. But I am not sure that I get why Slaten is being used so much lately. Why not see what Severino has? Or Stammen was warming up, why not use him?

Anonymous8 said...

HERE WE GO AGAIN. Slaten comes in and promptly walks Babe Pagan. What a joke and why is he still in a Nats uniform?

Anonymous8 said...

I will say it again. Why is Slaten still in a Nats uniform? He is a loogy alright and that term has nothing to do with baseball.

Davey makes the choices. Tonight he stuck with Wang through the full 5 innings and chooses to use Slaten once again.

Anonymous said...

Wally, I agree to a point. But I bash Davey as much as anyone, yet I can't complain about a manager using a guy the way he is supposed to be used. If Slaten is going to consume a roster spot, that was a good place to use him. Noe let's see what Stammen can do.
sunderland

baseballswami said...

I would have to agree that it's probably not a good choice to bring in Slaten with the game tied. He just hasn't been back that long. There are obviously command issues. Now Stammen enters with the deck stacked against him. oh, boy...

MicheleS said...

DFA... Slaten.. not sure what his purpose is now...

Anonymous said...

Nice job getting the out by Stammen. Let's go Nats!

Wally said...

Sunderland - to be clear, I like Davey so I wasn't trying to get a Davey bash-fest going.

But I don't get the Slaten use. I am in Anon8's camp that I don't think he is effective, he has a fairly long body of work so you know what he has even when going well, he is on the wrong side of 30, and we are playing all these other guys to see what they can do. why not bring in one of those, like Stammen? That is really what is puzzling. I assume it is an audition for next year, but he isn't the only one in that spot.

baseballswami said...

I have always like the way Stammen goes about his business. He seems to have been lost in the shuffle for a while. Nice to see him come in and shut down that inning.

JaneB said...

The good Craig visited us tonite! If we could have THAT out of the pen all the time, we'd be golden.

I know. We can't. But I'm glad he did so well. I don't wish Slaten to be at the end if his career. Just at the end of his time as a Nat.

Wally said...

Swami - me too. Always felt he was better than the group of Chico, Martin, Martis, etc, but got lumped in with all of them.

Plus, he can hit. So he has that going for him, which is nice.

Anonymous said...

Good job Stammen! On the mound and at the plate!

baseballswami said...

I love it when the pitchers hit!

Anonymous said...

So, are we ready to ask Stammen to give up the rotation dream and join the bullpen next season?
sunderland

Wally said...

Anyone remember that HR Adam Dunn hit at Shea, into the concourse? That was some blast

MicheleS said...

I love when the other team has the Brain Fart (Reyes' not turning the DP) and we benefit. I hope we can enjoy moments like that for many years to come.

Sec 3, My Sofa said...

Who was it calling for Severino?

(must ... resist ... typing .... Save-a-rino...)

Wally said...

That would be me. Nice pitch, but what does this guy have to do to get some innings? It is almost humorous how rarely he gets used.

Anonymous8 said...

I am in a love/hate marriage with Davey. Love the Severino move and wish he used him earlier instead of Slaten. Please DFA Slaten. He can't be part of a team where you are trying to teach youngsters. This is tough love----Slaten, you stink!

Sec 3, My Sofa said...

Is it me, or has Coffey put on a couple of stone?

A DC Wonk said...

Why Slaten then and not Save-a-rino (hey Sec 3, I like that) -- now we know.

Apparently both of them were on his "LOOGY's I can use tonight" -- and he prefered Slaten to start off an inning, and Save-a-rino for a mid-inning jam.

Now -- for those who don't like Slaten, that makes more sense, right? Let Slaten pitch with bases empty.

Copy Editor said...

MicheleS: Agree with your notion, but not sure "brain fart' warrants capitalization...

Sec 3, My Sofa said...

I think Davey just loves having a full 40-man roster suited up for a game.

Wally said...

Sec 3 - don't know, but I do know that while the ladies from last night would like to feed the skinny guys, Coffey is the only one showing up at the table.

Is it Charlie or Dave working with FP? I like him. Hope he gets the gig next year.

Anonymous8 said...

By the way, Marrero seems to be improving every day. Its his 1st off day at the bat so far although a better day with the glove.

Coffey as a STOPPER/Fireman, solid again. I have a feeling Davey brings Coffey out for the 8th and hoping he doesn't. If you use Coffey for 2 batters or less, he may be one of the best in the Majors (Credit to Steve M. for his analysis on Coffey) None of my posts should ever be construed as anything original LOL.

