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US Presswire photo The Nats went 18-14 during their just-completed stretch against East division foes. |
Well, that stretch -- it wound up as only 32 games because of a rainout against the Braves -- finally came to an end yesterday in Baltimore. And what did we learn about the Nationals throughout it all?
If anything, we learned this club is remarkably consistent, and that should be a harbinger of things to come.
When the stretch began on May 18, the Nationals were 23-15, a half-game back of Atlanta in the NL East. Their pitching staff boasted a 2.94 ERA and 1.11 WHIP, best in the majors. Their lineup had produced a .243 batting average, .316 on-base percentage and .699 OPS, ranking in the bottom third of the league.
How did they do during this stretch? Well, their record was 18-14, which was good enough to catapult themselves into first place and a 3 1/2-game lead over the Mets. Their pitching staff, meanwhile, posted a 2.96 ERA and 1.20 WHIP, still best in the majors. And that lineup continued to struggle, hitting a collective .231 with a .288 on-base percentage and .680 OPS that still ranks among the lowest in the league.
Honestly, there's not that much difference between the way the Nationals performed during their first 38 games and during these latest 32 games. Which should be viewed as an encouraging sign.
Against tough competition every single night, they continue to pitch better than anyone else in the sport. Sure, it would be nice if that lineup produced just a bit more and gave the pitching staff a little bit of cushion -- that would've come in handy during yesterday's 2-1 loss at Camden Yards -- but this is a team that nearly halfway through the season has established it can win in spite of its sub-par offense.
If there's been one disturbing trend, it's probably the Nationals' overall struggles against baseball's other elite clubs. The three best teams they've played this season are the Yankees, Dodgers and Orioles. Their record against those three clubs is 2-10. Against everyone else in the sport, they're 39-19.
The good news is that they're beating the teams they're supposed to beat. The bad news is they're not beating the kind of teams that might stand in their way come October.
Then again, if the worst complaint Nationals fans have right now is that their team looks good enough to get to October (but perhaps not good to get through October), this franchise has made some gargantuan strides over the last 70 games.
198 comments:
Ha, Mark. Was just posting the same thought on the earlier thread!
The early excuses are gone (Nats only won because of soft schedule, pitching will normalize, the AL East will kill them, etc.).
The Nats have shown they can play against tough opponents--even against the "elite" teams it's not as if they were blown away, they were in almost every game.
The pitching has held, and doesn't show signs of fading (starters and 'pen).
Injuries and slumps have dogged the offense but haven't transferred over to the defense. Davey and Rizzo are pruning out the under-performers as guys return from the DL.
At the deadline, you'd like to have another medium-level OF bat (but where would he play?) and a starting pitcher for when Stras gets shut down. If the price for either is too high, go with what we got.
Like a lot of Nats' fans, I'm still having a hard time believing that Nats'offense is as bad as the stats suggest. I just thought there would be more production at this stage.
Davey is an offensive manager. Surprise, surprise, he has the best pitching staff in MLB and one of the worst hitting teams.
Matt Capps going on the DL.
And Mark didn't even address the injuries, which is quite remarkable since every other team with the same issues is shouting it to the rooftops. Our DL time and the names involved should have crippled this team and it didn't. That in itself is huge. One goes down, one steps up. That is what has saved us. Ramos down - Jesus steps up. Storen down - Clip steps up.Werth down, Harper steps up. Just think about the names on that list and what affect that could have had on the Nats. It's ridiculous how they have overcome it. Playing against elite teams with winning records you always have a ready excuse, though -- the pitcher was good, the other offense is good, etc. etc. No excuses this week - well maybe altitude and heat, but no baseball excuses are available. Gio and Det tend to get emotional when calls don't go their way early - they need to conserve their energy and stay calm. Should be an interesting week.
Saw a stat on last night's ESPN game: Only 3 teams (Red Sox, Yankees, Padres) have had more games lost to injury than the Nats. As I recall, it was more than 300 games -- but my memory ain't what it used to be.
Thanks for the stats Mark. I really think we need to bench the players that are not producing. you have Moore on the bench ready to produce. and guys like Bernadina aren't that bad either.
I just read something saying the Rockies should trade CarGo for prospects and pitchers. Nats should be takers?
And getting Werth and DeRosa is definitely NOT going to make things better, in fact, things could take a turn for the worst.
Playing young talent that works hard and is ready is what made Davey Johnson successful at the end of last season. Playing over paid veterans instead is a major mistake.
As Chien-Ming Wang has proven. As Mark DeRosa has proven. As Brad Lidge has proven, and as Werth continues to prove. C'mon Davey!?
I do not count Zimmerman in this as when the guy is healthy he hits. At this point they have to stop making it a priority to find ways to keep Zim in the lineup. He's still hurting cortisone shot or not. And find ways to get the guy well even if it means the DL because they need Zim's bat! Not Adam LaRoche's weak, futile bat from last season! Not another single's hitters bat because his shoulder isn't going to produce any XBH. The Nats need to come up with a plan to get Zim well as quickly as humanly possible. Not keep him in the lineup to his and the batting order's detriment.
