NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- Having spent the better portion of their history swiping minor leaguers from other, more talent-laden organizations through the Rule 5 draft, the Nationals now are finding out what it's like to have their own prospects plucked away.
The Nationals lost two players this morning in the major-league portion of the annual event that closes the Winter Meetings: left-hander Danny Rosenbaum (who went to the Rockies) and second baseman Jeff Kobernus (who went to the Red Sox).The Nationals then lost left-hander Jack McGeary (Red Sox) and right-hander Hector Nelo (Dodgers) during the Class AAA portion of the draft.
The club didn't select anyone in any of the draft's three rounds.
Though neither was expected to have a significant impact on the Nationals' big-league roster next season, Rosenbaum and Kobernus each were highly regarded in the organization and could have been needed for depth in the next year or two.
"You set your rosters and you know you're always taking chances on losing any of your prospects," assistant general manager Bryan Minniti said. "It's never good to lose a left-handed starting pitching prospect and a middle infield prospect. But you wish them well, you wish them luck. At the end of the day, you hope you get them back at some point in the next year."
Teams must pay their counterparts $50,000 for each player selected in the Rule 5 draft. Those players then must remain on the big-league roster for an entire season or else be offered back for $25,000.
Rosenbaum, 25, went 8-10 with a 3.94 ERA last season at Class AA Harrisburg, earning Eastern League All-Star honors after a dominant first half before fading down the stretch. The left-hander was expected to open 2013 in the rotation at Class AAA Syracuse and would have been among the group of starters general manager Mike Rizzo wants to have available in case of injury to one of his five big-league starters.
The Nationals' upper-level pitching depth has become woefully thin, with the organization now having lost Rosenbaum, Alex Meyer, Tommy Milone and Brad Peacock all within the last year. Two other top pitching prospects -- Sammy Solis and Lucas Giolito -- had Tommy John surgery in 2012.
Team officials recognize the need to sign several minor-league free agents who can fill out their Class AAA rotation and be ready for call-ups if needed, though it won't be an easy sell.
"The challenging thing with the major-league rotation we have is recruiting guys that know they're probably going to end up at Triple-A, barring an injury," Minniti said. "We'll continue to try to sign those guys. But it's going to be a little more difficult with the rotation we have."
Kobernus faced less of a potential future with the Nationals, given the fact they already have two starting-quality second basemen on the big-league roster in Danny Espinosa and Steve Lombardozzi.
The 24-year-old Kobernus -- who is expected to be immediately dealt by the Red Sox to the Tigers -- hit .282 with with 42 stolen bases last season at Harrisburg and was targeted to open 2013 at Syracuse.
McGeary's loss in the Class AAA phase of the draft caps his disappointing tenure in the Nationals organization. Drafted out of high school in 2007, the left-hander was given a $1.8 million signing bonus (a record at the time for a sixth-round pick) and tuition money to attend Stanford as part of a creative package orchestrated by former general manager Jim Bowden.
McGeary, though, never lived up to his potential. After splitting time as a professional pitcher and college student for a year, he turned to baseball full-time in 2009 but struggled mightily and wound up needing Tommy John surgery on his elbow. He appeared in only eight games last season and has yet to reach Class AA.
Nelo, 26, posted a 2.73 ERA and 16 saves in 47 games with Harrisburg last season.
190 comments:
prety good chance both will be back and pretty good chance it won't matter much one way or another.
the times are a changin
Hmmmm.... Would somebody please explain the difference (ramifications-wise speaking) between the major league and the minor league portions of the draft? Many thanks!
Unkyd, do you mean to ask difference between amateur draft that happens in June and the Rule 5 draft that happens in at the end of winter meetings?
The Phills are in discussions to acquire Michael Young from Texas. He's both old and bad; he should fit right in.
Got new posted. From last thread:
Is there a rule on how many players can be taken in a rule 5 draft from one team? If not, seems like we could lose too many players if we had outstanding minor league prospects.
the main ramification of rule 5 I know is that teams can't pile up young, controllable minor league talent in minors for as long as they want. basically rockies think that rosenbaum is better used on their 25 man roster for the entire season next year than in Nats minor leagues. if rockies can't do that, they will have to give him back to us.
JD, good point.
SonnyG10, two.
Thanks, FS. I guess that's two in the major league portion and two in the minor league portion, since we have lost more than two altogether.
oh yeah, apparently you can draft AA players and stack them in your AAA.
UnkyD,
I think the minor league portion of the draft mimics the MLB version. Player must stay at AAA or AA (depending on the phase of the draft) for the year or be returned. Team losing player gets a small cash compensation.
From MLB.com:
There are also Triple-A and Double-A phases to the Rule 5 Draft. Players put on the Triple-A reserve list cost the selecting team $12,000, and players put on the Double-A reserve list cost the selecting team $4,000.
We'll be getting all these guys back. Nelo, I thought was an interesting relief prospect.
Ok, we might not get Nelo Back. I think he was due for a promotion to AAA anyway.
The Nationals' upper-level pitching depth has become woefully thin, with the organization now having lost Rosenbaum, Alex Meyer, Tommy Milone and Brad Peacock all within the last year.
Let's not forget the big kahuna -- A.J. Cole.
But never fear, we have Zach Duke, maybe Christian Garcia, and Yunesky Maya to fill in if Haren has a relapse.
if rockies can't do that, they will have to give him back to us.
No, just like with Komatsu they put them on waivers if they can't keep them on the 25 and another team could claim them and in the case of Komatsu did. If they clear waivers then they have to be offered back to their originating team.
At least that's my understanding of it.
Losing a left handed starter in Rosenbaum who would have been in AAA Syracuse this season does indeed hurt. BUT, as Luke Erickson recently observed on NationalsProspects.com the Nats appear to be eschewing injury and ONLY looking at the pitcher's potential, talent and projected ceiling. From their perspective Rosenbaum doesn't have the ceiling that Purke and Solis do. They did like Milone in 2011 though so ... in McGreary's case he had ample time to prove his value and attempt to achieve his ceiling. It never happened perhaps a change of scenery would do him good? Who knows? The problem is HE IS another left-hander, potentially a reliever in the offing.
