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| Photo by USA Today Sports Images |
Nationals left-hander Gio Gonzalez has been named in a report by the Miami New Times linking him to Biogensis, a Miami-area clinic alleged to have supplied performance enhancing drugs to Major League Baseball players.
The report has a lengthy investigation citing a group of MLB players as well as other professional athletes and a member of the University of Miami baseball coaching staff. Headlining the allegations are MLB stars Alex Rodriguez, Melky Cabrera, and Nelson Cruz.
Here is the passage on Gonzalez and his specific relation to the clinic as it appears in the Miami New Times:
Gonzalez's name appears five times in Bosch's notebooks, including a specific note in the 2012 book reading, "Order 1.c.1 with Zinc/MIC/... and Aminorip. For Gio and charge $1,000." (Aminorip is a muscle-building protein.)
After the the report surfaced on Tuesday, Gonzalez released a statement on the accusations:
"I've never used performance enhancing drugs of any kind and I never will. I've never met or spoken with Tony Bosch or used any substance provided by him. Anything said to the contrary is a lie."
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144 comments:
I don't think Gio can say this (MLBPA will oppose to it I think) but he should be willing to test anytime any day.
Here's a link to the article:
http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2013-01-31/news/a-rod-and-doping-a-miami-clinic-supplies-drugs-to-sports-biggest-names/full/
There are the relevant paragraphs in a lengthy article (mostly focused on ARod and Melky):
But there are also several prominent professionals in Bosch's records who have never before been linked to steroid use. According to his July 2012 client sheet, Bosch sold $4,000 of product to Nelson Cruz, whom he nicknames "Mohamad." Cruz, the power-hitting Dominican outfielder for the Texas Rangers, has whacked 130 bombs in his eight-year career without any links to performance-enhancing drugs. Until now. Bosch writes in his 2012 book: "Need to call him, go Thur to Texas, take meds from April 5-May 5, will owe him troches and... and will infuse them in May."
There's also the curious case of Gio Gonzalez, the 27-year-old, Hialeah-native, left-handed hurler who won 21 games last year for the Washington Nationals. Gonzalez's name appears five times in Bosch's notebooks, including a specific note in the 2012 book reading, "Order 1.c.1 with Zinc/MIC/... and Aminorip. For Gio and charge $1,000." (Aminorip is a muscle-building protein.)
Gonzalez's father, Max, also appears on Bosch's client lists and is often listed in conjunction with the pitcher. But reached by phone, the Hialeah resident insists his son has had no contact with Bosch.
"My son works very, very hard, and he's as clean as apple pie," the elder Gonzalez says. "I went to Tony because I needed to lose weight. A friend recommended him, and he did great work for me. But that's it. He never met my son. Never. And if I knew he was doing these things with steroids, do you think I'd be dumb enough to go there?"
I'd feel a bit more comfortable about this if Gio just sat down with the press and answered every question until they were done. The twitter statement was pretty broad, but you need to do a bit more if you're going to try to shoot down and deny unconditionally this story. You come to feel like you know the players on your team and Gio, more than perhaps anyone else on the roster, strikes me as the last person who could pull off a deception like this when in the presence of his questioners. Everyone has a right to "lawyer up" and remain silent while the investigations play out, but from the P.R. side of things, Gio would be well served by being an open book, which he usually is. Bottom line is he's got my support until I see solid evidence against him.
I was waiting and hoping Gio would issue a categorical denial, and now he has. The involvement of his father seems unusual. Regardless, the burden of proof is now on any accusers. MLB will have to investigate, given the reputation and client list of that lab and its owner.
That newspaper somehow got hold of the lab's itemized records. Not familiar with the "protein enhancer", whatever that is, or whether it is even a banned substance, or whether MLB even tests for it. Those guys are always dreaming up new ways to beat the testing regimen, though, so MLB will have to determine the nature of the drugs and their effect on performance, if any.
It doesn't look good, but I am suspending judgment until MLB does a thorough investigation.
If MLB is really investigating Gio, anything he says to the press about this can do nothing but hurt him. It doesn't matter what the PR consequences are, all that matters is the outcome of the investigation. Until that outcome is announced, his statement followed by a "no comment" to any press questions about this are all he should be doing. If he wants to mix it up, he can say "let's talk about the game" instead of "no comment."
Let's get to the truth. I'm not willing to give Gio an automatic pass. I don't take statements on face value nor do I condemn on the very limited evidence produced so far. He should agree to blood tests now and over the season. Check out dad's story in detail which should be easy to do. Someone should get deep into the details of this. Then we can decide whether Gio's career is tarnished or not.
On a personal level, I can never accept PEDs in baseball, and I want those guilty of using them identified and punished. Those who do not should get the appreciation they deserve.
Tony,
The "no comment" strategy is true enough, but if as he says, Gio has never taken anything illegal, doesn't know this Bosch character and has never taken anything -- banned or not -- that came from him, either directly or not, then the risk of being caught in an investigator's trap by answering questions is not significant. Having said all that, don't mistake my uninvited suggestion to Gio as a condemnation of him if he chooses your route. Somebody has to prove him guilty and I refuse to presume guilt based on his silence if that's what he chooses.
"I'd feel a bit more comfortable about this if Gio just sat down with the press and answered every question until they were done."
Yeah. I've been thinking he or his agent has been in touch with Rizzo to coordinate a response, maybe with a joint press conference. Not sure Rizzo would want to stick his neck out, publicly, before all the facts are in, but he might be. He certainly has to issue a statement, at least, if not hold a press conference. Sooner or later, he will have to do that, too.
And we all thought nothing much else was going to happen before next month. LOL. First Danny, now this. No rest for the GM, no such thing as an off-season for Mike.
