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| Associated Press |
Speaking with members of the Baseball Writers' Association of America at his annual All-Star lunch, Selig expressed optimism that some arrangement will be worked out between the two dueling franchises but gave no concrete reason why he believes it will happen.
"I've spent a lot of time talking to both clubs, even very, very recently," Selig said. "And we continue to do that, and hope we'll have some type of resolution. We'll continue to work with that. It really is a difficult situation, but I'm always hopeful we can work out a resolution, and we are working on that right now."
The ongoing dispute stems from a provision in the Nationals' contract with MASN (the majority of which is owned by the Orioles) that allows them to renegotiate their annual rights fee every five years. The renegotiating period took place prior to the 2012 season, but the two sides were unable to agree to a monetary figure.
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68 comments:
Bud is indicating to us how many more deadlines he will set on this
Just unacceptable. So the O's can just keep delaying and con't to pay fees in the $30 millions. Why would the O's want any outcome, when it will be much more than they are paying now, regardless of the outcome?
Selig should set a rights fee right now ($75M to $125M) and then true it up when the situation is resolved. Why would the O'd do anything rather than delay...
Another reminder that the Baltimore Orioles, not the Phillies or Braves, are the true enemies of the Washington Nationals and their fans.
It's one thing to try to best our team on the field; it's quite another to try to take away our ability to compete on even financial footing via a corrupt payoff deal (after you spent years opposing our very existence).
And now they're in direct competition with us for our first All Star Game. As if stealing tens of millions of dollars from the organization and years of baseball from DC fans wasn't enough.
Bud is a tool. Last year, when pressed on this dispute at the ASG, he said that disputes between clubs are common, and "that's why we have a commissioner." It's a year later now--no resolution, no action by Selig.
That's why baseball needs a commissioner other than *you*, Bud.
in general, I feel Selig has done a good job, no strike, cleaning up PEDs. But it is really EASY to hate this guy. Make a decision--on this and the San Jose issue!
Nats Lady
I give him no credit for acting vs PEDs. The explosion in PEDs came on his watch, and he turned a blind eye to it because it was good for the bottom line. He finally acted only when Congress made noises about getting involved and called him to testify, in 2005.
I DO NOT understand the Orioles' side of this AT ALL. The Lerners are good owners. Maybe there were some hiccups at the beginning, but they have now shown themselves to be fair, spend $$, support the team, stay out of Rizzo's way, etc. They NEED to made a return on their investment and SO DO WE!!! The neighborhood around the stadium is getting built up. You want crap owners, Selig--fine, drive ownerships like the Lerners out.
hh, I think you are partly right. Also, Selig has an eye to his "legacy." His PERSONAL legacy. He is not good with the difficult financial decisions--e.g., the MASN situation and San Jose.
This stalling is just unacceptable!! Maybe at some point the fan base will need to start making some noise.
Correctomundo hiramhover!
You'd think for $18 million per year salary, the former used car dealer from cheese head land could ressolve this issue.
Interesting stuff about over-paid CEO's, like Selig, they like to assume their over-blown salaries, up until they have to make a decision.
True to the Peter Principle, Bud exceeded his level of comptence once he stopped selling used cars!
swami-- get real. The "fan base" barely knows and doesn't care. Now, the fan base in the Bay Area--they are TRULY getting shafted, WAY worse that the Nats.
Selig is a tool and a punk... Seriously... and Angelos is just scum...
Swami - At 1 point, I stopped watching the Nats on tv and listened to C and D... But it got harder becuz I like to see the action...
Bud Selig thinks this is a minor matter that will go away--a "dispute between clubs." Well, it won't. And then to say that about the All Star Game. That is just WRONG.
MrsB, yep on Angelos. Selig is a tool. love the photo of Selig holding up 10 fingers.
Its just a crying shame that the Nats are in this type of deal... Its highway robbery...
At this point, I would be fine with seeing them on CSN... I just hope they can take FP and Bob (I like the both of them personally)...
Agree that the As are getting hosed even worse, NatsLady.
I don't like Angelos, but his motives aren't complicated--he's trying to grab as much $$$ as he can. Same with SF blocking the As move.
Selig has never been a forceful commissioner, and he's only getting weaker as he fades into his Depends dotage. And baseball is stuck with him thru the end of the 2014 season.
That's a clown commissioner, bro.
The deal itself paints them into this corner, unavoidably.
It treats the B-W area as one market, the two teams as one product, and splits the proceeds 50-50 between them. But then it gives them an option to re-negotiate the amount they would get if they were separate. You can't have both.
This is old news by now, but WTH, there's no game til tonight.
Good point. (Picks up pitchfork and torch.) Anybody got a light?