Why would Rockies be interested in trading CarGo? He is under contract for like five years so even if they decide to trade, they will be asking for a lot. besides I don't see what position he will be playing long term with us (unless we get rid of Morse or ALR in next off-season). anyways, price will be too much and I highly doubt he is available.
Bryce Harper clearly is killing the ball on the road. Not sure why he doesn't do as well in Nats Park. His road splits are .313/.373/.525/.898 Yesterday was a good sign for Bryce with 2 hits including that hustle double.
Bryce hits for more power in day games but his BA is almost identical between day and night games .283 vs .287
This is what I found interesting about Bryce. He is "Mr. Sunday" and this isn't a small sample size as he has played about 9 weeks now and 9 Sundays and has started 8 games as he sat on June 10th and had that memorable pinch-hit walk and scored the winning run from 1st on Bernadina's double.
Every Sunday he has started he has 2 hits except that 1st Sunday in LA where he went 1 for 3 with a walk.
His Sunday Batting Average is exactly .500 and his OBP is .583
Most Sunday games have been day games and he isn't hitting better in day games overall. Whatever Bryce is doing on Sunday and on road games he needs to try to replicate to all other days of the week and games at Nats Park.
I just read something saying the Rockies should trade CarGo for prospects and pitchers. Nats should be takers?
Where would you put him? With Werth coming back? Where do you play Lombardozzi? Tyler Moore?
But he is a left-handed power bat.
I think that would make sense if they trade LaRoche and move Zim to first base. It would mean Harper would be permanently ensconced in CF at least for this season.
I'd rather see what Corey Brown can do. He is already here. He is hitting in AAA Syracuse, has a left-handed bat and can play CF possibly better than anyone the Nats currently have on the roster.
Luke Erickson has named H. Rodriguez "El Infarto" -- the Heart Attack -- appropriately and not in a good way. Anyone know when his "rehab" assignment is up? He apparently is still not reliable (4 BB in four innings, two last night in one inning). Would hate to have to option a guy w/ a 1.93 ERA in order to make room for El Infarto and end up overworking the other members of the bullpen.
As it stands, the worst WHIP among the top 11 on the staff as currently constituted is 1.27. That will keep the Nats in a lot of games the rest of the way.
alexva said...
@Ghost, thankfully he is not "Mr. Transit of Venus"
June 25, 2012 10:39 AM
That is true! When you find certain patterns in a players stats like this with Bryce, there has to be some reasons why Bryce does better on Sunday day games than other day games and why he performs better on the road than at home.
He may not be aware of it himself.
Many players are better day hitters than night hitters and vice versa but I can't say I have ever seen players do better on certain days of the week except Ryan Zimmerman who seemed to have big games on Holidays.
Well if Zim goes to DL, it opens up a lot of chances for younger guys to play. You can call up Brown, have him and Moore switch on certain days, and then play Lombo at 3rd.
I also would be interested in seeing Moore and Brown play more. ALR could use a breather (he is coming off an injury, after all.) LF has not been productive from a power perspective. Zimm needs a break - DL for 15 days now seems like a good move.
In other news, Nyjer Morgan got caught stealing 3b last night in the top of the ninth with 2 outs. I'm sure he was probably thinking "If I can get on third, then a sac fly brings me home!"
To Swami's post on a prior thread, I am so glad Nyjer is an Ex-Nat. I find it very hard to root for that guy.
Theophilus T. S. said...
Luke Erickson has named H. Rodriguez "El Infarto" -- the Heart Attack -- appropriately and not in a good way. Anyone know when his "rehab" assignment is up? He apparently is still not reliable (4 BB in four innings, two last night in one inning). Would hate to have to option a guy w/ a 1.93 ERA in order to make room for El Infarto and end up overworking the other members of the bullpen.
As it stands, the worst WHIP among the top 11 on the staff as currently constituted is 1.27. That will keep the Nats in a lot of games the rest of the way.
June 25, 2012 11:06 AM
I read that last night although I thought "El Infarto" had something to do with a gastrointestinal issue.
Not a fan of Henry's and not sure how you hide both Wang and Henry in the bullpen as neither right now seem dependable.
Its only a problem from a perspective of too much personnel. Both Wang and Henry have value but Wang comes with a pricetag.
Theo -- the rehab limit is 30 days after their first rehab appearance, which makes it roughly sometime in the third week of July. While I still like HRod's potential, the point you raise is what's staring the Nats in the face, which is that when Storen comes back (and leaving Wang aside as he's not really BP material) they have a great pen and no room for anyone else, and maybe possible that Kimball can come back by late July. Simply by process of elimination, I see HRod in a package with some other bench parts from a pitching-desperate AL team.