Mike looks for guys with "makeup and character," and he was satisfied with what he saw in Gio. That's speaks well for Gio, too. Rizzo and the franchise obviously have a lot on the line regarding that judgement.
First a completely severed rotator cuff and now this ...
Not an auspicious beginning to Spring Training ..
Shades of Elijah Dukes and Lastings Milledge.
peric did it say Espi's rotator cuff was completely severed? Didn't see that.
I just heard on a 980am update that a former employee said that Gio recieved HGH.
I find it very disconcerting that Gio and his dad flatly deny the charges, yet Gio is specifically mentioned in the notes. Which is a fabrication? One of them has to be, right? Or, maybe Gio or his dad requested drugs for Gio, and then Gio just never went through with it? In any case, the discrepancy looks bad...
Since he claims to be clean, he needs to demand an immediate test and to have the results made public. He and the organization need to stay far out in front do this issue; otherwise, speculation will run rampant. A clean test with publicized results should put the issue to bed.
Laddie Blah Blah said...
The involvement of his father seems unusual.
Me: Not so unusually:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3250456
I said this in the other post, but: I think his explanation will be that his father bought supplements there for him that he did not use. It'd be difficult to prove that, and also difficult to prove that it's not true.
The HGH rumor...jeez, I really hope that's just hearsay. It's a bit odd that every other athlete had more specific information listed in the doctor's notes while his entry just had a non-banned substance listed, though, I'd think, if he's guilty of worse?
Tconstant-
Very interesting link. I would think all the less of him if he involved his family in this as part of a coverup. It would compound the deception, and reveal an intent to deceive from the very beginning.
Daylos -
That would be the course of action of an innocent man. But he does not have to prove his innocence.
Anybody want to make a bet that Ian Desmond's name is listed in the report. There are possibly 20+ names they didn't publish because they lacked 100% proof. That also tells me that what they have on Gio is pretty conclusive.
Erik,
Time may prove you right, but that doesn't mean that now -- at this moment -- you're not pulling this all out of your backside.
Alphabet, cut the crap. Speak about what you know about and not adding names to a secret list.
The substances identified in the notes with Gio are not banned substances.
Someone should point out that Gio hasn't been linked to any outlawed PEDs. None of the things found in the article refer to any substance banned by major league baseball. They're legal supplements.
The issue for Gio is the tie to a clinic that's tied to PEDs. It's certainly not welcome news, but it's a far cry from actual evidence of PED use. It seems unlikely to me that Gio would be suspended unless the MLB investigation reveals something well beyond what the article says.
I just don't want him to turn into we all know you did it... I want Gio to be as clean as can be so that he never has this over his head. If you read this Gio we are all behind you.
Amen, Ghost. Irresponsible to be throwing names out there based on nothing but hunches.
Tcostant said...
I just heard on a 980am update that a former employee said that Gio recieved HGH.
Again, we have no credible evidence. Gio's statement on his Twitter feed speaks his side.
As for twitter denials, A-Rod did the same.
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/29/a-rod-releases-legal-statement-denying-the-miami-new-times-report/
Interesting part there, he states "Mr. Bosch’s patient" being the issue; does that leave the door open that is was another doctor/advisor?
Bowdenball
Found this on the SI site. According to Tom Verducci:
"But the bigger shoe to fall is the one belonging to commissioner Bud Selig. The notebooks of Anthony Bosch are figuratively on his desk at this very moment. The man who in union with the players association has crafted the toughest anti-PED policies in pro sports has the power to suspend the players even without a positive test.
Under section 7.G.2 of the Joint Drug Agreement, the commissioner can rule for disciplinary action against a player for "just cause" in the cases of violations not specifically referenced in the JDA. Prescriptions and records of PED use and purchase fall under the "just cause" umbrella.
In 2009, for instance, Manny Ramirez entered an appeal of a test that showed an elevated level of testosterone. When an investigation of that appeal turned up a prescription from a doctor for a banned substance, Ramirez dropped his appeal and accepted the 50-game suspension. Ramirez was not banned because of the test, which technically was not entered as a positive, but because of the records of his prescription for hCG, a female fertility drug often used to kickstart testosterone production after steroid cycles.
Ramirez's doctor? Pedro Bosch, the father of Anthony Bosch."
Selig seems to have a lot of discretionary authority to act under the CBA, according to Verducci. The commissioner appears to have the authority to presume guilt just on the strength of documentary evidence. A positive test for PEDs is not needed. Heck, even a perceived violation that is not specified in the CBA would be cause for action by the commissioner. I suppose they insisted on that provision to thwart the use of newer drugs not yet specified as PEDs.
It may be that Rizzo is awaiting the commissioner's announcement before he speaks, himself.
Yeah...and Tony Soprano works in waste management. Give me a break. MLB players have access to the best of everything. Do you really think he is going to go to this place to pick up legal substances when he can get everything he needs from the Nationals/A's? Don't you think they have been told about a million times NOT to get supplements of any kind outside of the organization.
My apologies for throwing Desmond's name out there SteveM, but he is from Miami, and he did look like a completely different player last year with a huge increase in power. Just preparing for the worst.
I hear you Ghost, but I think were their is smoke, their is usually fire. Gio could have gotten supplements anywhere, but he chose this place. Reminds me a lot of Tiger Woods and Dr. Galea who he claims was just for blood spinning, when the leader in that feild when to the same college as him and is in the US. I'm sorry, but as I stated earlier, I will expect the worse and hope for the best.
I sure hope I'm wrong, but a twitter statement, doesn't mean much in my book.