That's TWO young prospect left-handers the Nats have now lost. They need to acquire some more. And that's where Morse, Moore Lombardozzi, and perhaps Bernadina come in to play. Remembering that Rizzo was able to acquire two decent pitchers in Ryan Tatusko and Tanner Roark for Guzman one would think that for the talent I listed above he could manage to get some talented, high-ceiling A-level lefties with a sprinkling of position players.
A lot depends on Davey and on whether he feels he the need to keep these players in house for depth. Still, in the case of Moore, Lombo, and the Shark it hurts the careers of all three as any or all of the three could be starters on another team. Yes, Bernadina. If JMax can start for the Astros? So, there's that.
The Nats need to make a decision now as to whether Zim definitely is LaRoche's heir apparent at first base with Rendon moving in at third. By making that call now they can make moves to help assuage a rapidly declining farm system. The draft won't get them as much of a return as in the past with the Nats Cap in place and they appear to be rather reluctant (read cautiously frugal) internationally.
Its a serious problem that needs to be addressed now.
Thanks, JB. That doesn't seem (to my never-to-be-considered-astute reasoning) like much of a risk, when pilfering minor leaguers. If it's just pocket change, and no 40 man roster spot, why not snaggle any player you think has a remote chance of helping you out? I'm sure I'm missing something, here...
I am not too keen on trading Morse, but if we do, I think we should be able to get at least a AA pitching prospect.
they didn't lose Milone, he became Gio. in effect he graduated.
small deficiency, yes. serious problem, no
If they end up trading anyone, Morse and Bernadina seem most likely - with Span, they have less need for the defensive replacement role Bernadina tended to fill, though that would deprive them of their only real option for pinch-runner. With Span as the starter they'd need the option of a power-hitter they'd have in Moore, I think. Do they have any prospects ready to be a middle infield bench player this year? If not, Lombardozzi seems more likely to stay.
I'm at a point where I feel like if I can't say something nice then I shouldn't say anything at all. That about says it all.
Let's not forget the big kahuna -- A.J. Cole.
But never fear, we have Zach Duke, maybe Christian Garcia, and Yunesky Maya to fill in if Haren has a relapse.
And Ryan Perry. Assume Lucas Giolito replaces the right-handed AJ Cole in the Nats system.
The problem is in fact the dearth of lefties, both starters and relievers from the major league level deep into the minors. Robbie Ray, Josh Smoker, and maybe Pat McCoy. And then Mooneyham just getting started last season.
Roark, Maya, Perry, Garcia, and Jeff Mandel would be featured as AAA depth. All right handed. Mandel had a break out season, Perry started out great as a converted starter and reverted in the AFL, Garcia is an unknown after two TJ surgeries but will almost certainly be there. Roark would be repeating AAA.
That's FIVE right-handers and no lefties.
If Micheal Young goes to the Phillies, doesn't that mean the Rangers will look a LaRoche more seriously?
- with Span, they have less need for the defensive replacement role Bernadina tended to fill, though that would deprive them of their only real option for pinch-runner. With Span as the starter they'd need the option of a power-hitter they'd have in Moore
They've got Corey Brown who may be a better fielder than Span in CF. He can also play all three outfield positions. Features a left-handed power bat and has above average speed. And Davey has said that he is ready for the majors now. But, Eury Perez needs more minor league time. So?
They don't need Bernadina and since he is still young and has major league experience he should be a valuable commodity.
If Micheal Young goes to the Phillies, doesn't that mean the Rangers will look a LaRoche more seriously?
Yup and I think that's what LaRoche has been waiting on. He could end up DH'ing there as well. So, he wouldn't block anyone.
small deficiency, yes. serious problem, no
Serious problems yes. After the first four or five prospects the Nats farm system looks pretty weak depth wise. Not as bad as it was when the mlb owned the Nats and Bowden was GM. But definitely in the lower rung.
Once Rendon graduates the Nats farm system reverts to a high 20's ranking or worse. Yes, that is a SERIOUS problem. The team is built from within for the most part they need to be able to continue to do that.
Presuming we sign ALR, then Morse can be used to brng back a couple of AAA arms.
On the previous post, before realizing Mark had moved on, I offered the following:
"Michael Young is a year away from leading the AL in hits. Though he is coming off a "bad" year (169 hits), this (Phillies) is a straight salary dump, which would cover more than a third of a three-year deal for LaRoche. (If Rangers don't reel in Hamilton.)"
NatsLady,
The thinking on Texas (at least what I read) is this:
1) They will sign Hamilton and trade for a pitcher such as Shields.
Or
2) They will sign Greinke and trade for for a bat like Justin Upton.
I think in the domino scenarios LaRoche is behind Hamilton and Swisher and the teams in play are : Texas, Seattle and Cleveland.
Any of Morse, Bernadina or Lombardozzi should bring more in return than Guzman. For a brief while, Roark and Tatusko were promising but now appear to be chum.
Nice tweet/retweet by Mark and totally agree:
Mark Zuckerman@ZuckermanCSN
Well said. RT @GavCollins9 Rather have MLB leading rotation or AAA leading depth? Depth is good, but rather be Nats fan now than 2 yrs ago.
Nathan Karns and Erik Davis were considered more valuable then Rosenbaum, thus they were protected. Also, I believe you are wrong about the rule 5 guys having to clear wavers before being offered back to the original team,peric.Where did you get that? The way I understand the rule5 thing is the team drafting the player pays, in this case, the Nats $50K and have to keep the player on their 25 man roster for the entire year, or offer him back to the original team for $25K. That's how we lost, and then re-reacquired Cole Kimble with the Jays.
Presuming we sign ALR, then Morse can be used to brng back a couple of AAA arms.
