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| Associated Press |
"I really like the way we took BP today," Johnson said. "We were real aggressive in BP, and we took it into the game. It was great."
Wait, how do would one even attempt to not be aggressive in batting practice?
"There's a big difference," Johnson insisted. "Sometimes we come into batting practice and we look like we try to hit everything to right field. Today we were hitting everything on the rooftops in left. We knew who was out there, and we knew he was gonna come in on us, throw the fastball and come at us. The guys approached him that way, and that was a great way to approach him."
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126 comments:
Now Davey wants us to be aggressive in BP. We may be the only MLB team to swing at pitches in the dirt in BP.
Honestly, no wonder he stuck with Espinosa for so long.
Well played. After watching that HR derby against Lee, you wonder what happened against Lannan. Oh, well. This one makes up for that one.
Haren and Detwiler. Two guys trying to limp to the finish line with chronic, recurring injuries, with only Ohlendorf and an innings limited rookie in the hole. At least one of those four guys has got to start winning. Haren is probably the best bet. When Matheus comes back they can shut the kid down and give the ball to Ohlendorf. Or Detwiler. Ifs and maybes for the rest of the season, there.
But the big horses are all running now. All of them, both in the rotation and at the plate. They can win this thing, regardless.
Good Lord, that Rendon kid can play baseball.
I've felt that Davey's aggressive approach might be why the offense has been so poor at times. Or maybe being aggressive has the same meaning to the players as my golf pro telling me I need more lag in my downswing. What the heck is lag or how does one create it?
I am very pleased with the win but I think hitting is still a problem. In the top of the 9th we did not score any runs when we had the bases loaded with one out. We struck out. Until we can begin to take advantage of these situations we will continue to limp along.
I continue to watch Span and Revere. We took the wrong guy. We could have had Reverre for less than what for Span. Until Span stops pulling everthing he should be benched . There should be consequences for poor play. This guy is not a leadoff hitter. He is another Benadina except smaller.
Everythin' gonna be alright this mornin'
Oh yeah
Now when I was a young boy, at the age of 5
My mother said I was gonna be the greatest man alive
agree with m
first off, a great win overall. it is good to critique after a win rather than a loss so here is what is concerning and it goes to the larger point of the team's batting approach. however, lets begin with the positive....Gio, Clip and Soriano Outstanding!! Gio was something in the 5th... a few months ago he would have let the lousy HP umpire get the best of him, now, Gio keeps his emotions in check and shows why he is in my view an All star pitcher. I would show that 5th inning at any pitching clinic.
Now, here is the concern I have with the batting approach and my case and point your shown in one game....4 runs were all on homers, that is of course fantastic but what is not good is when Harp and Zim strikeout with bases loaded. It seems as if it is homerun or bust. that is and should be a concern.
overall, a huge win and chance to put together a little streak before the break and be a few games back of Braves and WC...oh and Rendon is something!
m:
I agree on Revere vs. Span, based on 2013 stats:
Revere--.302BA/.336OBP/.687OPS
Span--.260BA/,314OBP/.668OPS
If you look at career stats, Revere is slightly ahead of his "norm"(over 4 yrs.), while Span is below his 6-yr. average:
Revere--.284/.323/.653
Span--.281/.352/.736
Rizzo has coveted Span for a long time, so I'm not sure Revere got much consideration.
Which of these lefties do we need to worry about (July stats):
.235/.279/.337
.222/.333/.333
#1 is Span. #2 is Harper.
All Davey is saying is to swing at fastball strikes rather always taking two or three pitches and getting behind in the count. Lee throws an awful lot of strikes and that was certainly true last night so waiting around only gets you harder pitches to hit.
OTOH, Lannan's M.O. is to nibble, he'll generally get himself into deep counts if you're patient, so you don't necessarily want to swing at the low sinker which is "his" pitch right away, since he'll often have to use more of the plate later in the at bat to get a strike. The approach going in might be different.
Span is a much better hitter than Revere. You can't go by the numbers right after a guy slumps. He'll probably have another hot streak to get back to 280-290 and things will even out.