Anything Gio says in response to the press can and will be used against him in the press investigation. Anything he doesn't say to the press can and will also be used against him in the press investigation. But it's only the MLB investigation that matters, not the press investigation. Anything he says to the press can and will make it into the MLB investigation, where it can and will be held against him. However, anything he doesn't say to the press will not make it into the MLB investigation, and it therefore can't hurt him. Ergo his best course of action is to make no further comment to the press beyond his current statement, and that is surely what Rizzo, his agent and his lawyers are telling him to do.
The only thing Rizzo should be doing at this point is to say that the matter is under MLB investigation and he'll have no comment on it until the results of that investigation are announced. If Rizzo wants to do his own investigating, that's fine. But he doesn't need to report on it or even tell anyone he's doing it, except for his bosses the Lerners.
Alphabet Soup Erik said...
My apologies for throwing Desmond's name out there SteveM, but he is from Miami, and he did look like a completely different player last year with a huge increase in power. Just preparing for the worst.
Desmond is actually from Sarasota Florida on the Gulf Coast which is actually several hours drive to Miami.
Ryan Braun got away with it by being willing to lie and lie some more. That's the template and it works. I'll never look at Mr. Happy Go Lucky the same. Always smiling, yeah, right. Just another cheater.
LBB-
You are right that the Commissioner's office has plenty of discretion, but I can't fathom disciplinary action for using or taking something that's both legal and not prohibited by MLB rules. The player's union would lose their minds, and so would fans. To my knowledge it would be unprecedented, and in my judgment it would be incredibly unfair and a horrible precedent. Once you allow for suspensions for taking legal supplements, where do you draw the line? Vitamins? Coffee? From a legal and baseball rules standpoint, what Gio supposedly bought from these folks is no different than those things.
I think I can confidently say that there is NO way there's any action taken against Gio unless there's some sort of actual evidence that he took something else.
Tcostant said...
I hear you Ghost, but I think were their is smoke, their is usually fire.
That's one of my favorite sayings and I agree in the words of NatsLady this "stinks" but it is really at this point guilt by association and right now I think its getting sensationalized and over-blown.
Gio now and for ever more because of this article will always now have a magnifying glass on him. Is it fair? Life isn't fair.
Laddie,
This is not a court of law you are talking about. When you re linked to a clinic which is linked to Melky and ARod it's not unreasonable to fear the worst. There may or may not be anything but unless he is clean and credible he will forever be suspected. No one said life is fair.
Ghost,
I think I owe you a beer.
JD said...
No one said life is fair.
JD, read the last 6 words of my post at 1:58
JD in a court of law, both Clements and Bonds were cleared. Who beleives that?
Okay.. Changing topics:
Did anyone do the travel package last year with the Nats to Boston? They just sent out one for the Mets and the degenarate nephew and i were thinking about going. Wanted to know what the scoop is about doing the travel with the Nats.
I don't think Gio can say this (MLBPA will oppose to it I think) but he should be willing to test anytime any day.
Tested for what? Not every substance is reliably detectable forever, and lots of tests can give false positives. "Aminorip" is apparently an OTC collagen supplement, something you could probably get at GNC, or maybe even CVS.
NJ and Ghost,
Even if he lived in Miami that has to be the most reckless, stupidest association I've ever heard.
So now we assume anyone living in the same city as a dirty clinic is a user? c'mon; this completely disqualifies alphabet from being listened to on any topic.
NatsJack - what were they lying about? They were cleared of lying about PED use. Hair spilting.
I'm more of the "Where there's smoke, there's smoke" school, myself. But this is the Internet, so "where they'res smoke, theirs zebras."
It is baffling how many of us don't believe Gio.
FS, it's not that I don't believe Gio. It's that I just don't know what to think. There are various estimates of PED use among players, from 20% up to 30-40%. Even if it's 20%, that's one in five. Maybe the Nats are totally clean--or maybe 5 out of the 25 on the squad are using at any given time.
Chances are it was going to be somebody, sooner or later, and the better the Nats got, the more likely, IMO, because the stakes are higher. I'm talking money--just think how much money was lost by not going further in the playoffs last year.
So it's not just one marginal player trying to cling by his fingernails to his spot, a player that the other guys can basically look past, that's a team wanting the whole ball of wax. When you see an event like NatsFest, so much fun, kids there, players joking, etc., you want that to be real, yet, as an adult, you know it's isn't the full picture. You know there is no Santa Claus..
I don't believe or disbelieve Gio. I want to believe him, though.
We need a pharmacology to define what we are talking about. Seems to me that a shot of cortisone (even an acetominophen tab for a muscle ache) is a performance enhancing drug.
It is really strange Faraz, but the fact remains is that he was NOT i repeat NOT seen buying illegal PEDs as designated by the MLB and unless other evidence gets turned up that says otherwise he cannot be suspended
Faraz and Teddy,
It's not just about the suspension. When you make an intellectual decision whether you believe or not in cases like this there are several bright red flags.
Gio's name pops up in a clinic where the clients are given code names, where other clients include Alex Rodriguez and Melky Cabrera and you are also coming off the best year of your career. My inclination is to assume the worst and I,m not just a huge Nats fan but very specifically a huge Gio fan.
This is why I agree completely with NatsLady that innocent or guilty Gio needs to come clean (not clean like Bonds,Clemens,ARod and Palmeiro) and not in a general sense but very specifically.
I am pretty sure that Gio's representatives and maybe even the Nats may be advising him to keep the lid on it I just don't agree that it's the best advise for Gio long term.
He may have to keep a lid on it because it is an on going investigation, besides MLB, i wonder if any government agency may be involved?
JD that is great wisdom.