When you find certain patterns in a players stats like this with Bryce, there has to be some reasons why Bryce does better on Sunday day games than other day games and why he performs better on the road than at home.
The reason is small sample size. If you see the same patterns after he's been in the league a couple of years rather than a couple of months, then you might have something. Now it's just a random statistical quirk.
It's very easy to lose sight of the bigger picture, especially during a 32 game stretch like the one the Nats just had. Completing it with an 18-14 record would be considered a success by just about any team that goes through something similar.
They're building a sustainable contender, with 10 game improvements several years in a row now. If we do it again this year, we'll be about a 90-win team, and October will actually mean something. The crazy thing is that seems entirely possible, and perhaps likely given what we've seen so far.
The youngsters we've been calling up this season have shown more promise than any batch of rookies I could imagine. The front office is doing a lot of things right, from the draft scouts on up to Rizzo.
I'd love to see this lineup sustain a little more run support. Of course, I'd love to see a consistently healthy lineup also. Otherwise, I have very few complaints of any significance. What a difference just a couple of years makes.
Ghost -- I think you're right about both Wang and HRod. They're the kind of players, along with Shark (although his combination of speed, episodic defense and bat may give him some bench value for the Nats) that rebuilding teams try as salvage projects, which sometimes work out (see Morse, Michael). With their genuine though clearly iffy potential, I suspect Rizzo would rather see them in the AL.
No way Zimm is going on the DL, just look at his quotes and Davey's. No way Zimm is moving to first base, he is one of the top fielding 3rd basemen in all of baseball. Why would you weaken two positions.
I look at the transactions each day and am amazed how big a part injury plays in MLB. Today it was Starting pitching from the Red Sox & Rangers plus Capps from the Twins. I realize we have had lots of injuries as well and the good news for us is except for Ramos, the others are getting close to returning.
Keep the ball down this week lads.
Go Nats!!
NatsNut said...
I'm glad nobody is really calling for Burnett's head today. Maybe ya'll feel the same way I do - he has been completely awesome and will probably continue to be awesome. Holding that teeny lead was a little much to ask.
GYFNG!
Burnett has been awesome. He made 1 bad pitch with a man on base. It happens. 1 run leads are always fragile. It just points back to what happened Friday night to Jordan Zimmermann with his 1 run loss that the offense isn't doing their job scoring only 1 run twice this weekend.
Unfortunately, 1 or 2 posters wanted to put the blame on Friday solely on Jordan Zimmmermann. 2 runs over 7 innings is a 2.57 ERA and wins almost every time when the bullpen puts up a zero.
When you only score 1 run per game you will lose almost every time. Something has to give.
CarGo is available? It would likely cost a bigger package than what we paid for Gio.
Ross Detwiler, Ryan Mattheus, Jeff Kobernus, Alex Meyer and Brian Goodwin for Carlos Gonzales and Jeremy Guthrie.
Yep. I'd much rather have Steve Lombardozzi or Tyler Moore over Carlos Gonzalez. Why would anybody want that Rockies reject over our two studs.
I'm glad nobody is really calling for Burnett's head today. Maybe ya'll feel the same way I do - he has been completely awesome and will probably continue to be awesome. Holding that teeny lead was a little much to ask.
Just wish that the lamebrains here would give Gorzelanny the same benefit of the doubt. The guy is a legitimate major league starter and he has done the job he was asked to do in the bullpen. Not seeing him as much now that Mike Gonzalez has arrived. Maybe he replaces Strasburg down the road.
Ross Detwiler, Ryan Mattheus, Jeff Kobernus, Alex Meyer and Brian Goodwin for Carlos Gonzales and Jeremy Guthrie.
No thanks Orioles fan. Guthrie has been terrible and was demoted to the bullpen. No way they make that deal. More fantasy baseball from Birdland.
Steady Eddie said...
Ghost -- I think you're right about both Wang and HRod. They're the kind of players, along with Shark (although his combination of speed, episodic defense and bat may give him some bench value for the Nats) that rebuilding teams try as salvage projects, which sometimes work out (see Morse, Michael). With their genuine though clearly iffy potential, I suspect Rizzo would rather see them in the AL.
June 25, 2012 11:20 AM
Both players need a change of scenery. The AL would be a nice place. If Rizzo doesn't move swiftly, the bullpen will start to get overworked. We saw it last year when they tried to hide Henry and Broderick early in the season.
Where would you put [CarGo]? With Werth coming back? Where do you play Lombardozzi? Tyler Moore?
Ok, I'm trying hard not to respond to stuff like this, but this one is just too good.
CarGo is leading the league in runs and total bases. His slashline is .328/.385/.604. His OPS+ is 148. He has more homeruns and RBI than anyone on our team. He's a 26 year old superstar. Ok, ok, he plays half his games in Coors Field, but he still has an OPS+ of 127 in away games. But yes, Steve Lombardozzi (.263/.326/.338, OPS+ 82) might not get any more starts in LF if we acquired him. And Tyler Moore would probably have to back to the minors.