No. They are going to sign those or pick them up from spring training cuts. And they do already have five AAA starters. Just no lefties.
If they trade Morse it will either be for young major league left-handed relief and/or A level prospects that have ceilings.
I agree with Peric about the relatively poor state of our farm system; in fact I would argue that it is worse than he presents especially at the AAA and AA levels.
I don't think this is a tragedy because the major league club is both excellent AND very young. Having said that I do agree that in future trades the accent needs to be on young low level real prospects and international signings needs to become a priority because you need a steady pipeline or you become the Phillies.
lso, I believe you are wrong about the rule 5 guys having to clear wavers before being offered back to the original team,peric.Where did you get that?
That's what happened to Komatsu just last year? WHERE THE F*&^ were you? Sitting in the back yard draining the keg instead of paying attention?
Depth is good, but rather be Nats fan now than 2 yrs ago.
Did someone mention the Philthies? Hmmm now Michelle what happened when they started to lose the top rotation in baseball to injuries? They are older but injuries can occur even with the youngest pitchers.
It pays to have good insurance just in case thus Lannan and Duke in AAA last season.
I do think Rizzo will sign a couple of pitchers to bolster the AAA staff; pitchers like Zack Duke was last year. I don't think you want to take a shot with Maya, Mandel or Roark if a pitcher goes down for a long time. Perry and Garcia are interesting but are both projects.
Nate Karns may be the ace in the hole if he is able to continue moving up successfully but he has never pitched higher than at A+.
Ben Revere to the Phils -- wow! Our Division is not going to roll over for us, that is for sure.
OK< genius in your own mind, this is from ML Baseball's site:
About the Rule 5 Draft
Every year, Major League Baseball holds two player drafts. Most fans are familiar with and have a basic understanding of the First-Year Player Draft, which occurs each June and deals with amateur players in the United States and Puerto Rico. But the Rule 5 Draft, which takes place in December and concerns professional players, is less understood. Below are some questions and answers intended to clarify how the Rule 5 Draft works.
What happens when a player is selected in the Rule 5 Draft?
A team that selects a player in the Rule 5 Draft pays $50,000 to the team from which he was selected. The receiving team must then keep the player on the Major League 25-man roster for the entirety of the next season, and the selected player must remain active (not on the disabled list) for a minimum of 90 days. If the player does not remain on the Major League roster, he is offered back to the team from which he was selected for $25,000. If his original team declines, the receiving team may waive the player.
Once a player is selected, he is automatically assigned to his new organization's 40-man roster.
Morse is not going to bring some sexy haul in return, if treaded. He's a nice player and can really help a club looking for RH power in 2013, but he's not so valuable all things considered in that a club gets only 1 year of a guy who can only play 2 positions (they both start with D -- and one ends with an L).
Insurance at AAA - I am sure Rizzo is out looking for it. He pulled Duke of the scrap heap last year. I am sure he will find a few others.
we won't be able to extend and keep everyone. you trade some to stock your minors and go from there. do you all really think that desmond, jz, ss, gg, harper, espinosa among others are going to spend their whole career with nationals?
How does peric go from being a reasonable, knowledgeable discussant to a total antisocial jerk within two minutes?
It is a puzzle to me.
Phillies got revere from twins for Worley and there number 2prospect
Phillies got Rovere, sent Worley and Trevor May (AA prospect, good K-rate) to the Twins. They have to be banking on their rotation staying healthy. Guess they didn't want to lay out the $$ for Bourne.
Judging by the Phillies' deal, we may have gotten a steal with Span - he's viewed as the better defensive player, gets on base more often, and the Phillies gave up a starting pitcher *and* a solid pitching prospect for Revere.
Peric you need to get back on your meds. There is no reason for that kind of tone, language or attitude. It was a simple question. We all know you think you are the smartest man in the room. Since you are so sure of that...try to be gracious instead of so condescending (and angry!).
The Bourne market is drying up quickly. Philly have up more for Revere than we did for Span. Well played, Rizzo.
EmDash--you have extra years of team control for Rovere, so you do pay more. However, the Nats didn't need those extra years, in theory, with our own OF prospects coming up (Goodwin, in particular). Also, the extra years are extra opportunity for the player to get injured. Trying not to be too much of a "homer" but I still think we got the better deal.
Rizzo still has two open slots on the 40-man (even after Haren, Duke and Span), plus some flexibity with what I consider marginal guys. Also, he probably won't be keeping both Morse and ALR. So I figure he has plenty of room for maneuver after the Greinke/Hamilton situation resolves itself.
I got a Danny Rosenbaum P-Nats bobblehead. Will trade for a President and PTBNL.
WOW, Ben Revere to the Phillies. So, both Twins slap hitters go to NL East CF starting slots.
3on2out.....social skills do not come easy to him.Sad.
3on2out said...
Peric you need to get back on your meds. There is no reason for that kind of tone, language or attitude. It was a simple question. We all know you think you are the smartest man in the room. Since you are so sure of that...try to be gracious instead of so condescending (and angry!).
Here we go with the name calling again .. again the Hypocritical pot calling the kettle black.
3on2out get rid of the patronizing tone. Stop telling people to get back on their meds and get a real job troll.
And Notsjack you moron get a life.
Joe.....the waiver part is not a requirement. It's available to teams to see if they can recoup some of their cost or find a trade partner. But then, those of us who merely baseball fans knew that.
And Michael Morse and Corey Brown are way too old for their levels. They are just AAAA players so sayeth the great Notsjack.
Also, he probably won't be keeping both Morse and ALR [on the 40-man roster].
POI, while Morse is now on the active roster, LaRoche would be added, if signed, using one of the now-open spots unless Morse or somebody is traded.
I don't think it's sad. It's a choice.
staring, right, sorry.
Also, he probably won't be keeping both Morse and ALR. So I figure he has plenty of room for maneuver after the Greinke/Hamilton situation resolves itself.