Actually, most of Span's problem seems to be his numbers vs. LH pitching. I suspect that will either improve back to his historic level, or he'll get a few more days off against them.
I think we need to give Span some time to learn the league. Once he has seen all the pitching, the NLEast a few times, his hitting and stealing should be fine. Big, big change for him. It often takes players a season to adjust.
Here's a couple of weird stats from last night:
--We were 0-for-11 with RISP
--Cliff Lee threw 76 pitches, 64 for strikes!
(and another 4 would have been strikes if they had made it to home plate)
mick said...
Now, here is the concern I have with the batting approach and my case and point your shown in one game....4 runs were all on homers, that is of course fantastic but what is not good is when Harp and Zim strikeout with bases loaded. It seems as if it is homerun or bust. that is and should be a concern.
July 11, 2013 7:25 AM
I've been concerned with the swinging from the heels also, mick. But when I think of each individual hitter, now that Espinosa is gone, Desmond is the only one I can think of who comes out of his spikes swinging and he is batting over .280 and his avg is climbing. Harper has always swung hard, but he has the incredible balance in his swing to pull it off. Zim usually doesn't overswing, nor any of the other batters that I can think of. So I just don't know what to think about their approach. I guess I don't like to see them swing for a home run on all three strikes when there are ducks on the pond and all is needed is a good ole single to drive in the runners.
blovy8, I liked your explaination of Davey's hitting approach.
Well said Nats Jack. Watching Revere reminds me of a faster Lastings in the outfield. How many CFers run such poor routines in the bigs?
Well said Nats Jack. Watching Revere reminds me of a faster Lastings in the outfield. How many CFers run such poor routines in the bigs?
"Case IN point."
And women don't get *wooly--they get weary. And she's wearing a dress.
I hate it when people get the words wrong.
This game's hitting was on Davey and Eck. Davey even said in interviews before the game that Lee throws lots of strikes and he wanted to see his hitters be aggressive (which many of us have explained means: swing at strikes before you get behind in the count). They all knew that Lee likes to "go after" hitters.
And sure enough, as Fast Eddie noted: Lee threw 64 of 76 pitches for strikes (an astounding rate). You gotta swing at those, lest you fall behind in the count immediately.
Many here seem to be confused. "Be aggressive" doesn't mean swing at pitches you can't hit or can't hit well. "Be aggressive" means swinging at good pitches early in the count, even if it's the first pitch.
Toys-day's Tidbits:
Matt Cain last two starts combined: 3 IP, 8 H, 11 R, 7 BB, BAA .471; Lincecum is 4-9; Vogelsong ERA is 7.19; and that helps explain why the Giants have a worse record than the Cubs.
Cliff Lee: 9 games before last night: 68 IP, 4HR
Cliff Lee: last night: 7 IP, 4 HR
Justin Upton: April 12 HR; May+June+July 4 HR
Pitcher Jacob Turner, lifetime BA of .034, hits a standup triple.
For the first time in the history of baseball, the Pirates beat the A's.
Nats went 0-16 with RISP in series against the Phillies
Gio: H/9 IP of 6.826 10th in NL; 144 K's (8th in NL); BAA .207 (best on the Nats)
The lefties--Span, Harper,Laroche-- were 1-for-14 last night. The four homers were hit by right-handers.
In hindsight, I guess that's predictable vs. a LHP.
sonnyG
good points
howver wonk's tid bit:
"Nats went 0-16 with RISP in series against the Phillies" may be what I am trying to get at
This one deserved its own post:
Standings of last 78 games:
Braves: 40-38
Nats: 39-39
Phillies: 39-39
Nats don't have to worry about the Braves. If they can take care of business when in the batter's box, the division title is there for the taking.
While the Philly fans are warming up to Revere at the plate, they can't stand his circuitous routes that somtimes get to balls in the deep gaps.
Span is by far the superior defender.