Anonymous said...

Davy is a genuis. A baseball.God... Coffey has love handles...

Dave said...

The great Dave Jageler is the one on TV tonight with FP. Charlie's working all by himself (with help from Rizzo, apparently).

MicheleS said...

@Wally; From the ladies from last night.. Coffey/Livo meet Det, Det go eat with Coffey/Livo..

@Copy Editor: And yes Brain Fart warrants capitalization when you give up the go ahead run!

dryw said...

Wally, I must confess that I have no desire to feed Todd Coffey. Do you think he's taking Ross' cookies??? ;-)

jeffwx said...

Davey for batting coach too.
Nice goin Espi

Anonymous said...

Brain Fart warrants caps, regardless.

Wally said...

Dryw - It is pretty clear Todd is taking someone's cookies, right?

Anonymous8 said...

Have you all seen Coffey in a TShirt? Not a pretty sight. Major man-boobage even with all that excercise running in from the bullpen. His wife is as thin as a rail so go figure.

BTW, Sean Burnett back in his old spot, the set-up man.

Sec 3, My Sofa said...

Nothing left to do but take the Mets' lunch money! GYFNG!

Wally said...

Anon8- I haven't seen it, but can't say that I am surprised by the conclusion. It doesn't exactly look promising with the uniform over the T shirt, either.

Wally said...

Voldemort with a solid inning. Some pretty good relief pitching tonight. Would love to see a few insurance runs here.

JaneB said...

I miss Livo. Best athlete on the team too, whether or not he looks it. Good for Sean by the way.

These WB Mason spots are worse than the old ones.

A DC Wonk said...

Nice inning by Burnett. FP or Jaegler noted that he's pitched scoreless 8 of his last 9 outings. So, now make that 9 out of his last 10.

MicheleS said...

JaneB.. I miss Livo and Pudge. I hope the Nats at least give us a chance over the next few home games to give them the love that they deserve!

Sec 3, My Sofa said...

FP getting a little bitter about the strike zone at this point.

Anonymous said...

WB Mason = dull.

Eugene in Oregon said...

(1) The Nats have made clear all year that they don't believe in insurance runs. Kind of like the federal gov't, they self insure.

(2) How many games has Boston had in which they've scored in the teens? They're now up 18-5, which seems to happen about once a week.

jeffwx said...

I am thinkin the nats are gonna be pretty, pretty good next year
lombo/desi .280
Upton (not the really good one) .250 /15/60
zimm .290 30/110
morse .280 30/100
laroche .260 /30/80
werth .270 25/80
espi .270 25/80
ramoz .260 25/80

Wally said...

Hey, the Mets took one of our smurfs.

Anonymous said...

MicheleS, old scary Davy as much as said he wouldn't be using Pudge again .. Davy , Yuck

Anonymous8 said...

@Wally, did you see Phil Mickelson back in 2006? He is an A cup compared to Coffee's B cup.

jeffwx said...

Can someone tell me why we can't use the pitch track technology for balls/strikes giving the homeplate ump less to worry about

Anonymous said...

Sometimes you guys are more entertaining than the game

Wally said...

Nice K there.

Anon8- Phil's weight definitely bounces around, doesn't it? Although he has never quite gotten to Daly levels. Also seems to directly impact how well he does.

Sec 3, My Sofa said...

I don't think the umps worry about it. They just call 'em like they see 'em.

Anonymous said...

Because pitchtrak only works well on TV

Eugene in Oregon said...

Watching MLB.tv, so I've got the Mets announcers. Keith Hernandez (I think it's him) just noted that the Nats had considered trading Storen at the deadline. His evaluation of that notion? "What were they thinking? They've got the real deal here." (That was, of course, just before Reyes' single.)

jeffwx said...

Ok, Why do we need an ump to call balls/strikes
when there is better technology out there.

Dave said...

Uh oh. We need the brilliant Drew tonight. First and third, two outs.

Anonymous said...

Thee game streak!

Dave said...

Good. We got the brilliant Drew tonight.

Nats win a second 3-2 game in a row. Third win in a row.

Wally said...

Nasty Drew! It is never flippin' easy though, is it?

PS. Captcha was 'scone'

dryw said...

Nasty Drew, I'll bake you cookies any day of the week!
GYFNG!!!!

Sec 3, My Sofa said...

and a well-earned win for Stammen! Nice job all around, kid.

dryw said...

Ok, or scones. I can bake scones. :-)

jeffwx said...