Its the 25 man that's the key. Stashed veterans aren't going to be on the 40-man until needed I guess. I'd say those one of those spots is LaRoche's should he choose to sign and the other is for another left-handed reliever.
I don't think it's sad. It's a choice.
Kind of like deciding to root for the Nats just when they start to win. Right Bandwagon fan?
This is the guy I was hoping we'd get, even though he's not a lefty. Oh, well.
Drew Silva @drewsilv
Koji Uehara posts a 1.75 ERA, 0.64 WHIP and 43/3 K/BB across 36 IP in 2012 and has to settle for a one-year deal? Relief market be crazy.
It was a simple question.
It was an attack moron plain and simple. But you didn't bother to read his, like your, patronizing comment about "not saying anything unless its something nice".
Again, stop advising other people. Tend to your own garden 3on2out.
•Red Sox take second baseman Jeff Kobernus from Nationals; traded to Tigers for IF/OF-er Justin Henry. So how does that work? If Tigers don't keep Kobernus on 25 man roster do the RedSox have to give Justin Henry back to Tigers???
This is the guy I was hoping we'd get, even though he's not a lefty. Oh, well.
I believe Davey might get more than a tad fractious if he isn't given at least one more lefty in the bullpen.
Tidbits.
Revere has tremendous range in center field that more than makes up for perhaps the worst arm in baseball and he’s capable of swiping 50 bases at a good clip, but he may never hit an over-the-fence homer and through age 24 he’s hit .278 with a .319 on-base percentage and .323 slugging percentage. For years he’s been compared to Juan Pierre, for better or worse.
On May:
May is a 22-year-old former fourth-round pick who spent this year at Double-A, posting a 4.87 ERA while racking up 151 strikeouts in 149 innings. He has control issues, but May was a top-100 prospect coming into the season and has 11.1 strikeouts per nine innings for his pro career.
If Tigers don't keep Kobernus on 25 man roster do the RedSox have to give Justin Henry back to Tigers???
Okay perfessor NotsJack, our captain Wrongway Peachfuzz, who knows all, sees all about baseball. The whizzard of Not. Why don't you dazzle us with your knowledge moron?
Really hope the Phillies don't go and get Bourn now also...that would be a lot of speed at the top of that lineup. Nats don't exactly hold runners too well. That would be 3 guys who could steal a combined 120 bases next year.
Really hope the Phillies don't go and get Bourn now also...that would be a lot of speed at the top of that lineup.
Its not going to happen. Not any different than it was when Victorino was patrolling center for them. Same bat channel.
pierre had more doubles and steals at his age than revere does now.
Is anyone else tired of checking in to see the comments on this blog only to find out that the majority of them or by, in response to, or about peric.
I am getting tired of hypocrites who complain about name calling and look at this? WTF!
Too many whiners who like to dish it out but can't take it.
If you can't stand the heat get the hell out of the kitchen dude.
Corrected typos:
Is anyone else tired of checking in to see the comments on this blog only to find out that the majority of them are by, in response to, or about peric? I know I contribute to that unfortunate situation. Sorry.
The way I read this, if the Tigers don't keep Kobernus, they have to offer him back to the Nats, but that doesn't affect Justin Henry.
Any player chosen in the Rule 5 draft may be traded to any team while under the Rule 5 restrictions, but the restrictions transfer to the new team. If the new team does not want to keep the player on its 25-man roster for the season, he must be offered back to the team of which he was a member when chosen in the draft.
pierre had more doubles and steals at his age than revere does now.
The Phillies are managing to find ways to get younger though ...
sec222 I sure am. Be nice if you could express an opinion and not be called a moron. Alas every forum needs an ITG.
Is anyone else tired of checking in to see the comments on this blog only to find out that the majority of them are by, in response to, or about peric? I know I contribute to that unfortunate situation. Sorry.
Correct to bold-iin-your-face you wanna a piece of me?
I am getting tired of hypocrites who complain about name calling and look at this? WTF!
Too many whiners who like to dish it out but can't take it.
If you can't stand the heat get the hell out of the kitchen dude.
Snacky; I would guess not. In what other circumstance is a team able to reclaim a player it has traded, simply because the player it traded for didn't work out? A deal's a deal, no?
And, having hung around here, for a couple of years, now... I have to say that Peric is one if the most facinating characters I've ever "met". Don't change a thing, brother... You're a big part of why I check in, several times a day.
sec222 I sure am. Be nice if you could express an opinion and not be called a moron. Alas every forum needs an ITG.
Yeah and its not like I am never called any names right there SCNatsFan? And for expressing an opinion.
Hypocrites R' Us : that is the true banner for Natsinsider.
Ok, peric, someone is changing the keg...so meanwhile: in the 2011 rule 5 draft Eric Komatsu was taken from the Nats by the Cards. On May 1, 2012 after the Nats chose not to pony up $25K to get him back, he was DFA'ed and picked up by the Twins, then was DFA'ed by them on 5/27/2012. What don't I have right?
Here is the part about waivers, which someone asked about:
"The drafting club must keep the player on its 25-man active roster for all of the next season or put him on waivers. If a third club claims the player on waivers, the third club also must keep him in the majors all season. If the player clears waivers, he must be offered back to his original club for $25,000. A drafting club may work out a trade with the player’s original club so that the drafting club can keep him and send him to the minor leagues."
Like I said, ITG - internet tough guy.
'Is anyone else tired of finding out majority of comments either by, in response to, or about peric?...'
So, Fraraz I'll keep a running tally of the number of times you post. And then I will make that obnoxious observation with the request that you limit your posts. I am certain you will appreciate my efforts on your behalf.
There are many times when you post more than I do.
in the 2011 rule 5 draft Eric Komatsu was taken from the Nats by the Cards. On May 1, 2012 after the Nats chose not to pony up $25K to get him back, he was DFA'ed and picked up by the Twins, then was DFA'ed by them on 5/27/2012. What don't I have right?