This is old news by now, but WTH, there's no game til tonight.
And another thing...
I must have missed the wave portion of the festivities last night. Oh, my.
It starts with a few fans- we have more than a few here. At some point, with social media- who knows? If the Nats get back to winning and the O's become a true rival then something will have to give. Must be national cynics day.
No disrepect to Mark, Chase and the other scribes in attendance at this press conference, but I could have written this article last week, month or year....
No matter how much "pressing" of this issue went on, I knew that Selig was going to give a bunch of BS, milquetoast, politically correct responses that shed absolutely NO light on when, or if, a resolution will be made on this.
IMO, The Lerners need to take the bull by the horns and press on through the legal system. Maybe even call in a few favors on Capitol Hill that will threaten the long outdated anti-trust exemption that baseball has.
Selig will do NOTHING on this matter as long as he is in charge, so we should stop waiting for Mark and his fellow scribes to waste their time getting anything from this used car salesman and his henchman in Baltimore...
This is old news, stupid news, who gives a crap news. Any little bit of additional revenue isn't going to mean anything toward a better team. This is all just idiotic. Do the Yankees big salaries guarantee anything? No. They still get injuries too. We see all the games on TV. After that, I don't get any benefit from any of the Nationals revenue. You will still get opinionated sportscasters. And no matter who does the shows, you all will still agree and disagree with them. So, you can try to justify a "good tv contract", but then it still means nothing. Nothing at all.
Well, ok then, thanks for sharing.
I am livid with Angelos and Selig. I'm not rich, but I would contribute a hundred bucks to a legal fund for the Lerners to sue Angelos and MLB. I think the Lerners should be paid interest on the money withheld and owed to the Nats. Maybe having to pay interest would encourage Angelos to reach settlement.
NatsLady said...
I DO NOT understand the Orioles' side of this AT ALL.
You don't? Sure you do. Three simple characters: $$$
And what's taking so long? That's simple, too: Selig = spine of rubber
TimDz said...
No disrepect to Mark, Chase and the other scribes in attendance at this press conference, but I could have written this article last week, month or year....
No disrespect to you, TimDz, but I'd bet they *did* write this article last year. And probably published it, too.
Let's see -- how many years of broken promises until DC got a team? Think we can get a deal done in a bit less time than that?
Sheesh.
I agree that it's time for the Lerners to gather some of their considerable clout and stop being patient and playing nice.
To the Lerners credit, despite one of the worst TV deals in the MLB, they've been willing to spend their own money. The Nats payroll is over $100 million and will continue to grow.
Selig will do NOTHING on this matter as long as he is in charge, so we should stop waiting for Mark and his fellow scribes to waste their time getting anything from this used car salesman and his henchman in Baltimore...
I'm not clear on what you are proposing we do instead of "waiting for Mark and his fellow scribes"?
Selig's handling of the Expo situation finished me. He is totally self-serving and is only a salesman at heart.
Selig's handling of the Expo situation finished me. He is totally self-serving and is only a salesman at heart.
Oh, and you think it's a coincidence that the shuttle bus carrying the media to the game got stuck because the driver's EZ Pass didn't work?
Do not meddle in the affairs of Commissioners, for they are subtle and quick to anger.
To give the Devil his due, if I were Angelos, I wouldn't do a thing differently. Why should he? He has the best part of the deal, the Nats can't force him to negotiate in good faith, and Selig won't use the power of the commissioner to force a resolution.
So what do you do when your negotiating partner won't negotiate in good faith? Answer - stop playing by the rules.
Here's a start: Remember when the Nats essentially told the busloads of Phillies fans to take a hike, by refusing to sell group tickets to certain ZIP codes? How about the Nats do the same thing to Baltimore? Find out where the dividing line is between majority Nats fans territory and Baltimore fans territory, and refuse to sell any tickets to the Baltimore territories during Nats-Orioles interleague games until the games are 95% sold out. Once the 95% threshold has been reached, sell to those ZIP codes only as individual tickets - i.e., you can buy only one ticket per credit card.
While this won't hurt Angelos's bottom line - he'll still get the visiting team's share of the gate - it will piss off the Baltimore fans, to which the Lerners reply, "Yeah, sucks to be you. Talk to your team's owner."
And as someone else here said, there's always the threat of actual legal action. IANAL, but when a contract expires, and one of the negotiators refuses to deal in good faith, don't the terms of the contract expire at some point? Why not enter into serious negotiations with Comcast, and if Angelos squawks, tell him, "Go piss up a rope and sue us if you don't like it - you're a lawyer, you know how to sue, don't you?"
Play dirty.