+1
Sorry guys. I just plain don't believe anything any ball player says about not taking performance enhancing drugs. Where, oh where, have we heard all this before. It sounds very familiar!!
Looks like we need one more starter!
"I've never used performance enhancing drugs of any kind and I never will. I've never met or spoken with Tony Bosch or used any substance provided by him. Anything said to the contrary is a lie."
That's pretty inclusive, to me. Of course Palmiero said substantially the same thing, so if you want to call Gio a liar, go ahead.
A few things that bother me about this story re: Gio.
1. What incentive does the guy from this lab have to falsify his personal notes?
2. Gio's denial and the odd inclusion of his dad in this process sound just like every other denial that were followed later by apologies or convincing evidence.
I'm not saying Gio is guilty. But, if he's innocent then this is one of the weirdest stories of all time. If he's guilty, it's just another day in sports.
MichelleS,
I don't believe any investigation can stop you from proclaiming your innocence publicly and detailing specifically how you got your name associated with such an outfit. Now; if you are guilty but you think you can beat the charges and avoid suspension then I can see where your lawyers will tell you to avoid saying anything at all.
We found a witch!
There are ways of telling whether she is a witch...
Avar,
It may be a weird story because there are unanswered questions and details that only Gio can fill. If he has a believable explanation and he's telling the truth then he should come out with it as soon as possible.
I totally believe Gio's statement. I am dismissing this unless Gio is later proven to be a lier.
Alphabet Soup Erik said...
Anybody want to make a bet that Ian Desmond's name is listed in the report. There are possibly 20+ names they didn't publish because they lacked 100% proof. That also tells me that what they have on Gio is pretty conclusive.
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Low life. You just earned the auto-scroll past, in perpetuity. That wasn't just a slip of the tongue... I now have more evidence that you are a vicious, thoughtless, irresponsible character assassin, than the article reveals about Gio being a cheater. Opinions, reasoned or otherwise, from any responsible viewpoint, always welcome here, IMHO. Baseless slander...not so much. To me, your retraction was trite, and meaningless. Good day to you, sir!
Like I said earlier, his on-field performance was nothing different from seasons before except control which limited number of walks and yielded more Ks. It is not like he gained miles on his fastball or avoided any injury risk or anything.
"According to the report, Aminorip is a muscle-building protein."
So is the hunk of steak I had for dinner last night.
Trying to be non-judgemental here. I am probably in the minority but nothing these guys do, from Lance Armstrong to Barry Bonds bothers me. It is just not a level playing field and god knows how long it has been going on. I am not going to jump to any conclusions on guilt or innocence. If he is suspended 50 games then we find the next guy and move on until he is back. If he is not suspended then we hope he can deal with the never ending questions that will come in every city he pitches. I am sure Andy Pettit still gets asked and that has been years ago. One thing I find hard to believe though is that some stooge just decided to list Gio's name with all the other known PED users. Hope I am wrong about that but its just difficult to think his name was drawn out of a hat. Also, the stuff you can buy at GNC does not cost $1000. Just because stuff was listed that is not on the MLB banned substance list, do you really think they would list the illegal stuff? Please. Ghost said it best, Life is not Fair (from Princess Bride I think?) and the playing field is not level.
Who said the off-season was quiet?
.
SonnyG10 said...
I totally believe Gio's statement. I am dismissing this unless Gio is later proven to be a lier.
.....................
That would be me, right next to Sonny
What incentive does the guy from this lab have to falsify his personal notes?
I think you meant this as a rhetorical question, but I can think of half a dozen reasons off the top of my head, and I'm not even in that line of work.
Please. Ghost said it best, Life is not Fair (from Princess Bride I think?)
.................
Actually, that can be accurately attributed to my kid sister..... (Badum pissssh!)
Those of you looking for Gio to go on TV or radio and deny this probably have a long wait. I am actually surprised he came out with the strong statement he did make. A very wise Athletic Director I once worked for said it well. No matter what you say to the press, they already have the story written in their mind. They will turn what you say into whatever they want to convince their writers. Its best just to say nothing at all.
Moe interesting stuff. MLB found out about this place while looking into Melky Cabrera attempt to cover up his drug use last year...
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/30/sports/baseball/report-links-rodriguez-and-others-to-clinic-and-peds.html?hp&_r=2&
SteveJM, it's not a level playing field but MLB and the MLBPA appear to be committed now to making it an even playing field.
God given talent and hard work is what should count.
And yes, there are cheaters out there who haven't been caught but give it time.
UnkyD - I think we all want to believe Gio! Hell, I wanted to believe Lance, I wanted to believe Palmerio, the list just keeps getting longer. But Gio really doesn't make sense. Like others have said, his body type didn't change, his velocity didn't spike, he actually pitched fewer innings then in several of his seasons. This is just wierd.
If Gio was a starter for the Braves we would be lighting him on fire in here. There are lots of red flags here, and while I hope Gio is telling the truth and really like the guy if he was on any other team I'd dismiss all his statements as self serving BS. Maybe that's because I'm jaded and believe where there is smoke there is fire, maybe its because you've seen everyone else just deny and hope for the best (see Braun, R.) or flat out lie.
I endorse what Tony said at 1:50: I think the best thing Gio can do for the time being is keep his mouth shut. I don't see how anything he says can do anything but provide material for others to use against him. It's frustrating not to have a clear "I didn't do it," but as so many others have pointed out, that kinds of statement doesn't really do the job.
I also share the confusion about what exactly constitutes a PED. As I understand from your comments, the two substances mentioned in th report are legal, but the worry is that he might have taken something that's illegal, and that would be cheating.