I don't know. If you carefully read my original post you would see that I was as surprised by what happened as anyone else. What are your sources? I followed this closely and I never saw this. So, sources please.
Well Joe Seamhead sure seems to me like Natslady's source contradicts your pronouncement? Seems to me she can and does produce her sources where you, instead, claim to have all of this coaching acumen etc?
~smiles~
"The drafting club must keep the player on its 25-man active roster for all of the next season or put him on waivers. If a third club claims the player on waivers, the third club also must keep him in the majors all season. If the player clears waivers, he must be offered back to his original club for $25,000. A drafting club may work out a trade with the player’s original club so that the drafting club can keep him and send him to the minor leagues."
peric, regarding your question at 1:04 p.m. here is your answer, again from MLB:
Can players selected in the Rule 5 Draft be traded?
Teams may trade a player selected in the Rule 5 Draft, but the same rules regarding roster placement apply to the player's new team.
peric, if you would shut up and listen, you may learn something once in a while. I know in your own mind you are a legend about your baseball knowledge, and of course none of us can compete with your legendary status.
peric, if you would shut up and listen, you may learn something once in a while. I know in your own mind you are a legend about your baseball knowledge, and of course none of us can compete with your legendary status.
Based on what Natslady just posted you are looking pretty silly there Seamhead. You need to take your own advice. You really don't know as much as you claim.
If you ever wondered what would happen if peric reached for his meds and grabbed a Red Bull instead, now you know.
If you ever wondered what would happen if peric reached for his meds and grabbed a Red Bull instead, now you know.
Have you ever wondered what FeelWood does late at night when no one is looking? Getting lots and lots of splinters.
I gotta say, it's once again bordering on unreadable here. Much like the bad old neg-anon days.
maybe someone is juicing like they accused Jeter of doing
Where does this bandwagon thing come from? Odd.
alas Dave I agree; no more negative post from me
Here is the most detailed analysis of the Rule 5 rules I could find. It's from a Cubs reporter, so the examples are from the Cubs system.
Rule 5 rules
http://www.thecubreporter.com/12052012/2012-mlb-rule-5-selection-meeting
It is correct that a team may waive the rule 5 player, but if a new team picks him up the same rules applies to the new team as far as keeping him on the 25 man roster.
C'mon, people, time to hit your mental "ignore" button. This is becoming unreadable.
BTW, the minor-league players apparently don't have to be retained on their new clubs, so they are gone for good (or rather, for $12K each) unless they are released and the Nats want to pick them up just like any other minor-league players.
Here is fangraphs analysis of the Fillies-Twins trade. Bottom line, adding May to the trade was a "huge win" for Minnesota.
So, the real mystery here is why the Phillies felt it necessary to add May to make this deal. May isn’t particularly close to the Majors, but he has a big arm and has already reached Double-A, so with some refinements to his command, he could be an above average hurler, or else he could end up as a power reliever out of the bullpen. May is a similar prospect to Alex Meyer, who was the sole return Minnesota got in return for Denard Span.
While I felt that deal was too light for the Twins, getting that same caliber of prospect to offset whatever small difference exists between Revere and Worley is a huge win for Minnesota. They essentially turned an average-ish center fielder into an average-ish starting pitcher and a quality pitching prospect. I’m not generally a huge fan of building around pitching, but this is a deal the Twins couldn’t pass up.
phillies-pay-premium-for-ben-revere
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/phillies-pay-premium-for-ben-revere/
NJ--true. Am just posting a few links for people who are at work--where I will be soon...
Thanks for the cubreporter piece, NatsLady. What I learned from it is that, the intricacies of the Rule 5 Draft require far more gray matter to understand than I care to delegate to them. In Rizzo I Trust!
OK, peric, I was wrong, as I was quoting MLB's apparently abbreviated interpretation on their page. The rule according to Nats Lady's link are not as simple as either of us implied.
NatsLady said...
NJ--true. Am just posting a few links for people who are at work--where I will be soon...
The rest of us know how to use the Internet and find totally non-Nats related info if we want it. So please spare us these links. They're almost as annoying as peric.
Feel Wood said...
NatsLady said...
NJ--true. Am just posting a few links for people who are at work--where I will be soon...
The rest of us know how to use the Internet and find totally non-Nats related info if we want it. So please spare us these links. They're almost as annoying as peric.
-------------------
OK, now that's just Rude!
Well, when I'm at work I can't be looking around the internet. All I'm able to do is I come to Nats Insider for a quick peek to see if any interesting items or links have been posted. When I'm not at work, I try to provide that service for other people...
Shut up, feel wood.
NatsLady, ignore him. I really appreciate you posting these links.
:-)
Considering yesterday was spent arguing over the tax laws... I'm not feeling my posts are subpar...
NatsLady, thanks for the stuff on Revere. The twitter verse is saying how the Phills totally overpaid for him and how the nats got a bargain for Span.
I only wished that Amaro signed Bourn to tie up more payroll. He still has time to add an Ancient Michael Young from TX. I also think the Rangers have Mitch Moreland in house to play 1b, obviously ALR is much better than him. but they do have in house options as well.
From MLBTR ...
The Mets talked to the Yankees and Nationals (prior to their Dan Haren signing) this week about Dickey, tweets Andy Martino, but the Yankees don't have the pieces and GM Sandy Alderson wouldn't trade within the division.
Rizzo always has multiple irons in the fire ... that would have been a truly amazing rotation.
Arggh - I check in on the site and I see a flailing, venom-spitting poster who spoils it for everyone. peric, please cut it out. Once again you believe every post that is even potentially counter factual to you own as a personal attack, even when a reasonable person, certainly a gracious one, would not make the same inference.
Joe Seamhead said he thought you were wrong when you said " If they clear waivers then they have to be offered back to their originating team."
It was as gentle a disagreement as one can meak, but you were so shocked someone could call you out that you started calling people morons, saying they drank beer when they should be watching and absorbing every nuance of MLB trades, etc. It was an unwarranted attack on everyone you decided was attacking you because you may have been show to have been wrong.