Chase Hughes @chasehughesCSN 3m
Former #Nats GM Jim Bowden is here at Citi Field towing around a bag with a Curly W on it.
Well isnt' that just special...
This situation hasn't moved an inch from this time last year so this isn't even on Bud's stove top. He'll pass it along to the next commish. I also haven't heard anything from the Nats brass trying to press for a resolution so I'm not going to lose any sleep over it if Lerner's just going to wait it out.
That's a good picture at the top, I guess. The next one is a lot more interesting, and explains a great deal.
That's true, Candide. And while the original deal is unbelievably shady and probably illegal in any other business, you can't really fault Angelos too much for taking advantage of his position to extort baseball and the franchise to get it. The fault lies more with Major League Baseball for letting him get away with it and for bargaining away a franchise's TV rights before it existed.
However, that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't hate Angelos and his franchise. The bottom line is that they still kept us from having baseball, and they're still taking money from our franchise that keeps us from competing on a level playing field under a deal they negotiated before we even existed. That other sleazy businessmen allowed him to do it and probably would have behaved the same way in his shoes doesn't make Angelos and his team less deserving of our scorn.
NatsLady said...
I DO NOT understand the Orioles' side of this AT ALL. The Lerners are good owners. Maybe there were some hiccups at the beginning, but they have now shown themselves to be fair, spend $$, support the team, stay out of Rizzo's way, etc. They NEED to made a return on their investment and SO DO WE!!! The neighborhood around the stadium is getting built up. You want crap owners, Selig--fine, drive ownerships like the Lerners out.
Me: The O's side is simple. There is a clause in the MASN deal that says the Nats have to be paid at least as much as the Nationals. So their view is that if the Ntaionals deal is worth $100M/per that MASN's revenues can't pay the $200M needed. Now that is not really our concern, but that is their side. The agreement doesn't say their revunue need to support the new payment.
Teams don't share gate receipts any longer. You could boycott the O's/Nats games when they are in Ballmer
Opps: I said"There is a clause in the MASN deal that says the Nats have to be paid at least as much as the Nationals"
but I meant this "There is a clause in the MASN deal that says the O's have to be paid at least as much as the Nationals?
Sec 1 D.
That last comment was me voicing my frustration that no matter what Mark et. al try to do to press Selig about true resolution, it will be like squeezing blood from a rock.
DC Wonk...no disrespect taken...I am sure they did write it, as well as published it...Like I said, this seems to be an act of futility and we are all powerless...
The only Power may lie with the Lerner family, who are getting screwed out of MILLIONS....while they are billionaires, nobody likes getting screwed over...I am hoping that one day soon they decide to put their foot down and take some sort of action...going after the anti-trust exemption is a good first step...
This is very interesting, and leaves some important questions unanswered:
1. Did the Nationals get anything for 2012? E.g. are they getting the same crap $29M or are they getting Zero.
2. What incentive does Baltimore have to ever agree if the answer to Q #1 is zero.
3. Are the Lerner's failing to agree to a lesser ammount, to force a future legal case?
This is known as SOSDD and if you expected anything different from Selig you aren't living in reality.
MurrayTheRed said...
This is very interesting, and leaves some important questions unanswered:
1. Did the Nationals get anything for 2012? E.g. are they getting the same crap $29M or are they getting Zero.
Me (A:): They are getting about $36M this year, based on a formula in the orginial deal.
2. What incentive does Baltimore have to ever agree if the answer to Q #1 is zero.
Me (A:): Well, it suppose to be trued up to two years ago when a new amount is agreed on. In addition, the risk is another team signs a deal similar to the Dodgers which could drive the price higher.
3. Are the Lerner's failing to agree to a lesser ammount, to force a future legal case?
Me (A:): Maybe. They both think they are right. Since baseball wants them to agree (and they can't) and the re-set is now in years (not months), a lagal case I'm sure is being considered.
Ultimately the only way out of this mess is for the Nats' ownership group to buy out the MASN contract arrangement. It will be expensive, but if the O's -- read Peter Angelos -- won't honor the contract and MLB -- read Bud Selig -- won't enforce it, that's the only way forward, apart from litigation. And you can be (almost) certain that the Lerner family won't engage in legal action against MLB.
The bright side is that any resolution will be retroactive and cumulative no matter how long it takes. I'm sure MASN has established a non-disbursed fund for when this is resolved as this could be $50 to $80 million a year from last year forward.
"There is a clause in the MASN deal that says the O's have to be paid at least as much as the Nationals"
Who negotiated the contract between Baltimore and MASN? If your an independent MASN executive - granted this is a hypothetical being as MASN is run by Angelos and therefore all executives are not independent from Angelos - would you ever agree to such a clause knowing the Baltimore network is much smaller than the DC network and knowing that DC's demand for Oriole's baseball would curtail significantly with the introduction of the Nats?