But where's the dividing line, other than an arbitrarily-defined definition? Cortisone is a steroid, but not proscribed by MLB, so Zimmy's cortisone shot last season saved his season, perhaps, but didn't get him suspended.
I'm a bit reluctant to use the word "cheater" in these instances e cause of this lack of clarity. And I mean with respect not only to Gio, but also to Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, McGwire, and all the others.
Ghost - I agree that of all the professional sports, Baseball has taken the strongest stance on this. I just think there are smarter doctors and drugs that continually keep appearing. Not saying its a losing battle but people are naive to think that all of our professional sports are clean.
Maybe the solution to all of this illegality about PED is to grandfather in current players and give them full pardons. THEN, require all future players to be vaccinated with a PED. That will "even the playing field"!! Well, this all is so frustrating.
"This is why I agree completely with NatsLady that innocent or guilty Gio needs to come clean (not clean like Bonds,Clemens,ARod and Palmeiro) and not in a general sense but very specifically.
I am pretty sure that Gio's representatives and maybe even the Nats may be advising him to keep the lid on it I just don't agree that it's the best advise for Gio long term."
Who's to say that his statement today is not in fact him "coming clean, and not in a general sense but very specifically"? Innocent until proven guilty and all that. As for the PR aspect of all this, you can't unring a bell. Gio has nothing to gain and everything to lose by going down that road.
SCNatsfan, watching the competition fall is at the top of my list of fun things to watch. If this was Kris Medlen instead of Gio, I would hope to be fair but if he was found guilty I would pile on just like Melky.
.I hate cheaters. I'm old school.
sjm308 said...
Trying to be non-judgemental here. I am probably in the minority but nothing these guys do, from Lance Armstrong to Barry Bonds bothers me. It is just not a level playing field and god knows how long it has been going on. I am not going to jump to any conclusions on guilt or innocence.
In case you were wondering -- and judging by the attendance, you weren't -- you just summed up my feelings, better than I could have.
I wish that such chemicals weren't part of the game at that level, but they are, and I just can't get exercised about it.
sjm308,
Sorry; to say that cheating is OK because it's not a level playing field does not wash with me. I am not saying that I will never forgive GIO if he's determined to be guilty but the point is that it's still not OK to cheat.
I think HGH does not improve muscle mass or make your head bigger but it allows you to recover better from start to start and from injury; there are those who believe that HGH is not necessarily bad but there is no question that it gives you an advantage over those who are not using.
SonnyG10
Another, often quiet voice, standing behind you and Gio.
if as he says, Gio has never taken anything illegal, doesn't know this Bosch character and has never taken anything -- banned or not -- that came from him, either directly or not, then the risk of being caught in an investigator's trap by answering questions is not significant.
Liveronions, anyone who has any familiarity with the criminal justice system will let you that this is simply not true. Because a case can be built on circumstantial evidence, any circumstance can be spun in a way to give it the worst possible interpretation, or linked together with any other random facts to create an overall ominous picture. And when the CBA allows the Commissioner to suspend players on circumstantial evidence, shutting up and letting the process play out is clearly the right way to go.
There is virtually no fact that a good prosecutor can't weave into a damning appearance for the purpose of a conviction.
Perhaps if Gio was intent on cheating he should have gone old school and developed a spitball.
There are legal PEDs and there are illegal PEDs. The pill you take to get a good night's sleep could probably be considered a PED, but there's nothing wrong with taking it until MLB puts it on their list of banned substances. As far as I've seen, nothing that Gio has been linked to is on MLB's list of banned substances. In order to suspend him or anything of the sort, MLB would have to verify a link to a banned substance, which is what they're doing now. Just because Gio's father happened to shop at a store that also sold banned substances is not enough evidence to convict Gio of anything.
Professional athletes don't buy legal substances from shady organizations like that one. They buy banned substances from places like that. So, if your name is in that guy's book, you probably bought banned substances.
I know some of you think that's rushing to judgment but throughout this whole steroids era, that is how it always plays out, I'm not aware of an exception. I'd love to believe Gio is innocent but logic doesn't support that.
And I'll go one step further. He isn't the only Nat doing this. Sorry but that's the truth as I see from it the facts we have. I wish it wasn't so.
JD, cheating is defined as breaking the rules. If there is not a rule against something and you do it, you're not cheating. There is no blanket MLB rule against PED use in general, there are rules against specific PEDs. If Gio or anyone else uses a PED that there is no rule against, then he is not cheating.
JD - I did NOT say cheating was OK. This is just what happens. You read what I say and jump to your own conclusion. What I SAID was that it does not bother me anymore since it has been going on now for years and years and years.
Ask me how I felt back in the 70's when the East German women came out on the pool deck looking for like men!! They were cheating and back them we could do nothing about it. They might have had medals stripped but that does not help our athletes that were robbed of the glory of finishing first.
It wasn't a level playing field then, its not a level playing field now and in my opinion it never will be. I just roll with the punches now.
Please do not attribute what I wrote to saying cheating is OK!! That is almost as bad as alphabet whatever linking Desmond to this.
This is exactly why Gio should stay quiet. JD or someone else will read it and make it exactly what they want it to be.
Scooter - I wanted to say thanks but I got all fired up from being misquoted. Thanks!
sjm308 said...
This is exactly why Gio should stay quiet. JD or someone else will read it and make it exactly what they want it to be.
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DING DING DING!!!
This news just sucks.Everybody above has stated very diversified opinions, but not one of us has all the facts.All that I know from reading all of the above blogs is that Alphabet Soup Erik has lost all credibility.
"i wonder if any government agency may be involved?"
I've been watching the MLB network coverage of this, and they claim the DEA may be involved.