----/////----
That says it all. The catch Denard made against the wall last night was just a joy to watch. Span's routes are picture book perfect. They are right out of a page of a clinic's book on how to do it. Revere's are more like Lastings Milledge's. Revere and Span are both terrific players in their own way. I do agree that Span has been a disappointment, so far, at getting on base against LHP, but I'm not ready to platoon him with a guy that the Cubs didn't give much playing time. An occasional start, and late inning pinch hit and/or double switch is how I see Hairston's role. I'd love to see more hitting, but not at the expense of sacrificing the OF defense. Every misplayed ball out there means more pitches thrown by your pitcher, ultimately leading to more free bases and more runs scored.
It is also a joy to watch what Jayson Werth has done since returning from the DL. He is really putting up some impressive numbers at the plate.
fast eddie said...
The lefties--Span, Harper,Laroche-- were 1-for-14 last night. The four homers were hit by right-handers.
In hindsight, I guess that's predictable vs. a LHP.
Yes -- except that before the game, lefties were hitting something like .280 against Lee, and righties were hitting something like .210 against him!
Just shows to go you: you can't predict baseball!
Wonk
great post and info from the standpoint that it shows the Phillies may be a team to worry about as well...however it also shows that the Nats record was mostly involved the team without Harper and Ramos, which means the Nats could be in a driver's seat after the break offensively...the key item will be 5th starter, maybe 4th if Det is hurt and of course, middle relief
It is also a joy to watch what Jayson Werth has done since returning from the DL. He is really putting up some impressive numbers at the plate.
Werth in his 33 games since returning from the DL:
6 HR, .322/.400/.525/.925
(there were a few here that kept insisting he was too old, sliding into oblivion, and needed to be on the bench, eh?)
(there were others that castigated Davey and the med staff for playing Werth a few weeks back when he had a slight groin strain)
Another nickname question: If Hairston excels at said bench role, could he be a "big Hairsty chested guy"? Nah. Back to the drawing board...
Joe S. said...
An occasional start, and late inning pinch hit and/or double switch is how I see Hairston's role.
crosscheck12, I might owe you a beer on the Lastings Milledge comment! I was writing as you posted.
mick, I also found the 0-fer with RISP to be a bit alarming.The 1-14 by the LH hitters against Lee wasn't that surprising.Lee's been really bringing it all year, especially against LH batters.
The odds are the photo for this article is a Zimmerman strike-out.
Good Morning All!
great to catch up on things, especially after a win!
Read an interesting piece in the Post. Did you guys realize our #7 batters are hitting a whooping .206 for the year. Of course that is where Danny hit most of the time and also add Bernadina and Lombo when they played. Since Rendon and Ramos have pretty much stabilized the 7 & 8 spots we have hit over .300 in those two spots combined. What a huge difference. I realize both will come down from there but that 7 hole was truly as much an automatic out as the pitcher. Not any more!
Go Nats!!
Wow, I guess I am wrong regarding Lee against LH batters this year.
Rabbit - I get your point but that is obviously not a swing of a missed pitch as he is tracking the ball. I think others have shown that Zimm is having a good year statistically so I will not harp on that. It does hurt to see so many strikeouts though.
sjm, not only him, but all the blurry fans in the picture are looking in the same direction.
Incidentally, I found another blogger's posts yesterday about a fellow poster's supposed death to be disturbing, as I spent all day Tuesday in the hospital with someone near and dear to me who won't be coming home.I guess I'm a little overly sensitive right now, but I find jests about death to be in poor taste.
I don't know Rabbit, seeing as Ryan Zimmerman now leads the team in RBI's....
In fairness, Zimm has had a rough couple of games, even considering last night's dinger.
Zimmerman would have a heck of a lot more RBIs if he didn't strike out umpteen times a game. Anyway, sjm got my point, even if it was a photo of a warm-up swing and the people looking at Zimm.
Does Jordan really have the upside to justify shutting him down this season? He isn't Strasburg, and the goal is to win not to protect certain players. If he is contributing, keep throwing him all season. I would find this completely unacceptable if I was writing the checks.
My sympathies on your situation, JoeS.
Span's catch was tremendous. since the team has been here, he is clearly the best defensive CF they have had
Joe Seamhead
totally agree with you and my prayers are with you and your friend
"I spent all day Tuesday in the hospital with someone near and dear to me who won't be coming home.I guess I'm a little overly sensitive right now, but I find jests about death to be in poor taste."