Seems like Angelos did not act in MASN's best interest when setting up this deal. Is that legal? (I don't know) Also seems like this was an intentional poison pill clause.
The financial viability of MASN because of a poor contract they signed with the O's shouldn't be the Nats problem.
Hmm. The "Nationals/MASN dispute remains unresolved" seems to be moving into the same category as "Jimmy Hoffa still dead." Every once in a while there's some discussion of the subject, but nothing really changes.
And I love the choice of photo.
ArVAFan
Joe - great points. The MASN deal was orginially negotiated between the O's and MLB.
Joe Schmoe, very good points about the poison pill. He created a clause that immediately would create a large disparity since TV revenue is always based on market size and demographics as their main components and there is a sizeable divide.
That clause never should have been allowed.
OPACY should never get to host another ASG until the eyesore of a hotel that fouls the skyline on the north side of the stadium is either removed or covered with a red brick facade (yes, it was built by the City of Baltimore, proving that some people just can't have nice things), and the dimensions of the field are expanded to something larger than a HS baseball field.
And this is why - despite being the team of Brooks, Cal, Earl, and the new guys like Wieters and Adam Jons (whom I like)- I WILL Never darken the door of OPACY or root for the O's in any way shape or form. I would rather root for the Red Sox or (gasp) the Yankees than the team that is Owned by the Two Bit Scumbag Lawyer
One very good reason from the Oreo side is that MASN doesn't generate nearly enuf revenue to be able to afford the sort of rights fee to which the Nats by all rights should be entitled. I, frankly, don't know how to resolve that situation except by selling the network to an experienced sports programmer that knows how to fix (and augment)the programming and market the upgraded service.
Candide said there's nothing that can be done if Angelos refuses to negotiate in good faith. Under the common law, every contract is subject to an implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing. It's not the strongest reed in the marsh but it's a reed and would fully justify commencing a lawsuit. The deal is worth enough to the Nats to incur the millions of dollars in fees that would be charged, and they can hire lawyers that are just as nasty and probably better than the ones Angelos can bring to the table. Look at Wilpon, et al, and you can envision litigation threatening the ruin of the Orioles franchise. This is the last outcome Selig wants and might motivate him to knock heads.
An alternative ground for litigation would be basic corporate/partnership law which in almost every state provides a judicial path to resolve impasses between partners/shareholders. I have no what exactly what the MASN agreement provides but the only way of avoiding a judicial resolution if the partners/joint venturers were, for example, GM and Ford, would be an agreement to arbitrate -- which I don't think this is, and in any event there hasn't been any arbitration.
That's what Alex in VA would agree is "taking the gloves off.
Fangraphs is running a series where they analyze trade value for a player. not saying they're likely to be traded, just analyzing them. Desmond came in at 34th most valuable. Here's what they said about him:
Since the start of last season, Desmond has racked up +8.4 WAR, nearly three wins better than the next best shortstop; only Robinson Cano and Mike Trout have larger leads over their closest competition during that span. His error problem has basically disappeared, allowing him to solidify himself as a true shortstop, and he’s settled in as a 125 wRC+ hitter thanks to his power. His approach at the plate could use some work, but really, that’s nitpicking at a position where there aren’t any perfect players.
The downside here is the contract status, and Desmond is headed for his second round of arbitration and will be a free agent after the next two years are up. Given his recent success and the lack of quality shortstops, he’s in line for a significant payday. But, he’s just 27 now, so anyone acquiring him might still have time to get him signed to a long term deal that keeps him away from his mid-30s, and his spotty performance earlier might prove to keep his price reasonable. Still, without that kind of long term control, it’s difficult to place him any higher than this.
But during the next two years and change that the Nationals hold his rights, Desmond seems likely to be one of baseball’s most valuable pieces. A durable shortstop who can hit, and whose salaries are held down by the arbitration process, is a big time building block.
How can you tell when Bud Selig or Peter Angelos are lying?
Are there lips moving.
They need for MASN to be sold to Comcast andd allow the Nats to renegotiate.
" I have no what exactly what the MASN agreement provides but the only way of avoiding a judicial resolution if the partners/joint venturers were, for example, GM and Ford, would be an agreement to arbitrate -- which I don't think this is, and in any event there hasn't been any arbitration."
Yes there has. A panel of three owners of other teams, empaneled by Selig. They arbitrated, and apparently whatever conclusion they came up with didn't work, so the buck was passed back to Selig.
David
Thanks for posting that info re: Desmond.