Where would I play him? Anywhere he wants. But I guess LF is his position. Hell, I'd happily get rid of Morse if we could have CarGo. But if we get him, Morse, Werth, and ALR can platoon and rotate amongst 1B and RF. Werth plays right and Morse at first against lefties. Morse ain RF and ALR at first against righties. Werth gives Harper a day off from time to time too, and plays late inning defense. That's not a big problem.
Now, are we going to get him? Of course not. The price will be way too high. But would I like to have him on our team? Is the Pope Catholic?
Or maybe that comment was just a parody. That would make more sense.
Rogieshan - Jeremy Guthrie? Are you kidding me?
The problem over the past 2 weeks is Lombo slumping and Zim slumping. You have holes in the leadoff and #3.
Maybe yesterday was a start for Zim. Lombo's 0-3 really hurt with a rare day of the #2 and #3 hitters both getting 2 hits a piece.
Tyler Moore needs more playing time now. Desi probably needs to go back to leadoff and Lombo needs to go back in the order.
Leadoff on this team for the past 3 years is the quickest way to get into a long slump.
How about Morse, Kannan, Wang and HRod For CarGo? I wouldn't make the trade if I was Colorado, but they need pitching, and carGo needs a spot here, so if this went down I could live with it.
Here are the first round picks that have been signed from 1-15 (Nats picked 16th, if you recall).
Player: Carlos Correa, HOU, 1st Overall
Player: Byron Buxton, MIN, 2nd Overall
Player: David Dahl, COL, 10th Overall
Player: Addison Russell, OAK, 11th Overall
Player: Gavin Cecchini, NYN, 12th Overall
Player: Courtney Hawkins, CHA, 13th Overall
Player: Tyler Naquin, CLE, 15th Overall
Not sure who the NYN and CHA's are, but I got the info from fangraphs.com
No way Zimm is going on the DL, just look at his quotes and Davey's. No way Zimm is moving to first base, he is one of the top fielding 3rd basemen in all of baseball. Why would you weaken two positions.
If his average batting 3rd drops to .200? He is close now? Look at his ISO? The number of XBH's? Hell yes he will go on the DL TODAY if it means a complete recovery in time to get him for meaningful games in August and September!
As for the move to first base. Dude, Boz himself has also suggested it. This is the second year in a row that an injury has drastically decreased Zimmerman's offensive production. I am willing to bet you good money that the better athlete, Danny Espinosa, could play that position (third base) at just as high a level, maybe even higher. 23 year old prospect Carlos Rivero isn't bad there as well. And there perhaps is eventually Anthony Rendon.
Bottom line they need Zim's bat. Not the glove as much since the use of the glove and sliding leads to a lack of production offensively! The next injury could make him into Wil Nieves (albeit Nieves is hitting better this season for Colorado).
Not sure who the NYN and CHA's are, but I got the info from fangraphs.com
New York National League and Chicago American League.
Lots to agree with here and first on my list is Peric and his praise of Gorzo. He really is underappreciated, at least on this blog. I am sure Davey realizes his value and it would not surprise me to see him start a few games in Sept/Oct. when SS is shut down. For the last few years, both here and with the Cubs he shuttled between the pen and starting and I don't think he has ever complained.
Second, and I never thought this until reading some of the thoughts here: it actually does make sense to trade HRod(and man have I supported him ever since the trade!) and Wang. I honestly think that is a great idea and they actually both have value that a team looking to make the playoffs might consider. Don't really care who we get but I would prefer prospects. That way we can bring up Storen, Kimball when he is ready and no one needs to go down.
Third - Have to go with 222 here - Cargo would immediately be our best offensive player and just think what would happen if he hit 3rd behind Harper. You have Morse, LaRoche, Desmond, Zimm and Espinosa after that. Its a no-brainer to me but I think they will want way too much so its also a no-brainer that the deal does not get made. Still fun to play fake GM.
Go Nats and thanks for all the great thoughts today people
How about Morse, Kannan, Wang and HRod For CarGo? I wouldn't make the trade if I was Colorado, but they need pitching, and carGo needs a spot here, so if this went down I could live with it.
The Rockies want young prospects. CarGo is playing in Coors Field. Not worth the prospects. The only thing that's interesting is the left-handed bat. The problem is there's a certain 1st round pick named Brian Goodwin who is tearing up A ball at Hagerstown. There's another named Corey Brown in AAA Syracuse. The Nats seem to do better going more toward Harper and further from Werth age wise.
i think there's no chance cargo is coming here, but peric... are you seriously asking "where do you play Lombardozzi? Tyler Moore?" in the conversation about getting one of the top players in the game?
i like lombardozzi and moore, but that's just silly.