I spent yesterday processing the fact that a long-ago but once very, very close friend took her life last week...the joke hit me wrong, too.
Sorry to hear of your friend's condition, Joe :(.
Secret wasian man said...
....Personally this team is NOT worth it. GUTLESS underachieving pathetic losers. I'll post back on game 162.
Promise?
(And the Nats weren't even behind when he posted that!)
I wouldn't mind seeing Zim whiff less than he has lately, but still, he's been pretty productive the last few weeks. A grand slam, home runs, a bases clearing double I believe in NY, etc. Seems like he was on a serious tear until the Philly's series started up...
If [Taylor Jordan] is contributing, keep throwing him all season. I would find this completely unacceptable if I was writing the checks.
So would Charles Comiskey, FWIW.
Wonk, you should know you can't believe everything you read on the Interwebz.
But speaking of Danger Boy, I for one am glad he's done a houdini; the bashing he'd be taking would be worse than his bucket of bold if he'd been right. Just as well he's translated himself. I'd love to see us move on to some other, more worthy topic.
I wouldn't mind seeing Zim whiff less than he has lately, but still, he's been pretty productive the last few weeks.
Stats back you up perfectly:
RZ last 15 games: .316/.385/.509/.893, 5 2b, 2 HR, 14 RBI, 7 BB, 13K
Joe Seamhead said...
Incidentally, I found another blogger's posts yesterday about a fellow poster's supposed death to be disturbing, as I spent all day Tuesday in the hospital with someone near and dear to me who won't be coming home.I guess I'm a little overly sensitive right now, but I find jests about death to be in poor taste.
July 11, 2013 9:11 AM
I totally agree especially considering how many people on here are over 60 years old and regardless of age we have all lost loved ones at much younger ages and many suddenly.
Sorry to hear your story Joe. Life is precious.
Very similar to that post last night, I belong to a Forum similar to this and remember the passing of someone a few years ago where the news was broken on the Blog. Some of you may remember him from WaPo. His name was Gary Hong and I think his name was FridgeFan after Ralph Freidgen of MD. It was shocking as one day he stopped posting and several days later another poster saw an obituary. He was a lifelong Senators and Terps fan and adopted the Nats 100%. He used to do a radio show with Phil Wood. Gary was 58 when he passed.
Re: Taylor Jordan. You set a policy and you keep to it, IMO. We don't know Jordan's future, but he should get a chance to fulfill it.
Sec. 3, My Sofa said...
But speaking of...
I gotta say -- our NI crowd was already the best "commenter community" around -- and the last few weeks it's been at an even higher level.
("bucket of bold"?! you crack me up!)
I remember Gary, too; yes, that was a shock. It always is. We are (most of us here, AFAIK) at an age when we experience that shock with increasing frequency, but it's still bad.
"Re: Taylor Jordan. You set a policy and you keep to it, IMO. We don't know Jordan's future, but he should get a chance to fulfill it."
Agreed. Explicitly deciding to risk a kid's entire future for the sake of a baseball season would be quite classless, imo.
Does Jordan really have the upside to justify shutting him down this season? He isn't Strasburg, and the goal is to win not to protect certain players. If he is contributing, keep throwing him all season.
I can't even begin to recount the number of things wrong with that:
a) Frankly, I think it's immoral to just chew-up and spit out players like you're suggesting. We're talking about a player's livelihood here.
And, if you don't like the moral argument, there are practical ones, too:
b) What will other players and player's families and players' agents think about the Nats when they think the that Nats W/L record is more important than the long term health of their players?
c) Taylor Jordan _does_ have potential upside to be a SP for the Nats and/or valuable for a trade.
Joe Seamhead said...
TexNat @ 9:30, the way the Nats are treating their young pitchers is making them a much stronger, respected organization. Sure wouldn't want my son, or my investment in a player if I were an owner, to be chewed up and spit out by callous GM's and managers.