If they can put a man on the moon, if they can rebuild Wang's shoulder, i think we can make it
wourk.

Storen drew another save.

A DC Wonk said...

3 K's for Storen -- Kardiak Kids -- way to go Storen. Way to go Nats! (Matches their win total last year). Nice use of the bullpen!

Anonymous8 said...

This team has more characters than a sitcom. And like a sitcom, the star of the show, Davey Johnson, says some funny stuff. If Davey calls Wang's start a gem, a masterpiece, or a thing of beauty, I will suggest he sees a therapist.

Kardiac Kids do it again. Storen got my heart racing. Very satisfying win. Finally Davey uses his large bullpen in the 7th inning in situational perfection. FINALLY

Sec 3, My Sofa said...

Nasty Drew -- The Case of the Disappearing Slider!

Scooter said...

Okay, so ... Wang started, Slaten and Stammen AND Burnett all pitched, Coffey came in with men on base, and no Clippard.

So why is the number next to "NATS" bigger than the number next to the other team's name? I was led to believe the team couldn't win under those conditions. Now I fear I may have been led astray by my fellow Nats Insider commenters ...

(I tease, because I love. GYFNICG!!)

Wally said...

Ok, so that is Dave Jageler. He .. uh...looks like a radio guy

Anonymous said...

For three strike outs I can bake anything! Did Stammen get the win? Awesome! And I agree that Coffey needs to stay away from Detweiler's cookies. Is that actually 3 in a row. Wow!

Nats Outsider said...

Someone correct me if I my memory fails, but haven't the Nats now equaled the number of wins they had last year? Woohoo!!

baseballswami said...

Sec 3 -- best post I have read in a long time - that is perfect!!

Dave said...

You don't have to look at Jags much on a TV broadcast. Opening, closing, maybe once during the game.

But he's a great play-by-play guy, you have to admit. One of the best I've ever heard.

A DC Wonk said...

Huh . . . I'd never actually seen Dave Jageler before -- he looks absolutely nothing like his voice sounds.

BTW -- what was Reyes thinking when he walked the ball to second taking himself out of a double-play, which was followed immediately by R Zim's game winning hit?

Anonymous said...

Jaegler is primo..& funny, too!

Anonymous said...

In the post-game show, Ray showed clearly that Wang got shafted by the ump on calls.

A DC Wonk said...

Dave said...

You don't have to look at Jags much on a TV broadcast. Opening, closing, maybe once during the game.

But he's a great play-by-play guy, you have to admit. One of the best I've ever heard.

Yep -- Dave and Charlie are *both* really awesome. I have XM in the car, and I listen to a number of games -- and very very few teams have anybody, and certainly not two, guys who are as good as Dave and Charlie.

Anonymous8 said...

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/fantasy/news/index.jsp#player_id=425545

Josh Willingham is on a hot streak. His numbers will end up very good. 88 RBIs in only 438 ABs.

Josh Willingham with a day off once every 10 days makes a very good offensive player when he isn't overused. His OBP is off from last year at .333 but his clutch numbers are very good.

He probably doesn't fit into the future here, just impressed by the season Willingham as ended up with.

skidge said...

I've listened to Dave for years but hadn't seen him until tonight. Not the picture I had at all... but he's so good and I love listening to him.!

A DC Wonk said...

Anonymous said...

In the post-game show, Ray showed clearly that Wang got shafted by the ump on calls.
Anonymous said...

In the post-game show, Ray showed clearly that Wang got shafted by the ump on calls.


Wow -- I just saw that -- he sure _was_ shafted!

BTW, don't you just love seeing guys swing and strike out at Nasty Storen's stuff in the dirt?

Nats Outsider said...

I just looked at the schedule for the rest of the season. After the next two at the Mets, there will be 13 more games. Ugh:

Phillies (4)
Braves (3)
Marlins (6)

They *ought* to be able to mop the floor with the Marlins, but they always seem to have our number, and they have been resurgent lately. It ain't gonna be easy to be close to 500 the rest of the way, which we have to do to hold on to 4th place, let alone climb back to 3rd.

Anonymous said...

I'm better on a blog or radio than tv.. probably true about most.

Wally said...

Agree on Dave Jageler, he was very good and I hope he gets the full time job next year. I don't listen to games on the radio much, so while all of you have touted his praises, this is the first time I listened to him. Very solid, and a good pairing with FP

jeffwx said...