I'm not an Orioles fan. And of course it's a fantasy-induced proposal (just like the idea of Gonzales being available itself), that's why I'm sitting here tapping on my keyboard!
Taking on a salary (Guthrie's) is simply what a GM often does to sweeten an offer. I'm merely suggesting that in order to acquire a player like Gonzales, you better be prepared to empty the farm. AGAIN.
Ghost Of Steve M., I still think Harper will eventually be the leadoff hitter. I think Desmond is maturing at a quicker pace batting in the middle of the lineup.
CarGo is signed until 2018. He is 26. And Colorado is trading him for young prospects and pitching? That seems pretty stupid even for a fantasy baseball nut.
where do you play Lombardozzi? Tyler Moore?" in the conversation about getting one of the top players in the game?
I happen to strongly agree with Davey, like to get talent from within. Otherwise why not sign Prince Fielder? They surely could use his bat right now.
So, yes, I'd rather see Corey Brown and Brian Goodwin get first dibs at that slot. Both are better fielders with more speed.
We made it through the Gauntlet and we are still in FIRST FRICKIN PLACE!!
NatsLady you nailed it in post #1.
One-N Zim should be on the DL retroactive to June 1. When he claimed he was healthy I was really annoyed w/ his failure to make any progress w/ his hitting. Now that he admits he is not/has not been healthy I think I'm even more annoyed that he didn't fess up and start getting treatment rather than pull down the rest of the team in the three-spot. If Johnson continues to put him the three-spot while continuing to struggle and trying to avoid the inevitable I'm going to be really annoyed w/ Johnson also. Zimmerman's string of double plays and Strike 3s looking probably cost them at least a couple of games, will probably cost them 2-3 more until he gets back from the DL -- IF he gets back from the deal in any shape to contribute. By the end of the year that could cost them the Division title and maybe even the playoffs. The season could go down the crapper because Zimmerman thought he was more invaluable than he actually is.
well, they did try to sign Fielder. The price (esp. years) was astronomical when Detroit came in the picture, but prior to that...
Ghost Of Steve M., I still think Harper will eventually be the leadoff hitter.
I'm betting on Corey Brown who is faster and potentially as talented as an Upton or a Borjous. Brown was also a very high first round pick. Harper looks like a #3 hitter to me and a damned good one. Now, if only Brian Goodwin were a bit further along ... if it weren't for Werth they could have an entirely left-handed outfield filled to the brim with athleticism. I like that idea.
I see Zim at first base in the future. Rendon at second or third base (if his two surgically repaired broken ankles hold up) ...
Its a juggling act.
Theo, Zim can't go on the DL "retroactive" to June 1. He played yesterday. If he doesn't play in Col, and then on June 29 they decide to put him on the DL, it would be "retroactive" to June 24.
If for some reason they want to trade CarGo and don't want Morse as part of the deal, How about Corey Brown, Alex Meyers and Hrod Throw in Lannan so they can have a starter this year since they only have 4.
Feel Wood said...
The reason is small sample size. If you see the same patterns after he's been in the league a couple of years rather than a couple of months, then you might have something. Now it's just a random statistical quirk.
Bryce has now appeared in 50 games which is almost 1/3 of the season which isn't a small sample size. 9 games is a small sample size on its own. Patterns out of a 1/3 of the season for him makes it interesting. I have been following it for a while and wanted to bring it up.
I don't see it as a statistical quirk just like I don't think that the fact he hits lefties better than RH is a quirk or hits better on the road than at home and that 7 of his 15 multi-hit games have been on Sundays.
The tests just keep on coming. I would think 3 of 4 in Colorado would be expected, and then its on to Atlanta before coming home to face the Giants and Rockies again. After the allstar break they'll face a tough 18 game stretch without a day off. I think a better idea of where the Nats stand will come to light after that. It promises to be challenging and hopefully rewarding.
Nats are facing 3 consecutive LHP starters for Colorado to open the series: Francis, Friedric, & Outman. I hope that translates to 3 starts for Moore (I would expect LaRoche to get an off day in the midst of the team's 16 games w/o a day off).
I'm curious to see how Moore would do playing consecutive days. Since this is his 2nd cup o coffee, there are still some questions on him, so it'd be nice to get some answers as he may be an every day player for the club sometime next yr.
If for some reason they want to trade CarGo and don't want Morse as part of the deal, How about Corey Brown, Alex Meyers and Hrod Throw in Lannan so they can have a starter this year since they only have 4.
That's about as silly a fantasy swap as I've seen ... its getting ridiculous now.
There is no way the Nats give up Meyer (not Meyers btw). There is no way the Rockies give up 26 year old CarGo unless it is for a Meyer and probably a guy like Solis or Purke.
Now, the question is who walks away first? Its Rizzo hands down.
BY the way no way Colorado is trading CarGo. But if they do, I would try and see what I could do.