DC Wonk, I agree about this being the best blog community around, and it has been at a much higher level in recent weeks.
Thanks, mick,Eric,Ghost, and natsfan1. It's really a tough time, has been for weeks now.I want to apologize to all if I have been even testier than usual lately.
July 11, 2013 10:08 AM
Sec. 3, most of my friends are in their mid 30s, so it's still fairly uncommon for us to lose someone in our circle. Most losses have resulted from drunk driving and other rather shocking occurrences. The recent suicide was the second of those events.
I am a part of an online GD community that endured the death of one of its members recently. We didn't find out for weeks. It's a very strange way to go through the experience, feeling at once extremely removed and very pained.
Wonk," chew up and spit out" qualify for me owing you one? I had first put it up at 10:08, but edited my post!
Joe, FWIW, I haven't noticed anything resembling testiness coming from you lately.
Davey being Davey. A more aggressive BP led to 2 failed opportunities with bases loaded? Oh, maybe he means 4 solo HRs.
Doubtful. Werth, Rendon and Ramos seem unchanged regardless of the pitcher.
Werth and Rendon have a great 2 strike approach. Rendon hit his HR on a 0-2 count and his double on a 1-2 count. Rendon is now leading the team in 2 strike hitting at .241
Rendon is also slashing .356/ .424/ .610/ 1.034 against LH starters.
The problem last night was not capitalizing with men on base as the Nats were once again awful in RISP 0-9 so not sure what Davey is talking about.
Not only that, just think about young pitchers who probably see the Nationals as the standard bearers for rehabbing TJ surgeries. I think what we have done and are doing will help us down the road with both players and agents
Wonk, I owe you a drink I think.
GD, as in game developers, Eric?
I suspect my impressions of people's ages are skewed by the folks I happen to know, who may not be representative of the regular posters, nevermind the lurkers. And the fact that I am of a certain age, myself. But I'm still in my late 30's in hexadecimal!
Seam head, the day us old guys are NOT testy is when you start worrying. Be well
>GD, as in game developers
Naw...Grateful Dead man! ;)
>But I'm still in my late 30's in hexadecimal!
lol!
NL & Eric,
I share your opinion on Taylor but I didn't post a reply to TexNat because I thought his post was just provocative and thought less.
If you have a ramp up program for young pitchers you follow that program consistently across the board regardless if your name is Strasburg or Jordan.
Naw...Grateful Dead man! ;)
D'oh!!
Again, anyone have opinions on why the official scorer screwed Denard Span on that swinging bunt? Seems to me it was a hit & an error and not a straight error. On Ramos grounder off the mound, I think the same thing. I have to believe it is bias but willing to listen to opinions.
I do get a lot of blank looks if I tell people I'm 3A ("thirty-ay") years old. Except game developers and other techies, who just roll their eyes.
Span's Lefty split this year as tumbled further. It's looking as bad as a pitcher. .146/.212/.167/.378 His defense is so good that you need him on the roster but not in the leadoff. He got 5 ABs last night and none of them went to far in distance. I think if you totalled all 5 of them up they didn't go as far as RZim's HR.
Span has to change his lefty approach or Davey has to change it for him. This is becoming Espinosa all over again by accepting what may not change.
Official scorers show home team bias all the time. Give hits rather than errors when their team is up, the reverse when the visitors are up. It's no big deal, really. It's not like an umpire's call, which can affect the outcome of a game. And official scorer decisions can be changed on appeal for up to several days after the game. Quit obsessing about stuff like this.
As I recall, and I could be remembering this wrong, but I thought at the time the throw beat him to first, but was off; thus the error. If so, that would be a reason, but I haven't gone back to check. On Ramos's, I got nothing. Even if the throw beat him, that's a tough play.
The one thing I can think of is, the Phillies are known to prefer their fielders get errors and the pitchers consequently get UN-earned runs. Was it Morse's hitting streak that got interrupted last year, after the fact?
>I do get a lot of blank looks if I tell people I'm 3A ("thirty-ay") years old. Except game developers and other techies, who just roll their eyes.
Heh. I'm a programmer, but have worked directly with hexadecimal hex values very infrequently...still, I knew what you were getting at ;).