Actually, the phils may rest some of the big boys for the post so we could have a better chance against em.

natsfan1a said...

Nats win! Nats win!

Sec 3, My Sofa said...

Dave (and Charlie) both have deeper voices than they "look like" for sure, and I doubt that's totally an accident. Announcers train for the big leagues, too, yanno.

Thanks, Swamiji. "Nasty Drew" does have a ring to it, doesn't it?

gonatsgo said...

Marrero is looking more and more like a big leaguer. And "Nasty Drew" is in the top ten in saves.Hits were spread pretty well throughout the lineup. These 3 games have been a relief - things were looking pretty grim there for a while.For those who think no one has anything to play for at this point - it still feels like every win is important.

sjm308 said...

Nice win!! 6 More please!

Michelle - we were also enjoying a Viognier but from Veritas a wonderful Winery outside of Charlotsville. We then moved to a nice Port and after that a little Bailey's and Black Bush (come on, its a nine inning game)

Wang was again impressive enough that I would keep him. Ray did a nice job of showing just how much movement he was getting on his pitches and also how the ump was totally squeezing him. I see no reason not to resign him

Stammen was excellent tonight and why are we throwing Slaten any more this season? Lets see what Saverino can do.

I guess SteveM had this first but I was right there with Coffey and screaming at Davey to keep him at just one inning. I truly think that Coffey in the 7th Clip in the 8th and Storen in the 9th leads us into the playoffs next year.

Nice to keep the same hat on for the last 3 days and will wear it again proudly tomorrow.

Question for the group. I am going on an 8 day cruise from Montreal up the St. Lawrence, ending up in Boston leaving on Friday and not getting home until the 24th. Should I just take one hat or take a couple and keep switching if we can't win all 8 days? Will be tough to wear them to dinner as they have some crazy rule about formal wear. I wanted to be the only one on the boat with a ball cap on at dinner but my spousal equivalent is not happy with that thought.

Hoping they have a tv with mlb channel at the bar.

natsfan1a said...

Yep, they've matched their win total from last year, with 15 games to go, I believe.

Radio personalities rarely look like I imagined them. Neither do characters in movies made from books that I've read. Possibly some of us have faces made for blogs. Not any of us is shallow enough to judge someone based on their appearance, of course. ;-)

And I miss Pudge and Livo, too.

Sec 3, My Sofa said...

I think dryw coined "Nasty Drew," fwiw.

natsfan1a said...

sjm, just have fun on the cruise and don't worry about the team. I suspect that they'll do fine (or not) regardless of your sartorial selection. :-)

Sec 3, My Sofa said...

What she said. But don't wear the cap to dinner.
Srsly. Not a good statement.

natsfan1a said...

For the record:

2010, 62-84

2011, 69-77

baseballswami said...

Whoever coined the name - it's priceless - especially with the "case of the disappearing slider". I was talking with a friend earlier who was complaining about the toxic anger level in sports blogs ( not baseball). I told him that one of the things I love about NI is the great sense of humor that is in evidence win or lose - sometimes more in losses! You all keep me laughing. Thanks imaginary friends!

gonatsgo said...

OK - pitching in this game. The strike zone was, shall we say,"fluid". And at times I felt like we were going to have a separate pitcher for each batter. Every time you blinked, there was a pitching change. You have got to love September baseball , except for the fact that the games take so much longer because of it.

sjm308 said...

I will have to keep my spousal equivalent away from this site - she is also in the don't take the baseball caps camp - problem is, if they lose 8 in a row I will be distraught - hope you guys know I am kidding but its great fun to be on here

How great would it be to finish 3rd this year? Still a definite possibility and the great thing is, we play divisional teams only so there are really no excuses. Its time we turned it around on the fish.

Go Nats 6 to go!!

NatsLady said...

There is no way for me to get home. Construction on 395 and 66. Grrrr.

Um.

CMW was ok?

Coffey should lay off Detwiler's cookies? (Did you see him in the throwback uni's? Not his best look.)

Nasty Drew--love it.

The Arm struck again?

Stammen can hit (and pitch)?

RZimm won the game again?

Did I miss anything?

Anonymous8 said...

It was a nice win but I have to say it was another "tease" by a September starter. This isn't a Strasburg 'kid gloves' treatment, this was another starter who looked good and turned bad quickly. Wang needed to show he could pitch 7 full and could barely make it 5.

I want Wang but I think I want him for the wrong reason like my love for wounded animals.

Sec 3, My Sofa said...