Manasass, Nathan Karns is 24 and pitching in A-ball (yes, he's having a good year). I believe he only projects to be a middle reliever or fifth start at best. I don't know if Wang is of any value to the Rockies, as he is a pending free agent. HRod is disposable, in my opinion. But again, his stock is tumbling fast. Morse is an interesting suggestion. He could be the center piece to build this trade on, provided Rizzo is willing to include a couple of top-five prospects from the system.
well, they did try to sign Fielder. The price (esp. years) was astronomical when Detroit came in the picture, but prior to that...
In the aftermath it sounded to me as if Fielder wanted it more than the Nats did. Guess Rizzo and brain trust want athleticism NOT single dimensional players. Players such as Bryce Harper, Danny Espinosa, Corey Brown, Brian Goodwin, Michael Taylor, Destin Hood, etc.
peric, that's very possible. It's too bad the way Detroit is looking right now, maybe he foresaw it. They could recover, though, stranger things have happened.
rogieshan said...
Ghost Of Steve M., I still think Harper will eventually be the leadoff hitter. I think Desmond is maturing at a quicker pace batting in the middle of the lineup.
June 25, 2012 11:44 AM
Leadoff is a black hole here and has been except for 2006 with Soriano and briefly in 2009 with NM. Not sure anyone is ready to risk Harper in leadoff.
While Corey Brown is the player I would most like to see promoted, I'm also not ready to throw him into leadoff as he still doesn't have a MLB hit. He sure can bunt better than Lombardozzi though.
Send Zim to the DL as it will be best for him and hopefully the team for a long rest to the All Star break and let DeRosa play and see if DeRosa is MLB quality. If not, Lombo will have to play 3B until Tracy or Zim are ready.
Against LH pitching
Espi 2B
Harper CF
Morse RF
LaRoche 1B
Moore LF
Desi SS
DeRosa 3B
Flores C
Against RH pitching
Desi SS
Harper CF
Morse RF
LaRoche 1B
Corey Brown LF
Lombo 2B
DeRosa 3B
Flores C
Nats Lady -- you utterly miss the point. Zimmerman had no business being activated until absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt certifiably healthy -- and if they activated him out of ignorance he should have fessed up and sat down rather than let all of the team's offense leak out of the hole in the lineup. If Zimmerman had sought treatment necessary to his recovery, this team would probably have 2-3 more wins than it did while he was impersonating a Major League hitter. They would have been better off with Lombardozzi, Tracy, Alberto Gonzalez or Vinny Castilla at 3B.
believe he only projects to be a middle reliever or fifth start at best.
Underwhelming to say the least. Actually, both Brian Oliver and Luke Erickson (of NatsFarmAuthority and NationalsProspects) projected him as a closer. NOT middle relief.
The test is Potomac. So far he is looking like a budding major league starter. But he is an older prospect so he has to move rapidly through. He should be in AA/AAA by now were it now for the surgery he had right after he was drafted. He was an overslot 12th rounder and a Sickel's sleeper that year.
Karns is way too talented to end up in middle relief. Believe it.
I haven't jumped in on this CarGo talk yet. Where did all the CarGo trade talk begin? Is this a rumor started here or is there any credible leads on this?
The Rox would be foolish to trade CarGo for anything short of JZ'nn. They need to extend him like Pittsburgh did with McCutch and build the team around him or they will have NO fan base!
OTOH, there is fool born every day and some of them grow up to be actual GM's.
Ghost, there are actual rumors/proposals out there...out there is what I call them...
OK, Theo, sorry if I misunderstood your point.
DeRosa 3B
The guy went 0 for 4 in Potomac? And he can't move anymore? You're joking right?
The Rox would be foolish to trade CarGo for anything short of JZ'nn.
And the Nats haven't extended him yet.
Rizzo might offer Lannan and Rosenbaum for him. Doubt the Rockies would take it given that both have had mixed results in the minors so far. With Purke and Solis down Karns looks like the up-and-comer at this point other than Karns there is the resurgent Jeff Mandel.
i don't know that derosa is an answer, but you say "the guy went 0 for 4 in potomac" like that's the definitive answer to whether he can hit or not. as if no major league player has ever gone 0-4 in a class A rehab game. i'm sure there are lots of better arguments than that as to why he might not be a good solution.
Cargo isn't going anywhere...end of story. Do you really think the Rockies are going to trade a guy who is 26 and just beginning to live up to his potential. He will be an MVP candidate for years to come and people are throwing out names like Meyer, Solis, Purke, Wang and HRod. If I am the Rockies, the Nationals could offer Jordan Zimmermann, Morse, and Purke and I still would laugh in their face.
i don't know that derosa is an answer, but you say "the guy went 0 for 4 in potomac" like that's the definitive answer to whether he can hit or not.
Pretty much every single other major leaguer that rehabbed there (other than 0 for 3 Carlos Maldonado) raked.