And you have my permission to obsess about it, FWIW.
; )
"He got 5 ABs last night and none of them went to far in distance."
Didn't he fly out to the warning track (or close) in CF?
Regarding the official scorer, I don't know what to say, but the HP ump really has seemed to favor the Phillies this whole series.
A DC Wonk said...
a) Frankly, I think it's immoral to just chew-up and spit out players like you're suggesting. We're talking about a player's livelihood here.
And, if you don't like the moral argument, there are practical ones, too:
b) What will other players and player's families and players' agents think about the Nats when they think the that Nats W/L record is more important than the long term health of their players?
c) Taylor Jordan _does_ have potential upside to be a SP for the Nats and/or valuable for a trade.
July 11, 2013 10:13 AM
NatsJack and I think his limit is 140 innings but I could see them going to 160 but certainly no more. The 140 is based on prior years innings and the increase to be consistent of post-TJ pitchers in the Nats system.
His ultimate value will come when he can develop a 3rd "plus" pitch. His slider isn't good and NatsJack said he used to throw a wicked 12-6 curve that they got him to stop throwing and switch to the slider. If he can't get that 3rd "plus" pitch, you've seen the results. No putaway pitch and getting hit hard as the batters see him after the first go round.
Heh. I'm a programmer, but have worked directly with hexadecimal hex values very infrequently.
Whippersnapper! In MY day, we had to make do with 512 K, and we were happy to have it. Screens were black, with lines of green text on a 9 inch monitor, like g-d intended.
("You had a monitor!? LUXURY! We had to hand-wire magnets to program our core, and print it out on punch cards to see if it worked!")
Eric, Span hit a lazy fly into the outfield and all the rest were 30 to 90 foot grounders with about 5 foot of air drag on them. ;)
Ixnay onway ewingchay upway Ordanjay.
"bucket of bold" -- postlet of the day.
NatsJack and I think his limit is 140 innings but I could see them going to 160 but certainly no more. The 140 is based on prior years innings and the increase to be consistent of post-TJ pitchers in the Nats system.
Didn't he mention the 140-innings limit in his postgame interview the other day, too? I think so.
Didn't he fly out to the warning track (or close) in CF?
Routine fly ball, which he shouldn't be hitting anyway. He's one who should be going the other way, and quit trying to be Davey-aggressive.
But ... it fixed Desmond. So there's that.
"Eric, Span hit a lazy fly into the outfield and all the rest were 30 to 90 foot grounders with about 5 foot of air drag on them. ;)"
I could've sworn he had two fly outs to center: one a shallow, lazy one, the other a surprisingly hard hit one that went to the warning track. Maybe the latter was against Hamels the night before? Either that or I'm thinking of someone else I guess.
Sec. 3, I was well acquainted with the black screens/green font when I was a kid!
"Routine fly ball, which he shouldn't be hitting anyway. He's one who should be going the other way, and quit trying to be Davey-aggressive."
That's another discussion entirely. I guess I was just excited to see him do something other than hit it to Chase freaking Utley for the 19th time in 15 at bats!
Flies to right are an improvement for Span. Every now and then he connects and rockets one into the corner for a triple. Usually his lazy flies are to left.
Sec3, didn't see it but again Rizzo will be consistent. While TJord's future isn't as clear to me as JZim's or Stras because he doesn't have a "plus" breaking ball like they do, I'm still cautiously optimistic because that will be a priority for him.
When you look around at all the failures of the young guns who were brought up this year, Shelby Miller stands out above the rest and he has faded badly as the innings have piled up but so many like Gausman have looked just plain bad.
The fact that a AA pitcher like TJord has looked so good is very encouraging. I can envision him as next year's #5 in this rotation with that potential to pitch like a #3.
btw, Span seems to have two strong approaches: blooping near the line in shallow left and rockets down the line deep to the corner in right. Of course, when he's not hot, the former becomes a pop out to left and the latter a GB to first. When he IS hot, the former is a single and the latter is a stand up double or tripe.