And of course, you WERE wrong! Because, barring a trade, which was not part of your original statement, Rule 5 draftees must be offered to the original team FIRST, and THEN, if the original team DECLINES to pony up the $25,000, the player must clear waivers before the drafting team can keep them.
The reason is simple - If I take a player in a Rule 5 draft from a top-tier team, they would never be able to reclaim him off waivers if a lower-tier team wanted him first. So, the team that lost the player gets first dibs even BEFORE the player is put on waivers.
OK? Now, stop the bile please. I enjoy reading the opinions here, even when they differ from mine, because I feel like they help round out my own views, and that includes helping to change them. And, if I say something that is incorrect, and someone points it out, I say "I stand corrected," not, "I wallow in the gutter filled with my own bile in order to deny that I was wrong."
So peric, cut it out. While I admit you do receive more than your fair share of attacks, you also receive a justifiable number of corrections, most of which are quite genteel. And your propensity to fly off the handle and start attacking everyone as morons at the first sign of disagreement is certainly a major reason you appear at times to have a "kick me" sign on your back.
If you cannot post civilly here, please do not post here at all. If all you are looking for is a fight, you and poopy can have a battle royale over on the Wapo site.
Now, as for Nats' Rule 5 losses, my view is that it happens when you have a lot of talent. Those are clearly guys that Rizzo and co. felt the could lose over some others that they protected. And I'm willing, based on their track record, to trust the Nats' brain trust here. They will stock up the minor league cupboard when ST cuts happen.
Cheers from the other hemisphere!
[not having followed the above thread today (retirement is a time-consuming thing), I can only make comment on the story itself]
... of course there's a cost against the minor league system when the GM puts together a 'big' team ready to challenge for the ultimate prize. That's a given in any sport where teams and organisations are like icebergs - only the big boys are visible above water.
... and the Nats' farm will suffer from what MR has been able to do over the past couple of years.
... but I have great faith in Ratso that he will display his marvellous expertise once more and build up the minors. No worries.
Go Mike! Go Nats!!
MicheleS, my feeling is this: you are limited as a fan in that you can only use stats and experts (and videos) to assess what your division rivals are doing in the off-season. That doesn't make it an entirely useless exercise to try, however.
Exactly NatsLady. And only time will tell who got the best end of each of the deals. Like someone said earlier, we my have lost Tommy Milone, but we gained GIO and year 1 is both a win win for each team, I give the Nats the edge so far since GIO proved to be our #2 (and in the Cy awards race)
Ehay2k.. WORD!
Wow
One of the testiest sessions I have read here in years.
Here is the big difference -
Seamhead "peric, I was wrong"
Peric - "moron, idiot, bandwagon etc etc ( sorry I still don't know how to do bold)
To boldly say < b >peric is a moron< /b >, just leave out the blank spaces between < and >.
Ehay2k.. WORD!
Too many words. The rest of us got his point after one paragraph; peric will never get it.
Feel, please stop, you are only encouraging this and it just gets old.
sjm308, thanks. Ehay2k,sometimes I wish there was a thumbs up option on this blog. Or, in the case of your post, I wish there was a two thumbs up option.
Wish Dr. Phil followed this blog . . ..
Wow....funny how a deep stable of young arms goes in the tank rather quickly. A couple trades and a couple TJ surgeries and "poof" ther're all gone. Maybe we can bring back Matt Chico to fill in at AAA
I like Revere from the standpoint that he is a pest in the lineup like Juan Pierre and those types of players drive pitchers crazy.
Considering that the Nats got beat in Game 5 by--among other things--stolen bases I'm not going to trash Rovere too much until we see how he affects the pitchers. ooops, Ghost, same thought.
BigCat--yes. That's why the current "moneyball" thinking is develop hitters, trade for pitchers. Obviously, you can't do that exclusively, but Rizzo seems to have no fear of drafting pitchers, even pitcher with injuries, getting them close to major-league ready, and then cashing them in for other needs.
Revere is up there with Span in his contact%, he is also faster but you can't hope for any XBHs from him unless somehow CBP greatly favors him. Also I don't think you can expect his OBP to be great. I don't know Phillies OF that well since Pence and Victorino left so not sure how he ranks among their internal options. That's another lefty bat we have to face.
<>bold test<>
See, I am still an idiot!!
Revere is 24 and if he doesn't regress I think they did ok. Revere rarely walks but that 80+% steal rate is darn good when you're talking a 40 steal player. He's a poor man's Michael Bourn with a $18,000,000 savings per year and 6 years younger.
I still like Span better!
But I do love baseball so its not a total waste
I usually am not that concerned with other teams or players but what do you guys think Bourn will do now? If the Rangers re-sign Hamilton or trade for J. Upton does he have another team willing to pay what he is looking for? Has this type of thing happened before? I honestly thought he was going to be the first to sign and I was really hoping it would not be us. I am just surprised.
Go Nats!!
sjm, not to be argumentative but, no you aren't. :-)
You just need to put a "b" (without the quotation marks) inside the first set of elbow brackets and a "/b" (again, without the quotation marks) inside the second set. For italics, you'd replace each "b" with an "i". The first bracketed letter turns on the code, and repeating the letter with a backslash in front of it turns off the code. We'll save hyperlinks for another time. (btw, hope your grandson is doing well. :-))
sjm308 said...
<>bold test<>
December 06, 2012 3:07 PM
sjm308 said...
See, I am still an idiot!!
December 06, 2012 3:07 PM
Atta way, NatsJack!
SJM, the Yankees should trade Granderson and sign Bourn. They will plug some holes with trading Grandy and get the leadoff man, speed and defense in Bourn.
Bold
Whoooo Hoooo!!
1A - grandson is great and thanks for asking as well as the lesson - I promise not to use the bold ever in a mean or negative way
bold
hehehehe (rubs his hands together)
Someday, after the apocalypse, folk songs will be sung about the Wanton Escalation of the Bold Fonts, and the Dreadful Carnage Which Followed....