Just for the record DeRosa is still batting .083.
this team would probably have 2-3 more wins than it did while he was impersonating a Major League hitter.
Which would have leaked right back into the loss column with another third baseman not making the plays in all these close games that Zim has.
ah, ok, peric. i didn't realize you went back and checked every major league player that's rehabbed in potomac and nobody else every had an 0-fer besides maldonado. my bad.
peric said...
Just for the record DeRosa is still batting .083.
June 25, 2012 12:20 PM
Yes, and Rizzo will give him another opportunity most likely.
However, Theo, I think I'm still going to argue your point. I'm not ready to convict RZ of being either selfish or self-inflated.
(1) It's human nature to think it's going to feel better tomorrow, or that you can play through it. I have a great orthopedist and it's taken him FIVE years to admit my knee ain't going to improve after three surgeries, zillions of hours of therapy and various medications.
(2) I think if Davey and RZ get creative this is what they can do:
- Forget hitting for power, just forget it. It's not there and trying for it just leads to long fly balls.
- Use your batter's eye. Hit for average (singles) and OPS (walks). For this year, be one of those pesty guys who fouls off a dozen pitches and draws a walk, or at the very least tires out the pitcher in the heat of summer.
- Work on leg conditioning and strengthening. Get faster, steal some bases, hustle for the double like Bryce does. If your shoulder's not working, make your legs and lower body take over.
NatsLady said...
Ghost, there are actual rumors/proposals out there...out there is what I call them...
June 25, 2012 12:08 PM
That's what I thought. Not worth discussing at this point.
DeRosa has been on the Disabled List since late April, IIRC, and was hurt before that (hence the DL). Not sure what "still hitting .083" [.081, actually] means.
Sorry, OPS s/be OBP. Typed too fast.
Which would have leaked right back into the loss column with another third baseman not making the plays in all these close games that Zim has.
I think both Espinosa (and Rivero for that matter) might do better. In Espinosa's case it could be a lot better. But neither has Zim's bat. At least not yet.
The bat is the big reason Zim is in the lineup. And Natslady if Zim is a singles hitter he needs to bat seventh not third in the lineup. As for Harper hustle? NO. He is already injured. They need to do whatever it takes to get that bat well again. Bottom line. Just like they did last season.
No today, but quite a few times recently, posters have said that they think Lombo will never be more than a utility guy, Tyler Moore is blocked, etc. This is way too early to count rookies out as far as what kind of future they can have. Clip was tossed aside by the Yankees, Morse by Seattle, Flores by the Mets. They were not given much of a chance of being everyday players. I worry about Lombo not learning to hit from both sides in the bigs, I worry that Tyler Moore isn't playing enough. I would hate to see their development stopped because of lack of playing time and experience. At some point they made need a change of scenery and an opportunity to play. That's one of the reasons the A's/Nats trade was a good one - Milone would have no chance to pitch in the majors here and Norrs was blocked ---before the catchers started dropping like flies.
NatsLady said...
However, Theo, I think I'm still going to argue your point. I'm not ready to convict RZ of being either selfish or self-inflated.
(1) It's human nature to think it's going to feel better tomorrow, or that you can play through it. I have a great orthopedist and it's taken him FIVE years to admit my knee ain't going to improve after three surgeries, zillions of hours of therapy and various medications.
(2) I think if Davey and RZ get creative this is what they can do:
- Forget hitting for power, just forget it. It's not there and trying for it just leads to long fly balls.
- Use your batter's eye. Hit for average (singles) and OPS (walks). For this year, be one of those pesty guys who fouls off a dozen pitches and draws a walk, or at the very least tires out the pitcher in the heat of summer.
- Work on leg conditioning and strengthening. Get faster, steal some bases, hustle for the double like Bryce does. If your shoulder's not working, make your legs and lower body take over.
June 25, 2012 12:24 PM
I could argue the merits of what you wrote and what Theo wrote.
I said this weeks ago that Zim didn't look right and wrote against the wind of change here that "maybe" Zim should be moved down in the batting order and I was beseiged with negativity for even suggesting it.
Clearly I was right then. If we take some of NatsLady's thoughts that Zim isn't going to hit for power (except for the occasional HR that finds its way into the 1st few rows) it becomes clear he has to move down in the order as the #3 is reserved for a power RBI guy and generally your team's best hitter who happens to be Bryce Harper. Just not sure I would do that to Bryce at this point in time.
Not sure what "still hitting .083" [.081, actually] means.
Either way DeRosa is waaaaaaaay sub Mendoza. And even worst in Potomac right now.
Correction (for Danger Sofa Pillow). DeRosa is batting .091 in Potomac. He is 1 for 11. Slightly better than .081 but still pathetic made worst by the fact its in A+ Potomac.