Gonzalez's statement has two holes in it big enough to drive a grey whale through, which he why he is well advised to shut his trap. For of all, it is limited to "performance enhancing drugs," leaving open whether it may not include substances that -- arguably -- like HGH are not deemed to improve performance. Second, his statement that he does not know Bosch is limited to just that, "knowledge." It's entirely possible (likely?) said substances were procured through a third party (father?) without any direct connection to Bosch. All he's succeeded in doing today is set himself up for a "gotcha."
Avar said...
"Professional athletes don't buy legal substances from shady organizations like that one. They buy banned substances from places like that. So, if your name is in that guy's book, you probably bought banned substances."
Of course they do. They do it all the time. Balco sold all kinds of legal stuff, from supplements to nutritional consulting services. You've made a terrible assumption- not just unfair but based on false information, too.
Avar said...
"And I'll go one step further. He isn't the only Nat doing this. Sorry but that's the truth as I see from it the facts we have. I wish it wasn't so."
What facts do we have suggesting involvement of another Nat? I wonder if maybe you don't know what a "fact" is.
Avar said...
Professional athletes don't buy legal substances from shady organizations like that one. They buy banned substances from places like that. So, if your name is in that guy's book, you probably bought banned substances.
I know some of you think that's rushing to judgment but throughout this whole steroids era, that is how it always plays out, I'm not aware of an exception. I'd love to believe Gio is innocent but logic doesn't support that.
And I'll go one step further. He isn't the only Nat doing this. Sorry but that's the truth as I see from it the facts we have. I wish it wasn't so.
January 29, 2013 3:56 PM
Avar, if you're ever falsely accused of murder, I hope your jury doesn't think like you do.
Laddie - in the court of public opinion, innocent until proven guilty doesn't mean very much these days. Here is my sample, test it for anything you want and publish the results will be much more effective than professing one's innocence. I really hope Gio is clean and I really want to believe him
Realized that Gonzalez's agent(s) are the same as Cabrera's and five of the other named players. Even if he survives this fiasco, he's going to have to clean house around him.
Wow. Out of touch all day and look what I missed! Gio has never failed a test. I think these days the testing is frequent enough that guys who use are caught. My issue right now is that Gio is kind of volatile and distracts easily. I am not sure that he can remain focused and calm with this hanging over him.
"FS, it's not that I don't believe Gio. It's that I just don't know what to think."
This is one of those cases where the wisest course is to reserve judgement until all the facts are in. It really looks bad, but he has issued an unequivocal denial. We haven't seen the lab's records, either, and there seems to be some ambiguity about what they say about Gio.
Sometimes the presumed innocent actually are. Maybe his old man just didn't know what he was getting his son into. Maybe a lot of things, either way. Of course, I am hoping for the best, and I know Rizzo is already preparing for the worst, in case it happens.
Theophilus T. S. said...
"Realized that Gonzalez's agent(s) are the same as Cabrera's and five of the other named players."
And dozens of players who have never been named or implicated in any sort of PED scandal, including David Wright and Daniel Murphy and Jordany Valdespin and Bobby Parnell and Shane Victorino and Jonathan Papelbon and John Buck and Heath Bell, and that's just some of the 2012 NL East guys.
If you're gonna go with guilt by association, you gotta do better than that.
Do keep in mind that even if Gio did buy illegal substances (stated or off the books) there is no proof that he actually took them. He has not tested positive nor has his performance spiked signicantly enough to draw red flags, im sure Rizzo has been on the phone non stop with Gio talking about the next step and what the nationals should do.
Daylos
"Laddie - in the court of public opinion, innocent until proven guilty doesn't mean very much these days."
You're right, but it is the best anyone has ever devised. In Communist China, you are presumed guilty unless you can prove you are innocent. And there are seldom any appeals. If convicted of a capital crime, they take you out back and put a slug in your head. End of story.
Our way is better. And it still does mean something, unless a slug in the head is no worse than having your day in court, where the accuser has to prove you did it. In this case, the commissioner may not even have to do that, if Verducci is right about the terms of MLB's contract with the union.
sjm308,
I did not attribute anything to you. To be clear you say that you roll with the punches and it doesn't bother you anymore; I say it still bothers me; that's all.
For all the implication and worry, there is only one fact that we know that suggests in any way that Gio may have used banned PEDs: he purchased legal supplements from a business that also sold illegal supplements. That's all there is.
This isn't a court of law or anything, but that's not nearly enough to warrant a suspension either. Unless there's a lot more out there, which I doubt considering the effort, depth and detail of the Miami New Times report, I don't see anything coming of this ever. I don't even think it will be a black cloud over Gio's career except among people inclined to hate him already like Braves and Phillies fans.
Wow! Have any of you actually gone to see the source of this story? The "newspaper" that originated this piece of investigative journalism looks like something I see at the check out counter in my local grocery store. It's just missing the bold headline to "Beware the curse of the three headed man".
http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2013-01-31/news/a-rod-and-doping-a-miami-clinic-supplies-drugs-to-sports-biggest-names/full/
Interestingly, the paper has a second story that includes images of the ledger and note pages referring to ARod.
Bowdenball,
You are right; this is stupid guilt by association. Using the same agent, living in the same city or best of all Avar's association based on nothing.
However; association with the same sleazeball clinic is something else and raises a lot of legitimate questions.
Let's be clear here; I hope like heck that Gio is guilty of nothing more than bad luck.
Bowdenball @ 5:06,
God; I hope you are right. I'll be the 1st to hop on here and admit that I over reacted and I will do so gladly.
"...but I can't fathom disciplinary action for using or taking something that's both legal and not prohibited by MLB rules. The player's union would lose their minds, and so would fans. To my knowledge it would be unprecedented, and in my judgment it would be incredibly unfair and a horrible precedent. Once you allow for suspensions for taking legal supplements, where do you draw the line?"