See? I knew you could do it, sjm! UnkyD, too. You guys are all awesome. :-)
There's not much time left, NatsJack. Use it wisely. :-)
By the way, eHay2k: cheers back at you!! and well stated in a gentle but clear way.
Or should I say CHEERS
italics
Nicely done, SC.
CHAINSAW
Sweet, SJM, hope the future Nat is doing well. As you can see, I am practicing my bold fonts with his nickname.
1A.. you need to teach indexing as well. Would make my life so much easier.
Ghost, while i agree that Revere will be a night mare on the base paths, who is the rest of the Phillies OF? And if they get Young, he is a butcher in the field.
Note to Nats coaching staff: Work on the Pick off moves and the time it takes the pitchers to throw the dang ball! Stop the other teams running game.
Wow - 154 comments since 11 am? And it's the off-season? And the Nats didn't make a major move today? I will have to skim for the highlights. Minor leaguers are gone, Revere signed with Philly and that's not terrible but he is pretty good. About right for now? Am I caught up? Oh - and sjm308 loves being a grandpa. So cool.
Michele, indexing is a bit more complicated, but maybe some day. :-)
I think you're caught up, swami. I suppose there will be results from the Haren physical at some point. Oh, and RZ had grilled cheese and pickles to eat. I think that's about it.
"They don't need Bernadina and since he is still young and has major league experience he should be a valuable commodity."
I think it was NatsLady who suggested, last month, that Bernie and Morse could be packaged for a starting pitcher. Rizzo could still do it, but for some good young prospects, instead. The Mariners are rumored to want the Beast back, and if they don't get Hamilton, they may be willing to settle for Bernie.
Peric, only 21 comments since 9:30 this morning. Congratulations. You seem to be taking the loss of Sandy Koufax Rosenbaum very well.
Revere is a pretty good player (outstanding defensively) and he upgrades the Phills. I don't know much about the minor league pitcher they gave away but Worley is nothing special.
Who are their starters now? Doc,Lee,Hammels, Kendrick, ?
If Doc is his old self they will be pretty good; lineup is still old and gimpy though. Should be well behind the Nats.
Laddie,
Bernie was in the perfect spot for the Nats last year; 4th outfielder/pinch hitter is where he belongs. If he plays too often his weaknesses are exposed; I don't think any one views him as an every day solution with the possible exception of the Houston Astros.
Morse definitely has a bat that can play in the middle of any one's order but with only 1 year of control and no good defensive position his value is also not sky high.
MicheleS, the key with guys like Revere is making sure they never get on base with less than 2 outs.
Ghost, my thought precisely. That is how you defend against no-power slap hitters with speed, use that great infield. So we need to keep that great infield and throw the money from the Rule 5 guys into the ALR pot as Mark suggested.
JD -- morse's value is chiefly to AL team who think they can contend and value a one-year/walk year rental of a power bat.
Sunshine@3:56 -- Oy, don't start. As swami said, 154 comments and -- apart from some nice tidbits from NL and Ghost -- not missing much.
I don't think I suggest Morse would get us a SP. I think he will and should go for prospects. No rush, though. Rizzo will wait until the big pieces fall, and see what is leftover. And he may be with us anyway if ALR doesn't sign, so speculation is just that.
At this point it seems to me the Rule 5 draft is much ado about nothing. The Nats lost two players, but for good reasons. Rosenbaum is "Lannan Lite" - and the Nationals just dumped the actual Lannan last week. Kobernus can run like the wind, but doesn't hit much and hardly walks at all (19 BBs in 366 plate appearances last year was only 2 off his career best 21 BBs in 2011!). Yes, you can't coach speed - but you can't steal first either.
On the Philberts acquiring Revere, I think Revere is an OK ballplayer. It's giving up both Worley and May that I don't understand. They paid more for Revere than the Nats paid for Span, and I'd rather have Span.
I still think it's 50/50 whether Morse or ALR is at 1b for the Nats on Opening Day. Rizzo isn't going over two years, and he shouldn't; between Morse and Moore the Nats will be fine at 1b regardless. Morse is at least as good an offensive player as ALR. ALR is clearly better defensively, but Morse is cheaper both in $$ and in years. And letting ALR walk nets a draft pick.
Honestly I'd prefer Morse (I think he has more upside, where ALR is likely to regress, though not too severely). But I understand being willing to move a bit to keep a steady hand at 1b and in the clubhouse. But not TOO much. Hold the line, Rizzo!
MicheleS:
Have not used Chainsaw since 11/25. Parents are a little testy now that he is "real". I loved it however.
Sunshine - one of the great things about this blog, and I am being very serious, is how several people on here just like to have fun and you are one of those. Yes, its serious business to be a fan but baseball is a game and games should be fun. The malox and bourbon branch of NatsInsider is all about the fun as well as learning something every now and then.
I am torn on the Morse/LaRoche situation. I am leaning toward LaRoche since we would have, in my mind, the best defensive team in baseball. But, I am going to really miss Morse and his outward display of how much he loves the game. I guess we can't keep them both but I would love that.
Thanks again MicheleS and Swami, you are correct sir.
... some talk up this way of Dickey going to the Blue Jays. I doubt that; he's too old. But anyway, it brought up a question in my mind. Any of you guys out there pitchers?
... so here's my question: why is the knuckleball, as a pitch, resigned to knuckleball pitchers only? Why isn't a knuckleball a good pitch for anyone to add to their arsenal? Seems to me it might even be more effective if the batter doesn't know it's coming ... but it might.
... just wondering.
Go Nats!
as far as I know, it is not easy to throw. dickey had to give up learning everything else and just concentrate on knuckle for few years before he got it.
How long is this physical taking? Seriously? I was kind of hoping for a press conference.
Michelles,
Relax; it's going to be fine.
Here is a question; if LaRoche doesn't sign do we try to extend the Beast?