The "ramp up program" for pitchers is an experiment. It has no statistical basis. It might have some logic to it, but applying it to marginal prospects (as opposed to a franchise type player like Strasburg) when you are in a pennant drive is simply unfounded. You are taking it on faith that this is necessary for his development. Again, as an owner, I don't think you can support that sort of thinking when you have a limited opportunity to win.
The idea that asking a pitcher to pitch the whole season is immoral is simply ridiculous. Why don't you ask Jordan what he wants to do? I bet it isn't sit out.
How many other teams adhere to the Nationals' policy? Are they all immoral? Nonsense.
Why'd they pull the plug on TJo's 12-6? To avoid reinjury?
"You are taking it on faith that this is necessary for his development."
No I'm not. I'm taking it on faith that it's a necessary part of rehabbing after surgery.
Eric, you were right, 2 flyballs to CF and 3 grounders by Span.
Eric, fair enough. But it is still taking it on faith. There is no statistical basis for it.
lol @ my "tripe" typo...should've been triple, but it's certainly tripe when it goes straight to 1B ;).
TexNat, with rehab, I'm far more concerned with a medical basis than a statistical one.
Right on GOSM, thanks for checking into it.
The "ramp up program" for pitchers is an experiment. It has no statistical basis.
Small sample size, but I'd say the Nats are 2-2 with JZimm and Stras.
Eric, there is no difference. It's a medical discussion, and my point is that there is no statistical basis (or clinical if you prefer)for the requirement that pitchers be shut down the year after they came back from TJ surgery. It may be that certain doctors think it is a good idea. And they may yet be proven right. But in medicine, as in every other field (if not moreso), you prove a hypothesis through statistically significant trials. If there is any data out there showing that what the Nats have adopted is a necessary requirement, I haven't seen it. And I have read several detailed articles disputing a statistical basis for ramping pitchers up.
There is certainly room for reasonable disagreement on this issue. But the idea that if you don't agree with the Nats approach you are being immoral is silly. And it is well worth asking whether these type of safeguards should be applied to a pitcher that lacks big-time upside when shutting him down could have a real negative impact on your season.
TexNat, I'm curious to see if TJord is shutdown at 140 or they let him closer to 160.
McCatty is doing a lot of side session work with him and the most important thing is his health and next is seeing a progression in his results.
The biggest issue in his games so far has been the sub-par defensive support he is getting. I really want to see a well defensed game to do some more evaluation.
"But in medicine, as in every other field (if not moreso), you prove a hypothesis through statistically significant trials."
You're suggestion is akin to suggesting running uncontrolled clinical trials on humans. If you want a basis for immorality, there's one right there.
What's more, your suggesting that an entity (an MLB franchise) with a significant conflict of interest go against doctor's orders (ostensibly) in order to run said trial.
I'm not suggesting that medical treatments are based on clinical trials (that are statistically significant). That is simply a fact.
The only way to develop a significant medical basis for ceasing to observe innings limits would be to run a clinical trial that establishes such a basis. Running such a trial for medical purposes is subject to countless legal and ethical parameters.
How are you proposing to establish a statistical basis for ignoring medical recommendations without working within that framework, but without violating legal or ethical considerations?
Eric, you understand that the Nats are departing from the status quo here right? These shutdowns are new. Pitchers going a full season a year after they came back from TJ has been going on for years. You seem to have this reversed.
I think Dr. Yocum would be pleased about the handling of the Nats TJ players. I'm curious in the future how other teams will treat their star prospects and Bundy in particular.
Sec. 3, I was well acquainted with the black screens/green font when I was a kid!
A kid?! How did you hear of the Grateful Dead, from your parents? ;-)
TexNat said...
Eric, you understand that the Nats are departing from the status quo here right? These shutdowns are new. Pitchers going a full season a year after they came back from TJ has been going on for years. You seem to have this reversed.
Here we go again. I'm going to repeat the same thing as I did re: JZ's shutdown, and re: Strasburg's shutdown
It's not just the TJ surgery, it's his age!