I don't think Selig will go that way, either, for the reasons you stated and because the union would probably challenge the findings and sue. But it appears that the union agreed to give Selig that discretionary power, nonetheless.
It's not be any easier being the commissioner than it is being the Nats GM these days.
I am still very concerned about how this will affect Gio. He can be a little high- strung on a good day. Very emotional guy. Can he handle this mentally?
"It's not any easier"
not
"It's not be any easier."
"I am still very concerned about how this will affect Gio. He can be a little high- strung on a good day. Very emotional guy. Can he handle this mentally?"
His teammates will close ranks and rally around him. He'll be alright.
Put me down with Ghost and JD on the whether cheating is ok question. I really hope Gio didn't, but if he or any other Nat did or does, they deserve everything they get. I want our WS titles to be untainted.
"For all the implication and worry, there is only one fact that we know that suggests in any way that Gio may have used banned PEDs: he purchased legal supplements from a business that also sold illegal supplements."
That is not even a fact. The dealer dude's book says the substances were purchased for Gio, not by Gio. That doesn't even necessarily mean that Gio knew the substances were being purchased in his name.
Facts we know:
(1) Someone, whether Gonzalez or someone using his name or on his behalf
(2) Purchased (w/ his credit card?)
(3) On several occasions
(4) a substance or substances, of which only, perhaps, one or two have been identified
(5) for $1,000 (when one of the identified substances is available on the Internet for $43.99 (plus shipping)
(6) from a slimebucket, or an organization run or by slimebuckets
(7) who camouflaged themselves as a medical clinic but were not doctors and
(8) sold illegal/banned substances to other baseball players.
Accepting Gonzalez's statement at face value means he is more of a goofball than anyone previously suspected.
"owned by slimebuckets"
Tcostant said...I hear you Ghost, but I think were their is smoke, their is usually fire.
Old history prof of mine was fond of saying, "Where there's smoke, there's often a smoke-making machine."
My nose tells me to wait 48 hours. You almost never get anything dispositive in the first news dump.
In fairness, I should have said "Facts we think we know" -- but I think we know them.
For all the implication and worry, there is only one fact that we know that suggests in any way that Gio may have used banned PEDs: he purchased legal supplements from a business that also sold illegal supplements. That's all there is.
Actually, we don't know anything of the sort. We know it was reported. That's all.
People are free to believe everything they read, or to discount out of hand everything a pro athlete says in their own defense. It's legal. It's even common. But if a newspaper or online site reports that a a dog's tail is actually a leg, dogs still only have four legs. Calling it a leg doesn't make it a leg. Believing what you read doesn't make it a fact.
Wow, what a bunch of muckraking busybodies! I think that I'm more worried about a lot of you all then I am about Gio.
JD - since I am starting with your name you can rest assured that I am talking to you.
You started your post with sjm 308 and I actually copied that just to make sure.
JD said...
sjm308,
Sorry; to say that cheating is OK because it's not a level playing field does not wash with me. I am not saying that I will never forgive GIO if he's determined to be guilty but the point is that it's still not OK to cheat.
Now, you can state that cheating does not wash with. You can say anything you want. But don't say or imply that I said cheating is OK because I never said that. I will let this go now but you were wrong. Just admit it.
Laddie - I'm not disputing the whole innocent until proven guilty thing, but if you don't think that the "court of public opinion" will be quick to pass judgement, fair or otherwise, you've got another thing coming really soon. Assuming he is clean, it will take a hell of a lot more than "see, I didn't do it" to convince all the clowns that have already passed judgement.
Seamhead - continue to worry about me, Always!
308, I'm not worried about you. Nobody, including you or me, know who is guilty, or not guilty, of anything, but there has been a lot of jurists not only finding Gio guilty, but are already passing judgement.
"Facts we know:
(1) Someone, whether Gonzalez or someone using his name or on his behalf
(2) Purchased (w/ his credit card?)
(3) On several occasions
(4) a substance or substances, of which only, perhaps, one or two have been identified
(5) for $1,000 (when one of the identified substances is available on the Internet for $43.99 (plus shipping)"
We don't know that any of that actually happened. All we know is that a slimebucket wrote that it did. You've never heard of fiction?
peric did it say Espi's rotator cuff was completely severed? Didn't see that.
That's what I believe he said ... perhaps I should have said detached all I know is he said it was gone and the only way to fix it was with surgery but they decided just to strengthen the muscles around it since its on his non-throwing arm. Still affects hitting.
@7:17.... That's how I remember it, too...
I think there are a whole lot of people that would like to see the Nats fall flat on their face
I'm watching MLB Network. They see nothing in the paperwork linking Gio to HGH.
Also, if you purchase 24 (2 dozen) 30 ounce bottles of AminoRip, that would cost approximately $1,000 retail. Now if you go through a clinic, they may mark it up further. Maybe they ripped him off and he paid $1,000 for 5 bottles. It wouldn't be the first time someone has ripped off a wealthy ballplayer.
So let me try to explain medical clinics and the state of Fla. There are more private pain clinics then doctor offices. A few years ago when there was talk of regulating them, it was quickly killed. Seems some believed it would hurt small businesses. It took the govenor of Tenn. promising to sue the state if they did not crack down. We had one doctor write more scripts for oxy, then all the doctors in Calif. combined. Our Govenors company was found guilty of the largest medicare scam in history, but he was still elected. We have more medicaid/medicare fraud than any other state. But it is okay because we have a different set of standards here. Going to a clinic at the corner shopping center is like going to a Kaiser clinic because someone else says it's ok. Heck, they probably billed medicaid as well as their clients. And you thought it was just elections we couldn't handle.