Thought: I'm for keeping Espi b/c I think he very possibly could have a breakout season this year--but even if he doesn't--what a great glove and arm at 2B. SOs kill us I know but I'd hate to see him go.
John C: nice clear cogent post. Makes me not care so much if we lost ALR, although I hope we keep him.
1A--just in case I ever want to thermonuke somebody on this blog, how do it put italics in bold?
RDN, haven't ever tried it on here but I believe you'd just enclosed the "b" in brackets, then the "i" in brackets next to it, and the same for the closing (with the backslash added).
Hey, that coding does work on here.
Would also be interested in hearing Haren's results. I guess we'll know when we know. Wonder whether he likes grilled cheese and pickles?
sjm, my nephew, whose parents were taking a while to name him after his birth, was dubbed "Throckmorton" by my husband in the meantime. That doesn't appear on his birth certificate, however. They opted to name him after his dad instead. Go figure.
er, "enclose"
On another note, is the Tweeter feed gadget at the top right side of the page working for others? All I see is an error message these days.
Thanks 1A. As you can see from the type, I'm still in a peaceful mood!
And 1A forgot to say I always appreciate your posts. Lots of good eggs on this site who are also knowledgeable and very generous.
Speaking of press conferences - shouldn't there be one soon to introduce Span? Maybe they are waiting to do it with both players? Execs are back now. I know that they are very scripted, but it makes it seem more real.
Re knuckleball: second what FS said, most pitchers can't learn it. And we know that because they all try, if only screwing around with it. I should say, you can learn to throw it, but throwing it well, with any consistency and enough control to approximate a strike, is rare.
You're welcome, RDN. Peaceful is good. Thanks for your kind words as well. Agreed that there are lots of great folks on this site.
Good point on the presser, swami.
If Haren is in town for the physical anyway (I think they said it would be in DC?), then it seems like they might try to co-ordinate a joint press conference for both Span and Haren (assuming good results).
lol @Natsjack on catching knuckleballers.
SCNatsFan said...
Here is a question; if LaRoche doesn't sign do we try to extend the Beast?
No. Rizzo wants roster flexibility at 1B starting NLT 2015. That's why he will only give ALR two years. That means he would only want to extend Morse for one additional year. Morse will be a FA after 2013. He'll want more years than that.
Feel Wood....a question. If Werth was in his last year of a contract, who would you take, him or Morse.
With Milone and Rosenbaum gone, I hope Kylin Turnbull develops.
He's the 6'5 lefty the Nats drafted in 2011. He got knocked around a bit in Hagerstown this year, but he's got an opportunity.
You never know. Randy Tomlin did wonders for Brad Peacock.
P.S. Congrats to Danny, who gets a chance to reach the Show.
BigCat said...
Feel Wood....a question. If Werth was in his last year of a contract, who would you take, him or Morse.
That's a hypothetical question. It will never happen in real life. So who cares?
natscan reduxit said...
... some talk up this way of Dickey going to the Blue Jays. I doubt that; he's too old. But anyway, it brought up a question in my mind. Any of you guys out there pitchers?
... so here's my question: why is the knuckleball, as a pitch, resigned to knuckleball pitchers only? Why isn't a knuckleball a good pitch for anyone to add to their arsenal? Seems to me it might even be more effective if the batter doesn't know it's coming ... but it might.
... just wondering.
Go Nats!
December 06, 2012 5:56 PM
natscan, I used to be a pitcher and I had a knuckleball in my arsenal. The problem most of us have with the knuckler is that it is difficult to throw consistently. You have two things to master, the grip and the release. The grip is not with the knuckles, of course, but with the finger tips. The fingertips have to dig straight down into the ball with some pressure. However, as you release the ball, you have to (not easy to explain) flair your fingers and thumb outward so as not to impart spin to the ball. This is hard to do consistently. Some days I could throw the ball as hard as I wanted and it would not rotate even once...perfectly still, and it would break like crazy. Other days I could not get a feel for the release and the ball would do a slow spin and not break at all. As others said above, it is also difficult to control for strikes, so if you're only throwing it now and then, even if its working great, the batters just spit on it knowing its probably going to be a ball. I only used one grip (I didn't know any better) but I understand Dickey uses more than one grip to get the ball to do as he commands. Being able to throw the knuckler for strikes is what makes him so devastating.
I like hypotheticals Big Cat and its an interesting thought. I am thinking they both have pluses but to me, the key might be that Morse is younger so if I could only keep one and it was for just one year I might take Morse. If I had a chance to just sign either for two years I might gamble that Werth has two more good years left.
Just got back from a Natalie McMaster concert of Cape Breton fiddle tunes. She didn't give a shout out to the old Expos but her drummer was from Montreal.
Go Nats!!
It's Friday morning. Did Haren pass his physical?
Not trying to change the subject......OK, maybe I am.
Anyone making Spring Training plans yet? I made it to Viera for two games last season (1st ST for me) and really enjoyed it. Planning to make it again this coming season.
MZ's ST Primer was very informative and helpful.
Rizzo has us in such a good situation as far as 1b is concerned.
I assume, as most here do, that we are not going to keep both ALR and orse.
With ALR we get great defense and very good offense. With Morse we get very good defense and great offense.
If we lose ALR we get a draft pick. I thought it was a sandwich pick but many here have been saying it would be the 23rd.
If we lose Morse we get whatever we can get in a trade.
Based only on the post departure results I put a light thumb on the scale for keeping ALR.
Let's Play Two!
Iowa Nats fan:
I haven't finalized it yet, but I plan to catch a couple of games in Viera. Given the distances involved, traveling to the away games can be tiring. When the club is on the road it can be more relaxing to go to the beach or check out other attractions on the Space Coast.
Not sure whether or not I'll make ST this year.
In other news, new post.
McGeary--what a perfect symbol of the wasted Bowden years!
McGeary--what a perfect symbol of the wasted Bowden years!
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