Would have been nice to get through six, but I don't know why seven would be the mark at this point. He's clearly still building back, odd as that sounds after two years.

natsfan1a said...

sjm, okay, you can take one cap. But don't wear it to the dinner table (you can go back to the cabin and look at it if you get really nervous). If you are sitting with the captain's table, try not to yell "Go, NATS!!" at an inopportune moment. :-D

sunderland said...

sjm, keep the tradition alive. Just modify it for you situation. Take 8 caps. There should be times during the day when wearing a cap is acceptable. Then combine this with 1a's suggetion and set out the cap of the day in an appropriate place in your cabin.

NatsLady said...

Wang was quoted (on another blog) as saying he was going to warm up longer to try to avoid problems in the first inning. That might have to do with him being out after 5. Still a work-in-progress. They don't show the postgame on the MLB archive but it's a shame about Wang getting squeezed and good for Rizzo et al., for standing up for him.

Anonymous8 said...

NatsLady, that is interesting what you read on Wang. Someone here (can't remember who) suggested exactly that, he should do a simulated 1st inning and the thought was he may tire out quicker because of that. Makes sense.

Anonymous8 said...

NatsLady, found it from 2 days ago. Once again, Steve M. is spot on predicting the future:

Steve M. said...
There are so many varying opinions on Wang and it seems with these bad 1st innings he has to pitch a simulated 1st inning in the bullpen or indoors to see if that solves his problem. It may lead to a shorter outing, but these 1st inning runs are burying the team early. The bigger issue as was brought up is his last few performances is his 2 seamer is starting to high in the zone. He improved some in the Dodgers game from the Atlanta game but is now 5 straight games without inducing a double play.

To really be effective, Wang has to be 2:1 Ground balls:Fly balls and he has only done that once on Aug 9th at Chicago. The Nats are now 3-5 in games Wang starts.

September 12, 2011 10:21 AM

natsfan1a said...

otoh and if memory serves, during last night's tv broadcast, it was noted that Wang does have a rather extensive pregame bullpen regimen.

sjm308 said...

Sunderland - by taking 8 caps I am forecasting doom for our boys by planning for 8 losses. I only change caps after a loss. I have had this years away cap on for the last 3 days and will wear it again today. I am thinking maybe 3 caps, none at dinner (I hate paying for something and then being told how to dress but this is a new experience so I will let that go), and hoping I can get through the 7 games (they have Monday off). Kinda wish I had an old Expos hat to wear as we land in Quebec, Prince Edward Isle and Nova Scotia.

Getting back to what is really important. I am now leaning strongly toward resigning Wang as faux GM.

6 More Wins!!!

go nats

NatsLady said...

Thanks, A8. Checked box score. Wang was 6-3 groundouts-flyouts, so there's your 2:1 ratio. Struck out 4, walked none. (Klaw says Wang will never succeed unless he misses more bats, FWIW.)

"Davey says" he only took him out because he wanted to pinch hit for him (Wang .000 BA so far, and they are walking Ramos intentionally ahead of him.)

Apparently the wild pitch converted an unearned run into an earned run (not sure how the other team "earns" a run by a WP but not a walk but there ya go).

baseballswami said...

I say that since we have to finish the season all in our division , we give them fits so that they have to think about facing us next season during the whole off-season. Win or lose I hope we just annoy the crap out of each and every one of them. We need to show them what it's going to be like next season! GYFNG!!

NatsLady said...

Box score says Evans GIDP, but doesn't say against whom, so if anyone was watching, did Wang induce the doubleplay?

Anonymous8 said...

SJM, 6 more wins? I am hoping for a miraculous 12-3 finish to the season.

Why not dream real big!

Tonight's theme is strutting like a Peacock!

Peacock already has his own theme music from Katy Perry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKE9cyX9VMo&feature=related

NatsLady said...

Swami--ESPECIALLY the f*************************************************************************** fish.

Anonymous8 said...

NatsLady said...
Box score says Evans GIDP, but doesn't say against whom, so if anyone was watching, did Wang induce the doubleplay?

September 14, 2011 8:23 AM

Yes, it was classic Wang when he needed it.

Anonymous8 said...

NatsLady said...
Thanks, A8. Checked box score. Wang was 6-3 groundouts-flyouts, so there's your 2:1 ratio. Struck out 4, walked none. (Klaw says Wang will never succeed unless he misses more bats, FWIW.)

NatsLady, I can't take credit, I copied over Steve's post from a couple days ago.

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