I have lived in Fla. He is not exaggerating .
Also, if you purchase 24 (2 dozen) 30 ounce bottles of AminoRip, that would cost approximately $1,000 retail.
So, what's a dose? How long would that case be good for?
Sales of HGH last year was $1.4 billion. My guess is this is a problem of abuse and can't imagine all the prospective athletes that are using it. Wasn't it created for children with growth issues? I think HGH abuse swells the jawline permanently as it thickens the bone.
Section 3, my sofa said...
Also, if you purchase 24 (2 dozen) 30 ounce bottles of AminoRip, that would cost approximately $1,000 retail.
So, what's a dose? How long would that case be good for?
___________________________
It depends how much you use a day but the recommended dosage is 1 ounce at a time. Say you take it 3 times a day then a bottle would last 10 days.
24 bottles would last 8 months. If you do 2 ounces a day then 24 bottles would last exactly 1 full year.
Gonat - go look at the players who bulked up and see how many wore braces. Easy to find images of Bonds et al with them on as their careers progressed.
It depends how much you use a day but the recommended dosage is 1 ounce at a time. Say you take it 3 times a day then a bottle would last 10 days.
24 bottles would last 8 months. If you do 2 ounces a day then 24 bottles would last exactly 1 full year.
Thanks. So that's not a crazy amount to buy, but I wouldn't want to drink year-old beer. I might buy a one-year supply of aspirin if I got a really good price, but most stuff like that has a shelf life. OTOH, I don't care who sees me buying aspirin, so maybe that figures into it. Hypothetically.
SCNatsFan said...
Gonat - go look at the players who bulked up and see how many wore braces. Easy to find images of Bonds et al with them on as their careers progressed.
January 29, 2013 10:56 PM
_________________________________
Is that right. Didn't know that.
Right now I'm watching ESPN as Ray Lewis is being accused of PEDs.
Its crazy!
Section 3, my sofa said...
"It depends how much you use a day but the recommended dosage is 1 ounce at a time. Say you take it 3 times a day then a bottle would last 10 days.
24 bottles would last 8 months. If you do 2 ounces a day then 24 bottles would last exactly 1 full year."
Thanks. So that's not a crazy amount to buy, but I wouldn't want to drink year-old beer. I might buy a one-year supply of aspirin if I got a really good price, but most stuff like that has a shelf life. OTOH, I don't care who sees me buying aspirin, so maybe that figures into it. Hypothetically.
________________________________
Keep in mind, they didn't give quantities so in actuality I'm just trying to rationalize what $1,000 would buy at Retail and using the 1 ounce serving size.
The strange thing goes back to Gio's blanket denial that "I've never met or spoken with Tony Bosch or used any substance provided by him." so I think this expensive "AminoRip" was for his father.
Well, one thing is clear. Nobody posting to this blog has all of the details and we may never have all of the information out there. I personally am going to withhold judgment until I learn more.
I am left to wonder why professional athletes jeopardize their reputations, career and future earnings by being anywhere close to a source that isn't 100% legit and club / MLB approved. Or, allow themselves to become entangled in situations involving their family / friends.
"Laddie - I'm not disputing the whole innocent until proven guilty thing, but if you don't think that the "court of public opinion" will be quick to pass judgement, fair or otherwise, you've got another thing coming really soon. Assuming he is clean, it will take a hell of a lot more than "see, I didn't do it" to convince all the clowns that have already passed judgement."
And I'm not disputing your observations on the "court of public opinion," either. Even if he is completely exonerate by MLB, which is entirely possible, there will be those who will be convinced it was a whitewash and that he was guilty, regardless. As Ray Donovan famously said after being completely exonerated of false charges of political corruption "Where do I go to get my reputation back?"
Unfortunately, guys like Lance Armstrong contribute to a culture of justified cynicism on the part of the public. Once accused, Gio cannot win a complete victory in the court of public opinion, whether he actually did anything wrong, or not. That's the price they pay for fame, money, and celebrity. It really doesn't matter what he does. It will never be enough.
Tcostant said...
I just heard on a 980am update that a former employee said that Gio recieved HGH.
January 29, 2013 1:16 PM
I have not heard that anywhere and on both ESPN and MLB Network their on-air personalities all seem to side with Gio Gonzalez for now however on MLB Network this morning on the bottom of the screen they specifically have Gio's name on there naming the players tied to PED's in this story.
I feel at this point it becomes almost libelous to directly link Gio to the PED's.
The best thing we can hope for is that it all goes away and Gio passes all of his PED testing.
Like Laddie said, the court of public opinion may not care either way and I fear Gio will be taunted in Philadelphia now regardless. Persumption of innocence is great per our American laws but some people can be cruel and that's unfortunately the way it is.
"I feel at this point it becomes almost libelous to directly link Gio to the PED's."
I've been trying to keep up with MLB's coverage of this, and Verducci came on and addressed the allegations made about Gio, specifically. He clearly stated that there were no PEDs associated with any of the known allegations against Gio. If I read his body language correctly, Verducci's opinion is leaning toward one of exoneration for Gio. I am encouraged.
Also, Rizzo came out with a brief statement declining to comment until MLB has made a finding regarding Gio. That is the responsible position for Mike to take, IMO.
Well, the other shoe has dropped:
From ESPN
"Washington Nationals All-Star shortstop Ian Desmond implicated in Sarasota Geritol ring. 'I got it from a guy at the Early Bird buffet', said Desmond"
You just KNEW this would happen if he stayed around all those seniors!Y
I'm with Gio on this.
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