Do you--or does anyone else--know if there has been any public talk about the Nats extending him and buying out his arb eligible years? I don't remember hearing it, if so.
PS - In that same series, fangraphs also had some nice things to say about Rendon. They rated him #44, but said that in a year if he keeps it up and stays healthy, he could be top 10.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2013-trade-value-45-41/
What the Nats really need is to marshal political support in congress. The MASN deal strikes me as anti-competitive. But baseball as an exemption. But not if congress gets rid of it. So get some big time senators etc on your side to lean on baseball to let the Nats have a fair shake.
Quietly and out of the public eye, the Lerner's need to do all they can to gt as favorable a resolution as they can. Since TV revenue isn't shared in MLB. It is the number one revenue stream and indicator of sustained competitiveness. Rabbit34 above says this doesn't matter. It does. More than we know. The Yankees have only missed the playoffs twice since 1995 and it is a direct result of having much more tv revenue than any other team. Red Sox staying competitive is for the same reason. Dodgers will, too as will Texas. A commenter on can site asked what has changed since 2004? Everything. Average rights fees are up about 200% since then. A fair deal will give the Nats at least $125M given their market size. Angelos claim of territory has never been legally challenged and is likely a restraint of trade. This alone should mean the end of baseballs anti trust exemption. The impasse is an outrage and a slap in the face to all nationals fans and baseball fans.
Just saw Jordan at the end of ABC World News Tonight! And he talked! Soft news story about a guy that gets thousands of foul balls and asks for them in lots of languages. I was shocked that it was Jordan- anyone know if we can get a link to a clip or something?
The Nats and Desmond have both said they want to get something done long-term. Per NBC Sports:
"Nationals general manager Mike Rizzo was quoted by Amanda Comak in the Washington Times and, from the sounds of it, Ian Desmond is in line for a contract extension:
“We don’t discuss negotiations with players and that type of thing,” Rizzo said. “But we feel Ian is one of our leaders. He’s one of the guys that is our core players and he’s a guy we’d like to be with the Nationals for a long time.”
Publicly, in the past, Desmond and the Nationals have shared a view on a possible contract extension. They are open to the idea, but see no need for urgency. As Desmond said early in spring training: “I have no intention of going anywhere. I don’t think they have any intention of moving me. I don’t see what the urgency is.”
Desmond, to me, has seemed like a guy who genuinely loves DC and wants to stay. I think he'll sign an extension, assuming it's fair.
JZimm on the other hand, I am convinced is going to play hardball. Nothing against him at all, but given that he was ready to take Rizzo to arbitration, I think he'll demand he paid what he's worth (which is completely his right) and he'll get some SERIOUS offers on the market. It'll be tough to lock him up before free agency, I think.
We are on the same page, Unknown.
Theo said:
Under the common law, every contract is subject to an implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing. It's not the strongest reed in the marsh but it's a reed and would fully justify commencing a lawsuit. The deal is worth enough to the Nats to incur the millions of dollars in fees that would be charged, and they can hire lawyers that are just as nasty and probably better than the ones Angelos can bring to the table. Look at Wilpon, et al, and you can envision litigation threatening the ruin of the Orioles franchise. This is the last outcome Selig wants and might motivate him to knock heads.
-----------------------
This is what's going through my mind... It seems to me that it could be argued that the MASN deal was "negotiated" by a disinterested party, from the Nats point of view. MLB cannot argue that they had the best interests of the Expos/Nats at heart, when striking this deal. That's negotiating in bad faith, and, were I the Learners, I would make a generous offer to buy out The Dick, and threaten legal action otherwise. Eff that clown... And Selig, too...
Theophilus T. S. said...Candide said there's nothing that can be done if Angelos refuses to negotiate in good faith. Under the common law, every contract is subject to an implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing. It's not the strongest reed in the marsh but it's a reed and would fully justify commencing a lawsuit.
And that is why I said IANAL... :-)
Get Your Re(n)d On said...
" I have no what exactly what the MASN agreement provides but the only way of avoiding a judicial resolution if the partners/joint venturers were, for example, GM and Ford, would be an agreement to arbitrate -- which I don't think this is, and in any event there hasn't been any arbitration."
Yes there has. A panel of three owners of other teams, empaneled by Selig. They arbitrated, and apparently whatever conclusion they came up with didn't work, so the buck was passed back to Selig.
Me: The panel of three owners recommended a sale of the network, where the O's would get the bigger dollars up from (because of the larger ownership in MASN) and the Nats would still get a little chunk, but a market based rate. Selig got Fix Sports interested and then Angelos said he wasn't interested in selling.
That's what you call an impass.
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