Jordan is only 24. He's never pitched more than 100 innings in his ML career. Even if he _didn't_ have TJ surgery last year, there's a strong argument, as well as evidence, that his innings count shouldn't be bumped up too high.
Google Verduci effect to find tons of data on this.
(100 innings in a season)
Ha, no Sec. 3, my cousin, who is almost exactly between us in age (I'm 24...in hex ;)) turned me on to them.
I have no problem with shutting down Jordan in the manner J Zim and Stras were...what is the issue here?
Oh, sorry Wonk, I thought that question re how I heard the GD was from Sec. 3...
Out of curiosity, how have TJ recipients fared who were thrown straight back in the fire?
with Giolotto, who is very young, the TJ shutdown will not be factor by the time he is up with the team as he would have already been shut down in AA ball
Eric...i'm a Dead fan too
lol
Dead concert in 88 was also the last time I took a bong hit, lol
Eric said...
... Out of curiosity, how have TJ recipients fared who were thrown straight back in the fire?
But take age into account, too. It might be different for those over age, say, 26 or 27 who've had it.
wasn't Tommy John himself about 31-32 when he had the surgery and Mike Marshall, who ended up being an All star reliever for the Dodgers, I believe was in his 30's when he had TJ surgery...Marshall's was the 2nd such TJ surgery
Right on Wonk...still curious about reinjury rates, etc.
Mick, I didn't see the GD til 93.
What is amazing is that I remember Tommy John with the White Sox (where he began his career), he along with Wilber Wood and Joe Horlen was suppose to bring the Chisox back into contention. John struggled and I always remember the senators hitting the heck out of him in the latte 60's...he seemed washed up by 1970..man, that surgery resurrected his career big time!
know I'm rambling, but I also remember a young rookie with the Chisox named Carlos May...he hit 3 homers verse Senators in one game at Comiskey Park...he was a stud...tragically, he was in the Army reserve (this was during Nam) and one weekend, he accidentally blew most of his right hand off with a grenade. He came back, but was never the same
TexNat,
Whether you agree with this or not The Nats brass has made it team policy based on their studies and the medical advise which they have received. The point is that if they consider this to be prudent for pitcher 'A' then it it's also prudent for pitcher 'B'. Additionally your classification of Taylor Jordan as a fringe prospect is nothing but your opinion.
mick said...
Dead concert in 88 was also the last time I took a bong hit, lol
Wow, must have been some really killer [stuff]!
he accidentally blew most of his right hand off with a grenade.
It was a mortar, and it was "just" his thumb. He later had his toe grafted on in its place, but he was never right after that. Sad story.
Seamy and Eric: holding you close to my heart... I'm "only" 53, but its been a rough year, lost 6 loved ones, at monthly intervals... My black suit has been to the cleaners twice...usually, once every two or three years, whether it needs it or not, is enough.... On the bright side, having lost 30 lbs in the last year, I look damn good in that suit!!!
The comment in question offended me, as well. And for the record, I miss the commenter in question ...(quirky bastard...)
:)
UNKYD:
Bastardo is still around. He's in the Phillies' bullpen.
Actually, I think I saw a post by He Who Was Banished or Vanished on the Nationals Prospects site not long ago.
UnkyD, sorry to hear you've had such a hard year... :(
Sofa thanks for clarification on Carlos May, you are correct
and it was killer stuff ha ha
JD, I agree that they have that policy. And, honestly, I don't have an opinion of Jordan's upside. I actually began my original post on the topic by asking about his upside. My question is more along the lines of, IF he doesn't have huge upside, then does it make sense to apply a Strasburg type of shut down.
My basic point is that the Strasburg shutdown was really an abundance of caution type of approach. I'm not sure, given the current lack of statistical data that shutdowns one year after TJ are necessary, that it should be reflexively applied to all pitchers, regardless of situation, and regardless of long term upside.
Wonk, I'm not trying to relitigate the Strasburg shutdown. I just don't think that that logic should be applied across the board without regard to how badly a pitcher is currently needed and how important the pitcher figures to be to you long term. Life is about risks and how much risk you are willing to tolerate in a given situation. Not every pitcher is the same and not every situation is the same.
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