NatsLady --
The guy's getting paid gazillions of dollars to be a team player. I'm not giving him an inch. He could have been doing all of the things you suggest that he should do going forward. Nada. And while he was on the DL the last time, he could have done something about that extra couple of inches he's carrying around his middle, which isn't helping with the speed thing -- or anything else I can see, either. He's starting to look like Miguel Cabrera and hit like Xavier Nady -- not a good combination.
Drew Storen said it perfectly, "What have you done for me lately".
Besides yesterday, Zim hasn't helped the team overall. He has hurt the team. Not sure if Theo's -2 or -3 in losses vs wins is accurate because we will never know but Davey is still putting Espi out there and he has a negative WAR and Henry was trotted out and cost the team a few wins most likely and with all that said, the team is still in 1st place.
The issue is that the Nats can't keep settling for the status quo as the competition is generally in a mode of continual improvement. That formula usually doesn't work and Rizzo recently made some good moves in DFAing Lidge and demoting Wang.
Still more moves to make and the Zim issue isn't going away.
No, I wouldn't move Bryce or Zim down. If you move Zim down you risk him GIDP. Just forget about using the 3-hole (and 3B for power) and use it for OBP. Let's say Espi/Lombo leads off.
I'd say, let the 1-2-3 get on base and expect Morse, ALR and Desi to drive them in. What you say is to the 1-2-3 guys, don't make outs!! Just, don't make outs. RZ needs to get a little faster to avoid so many GIDP, he's almost like ALR or a catcher out there. If he quit swinging for power he also might be able to place the ball into the gaps better.
Seriously, you have to quit saying this lineup spot (3) or this position (3B) is "reserved" for a power bat. You have to look at the players you have and their CURRENT strengths/weaknesses and work to them.
Also, lineup position matters less than 1% of the time, but lineup order can, it seems to me, matter. 1,2,3, have to put at least one on base, and at a minimum, 4,5,6,7 (even 8, because our pitchers can hit) have to go "station to station" until someone hits a double or a HR.
Granted, it would be better if he were hitting .810 in Potomac, but as you say, it's in Potomac, on a rehab, not here, and healthy. He's there because he was hurt, and is working back into shape. It don't count.
Why not simply move Lombo to 3rd and stick with it? Move Moore to Left and when Werth comes back, make a decision in the outfield. If Moore is the stud I think he is, then perhaps Werth replaces Morse if Michael has not solved his issues. Regardless, we would be set in the outfield and I know Lombo can hold the fort down until Zim is healthy. To me this is a no brainer. Forgt DeRosa, PLEASE, the manis 1 for 11 in the minors batting .094, are you all joiking?
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_sports/lee_gonzalez_would_add_considerable_LwyqaoAM3dei6JDLDavYXM/0
I think this speculation started all the rumors. I don't think it makes sense for either team to move Lee or CarGo. Maybe Lee if Phillies are getting desperate but don't see how Lee would appreciated trading twice from them.
As far as RZ is concerned, if he thinks he is better off taking shots than hitting DL and managers are supporting him, I will root for him too.
Apart from his physical limitations, Zimmerman also needs to start recognizing the first two called strikes.
NatsLady said...
No, I wouldn't move Bryce or Zim down. If you move Zim down you risk him GIDP. Just forget about using the 3-hole (and 3B for power) and use it for OBP. Let's say Espi/Lombo leads off.
I'd say, let the 1-2-3 get on base and expect Morse, ALR and Desi to drive them in. What you say is to the 1-2-3 guys, don't make outs!! Just, don't make outs. RZ needs to get a little faster to avoid so many GIDP, he's almost like ALR or a catcher out there. If he quit swinging for power he also might be able to place the ball into the gaps better.
June 25, 2012 12:41 PM
I don't get your logic. If you move Zim down to 6th or 7th, in theory he is hitting behind the lower OBP guys so if he grounds out there is nobody on base.
I hear what you are saying about his speed because others have said he looks tired and unmotivated.
Its a shame its come down to questioning the player who has been the Face Of The Franchise and in Boston they are mourning the Youk.
Something here has to change.
Also, Tracy can play third and if Zim never gets back to 100%, then Tracy and Lombo can play third and this would provide needed rest for Zim in the dog days of the season
Seriously, you have to quit saying this lineup spot (3) or this position (3B) is "reserved" for a power bat.
No I don't. Championship teams don't have singles hitters at those positions in the lineup or on the field.
And Zim getting faster is not going to happen overnight, nor will it prevent him from grounding into double plays. Only hitting line drives instead of grounders will do that.
Having said that, I'm willing to give Zim a little more time to see if the cortisone shot brings back his power. If not, then down in the batting order he should go. Harper, Morse, or Desmond would be better at this point.
Well, Ghost, 7 might work, I agree with you there. But the difference is not that much (as studies have shown). I value RZ and root for him, and hope that he and Davey and the team can work through this. I am absolutely not ready to say he is unmotivated, because I know what it is like to live with pain.
Why not simply move Lombo to 3rd and stick with it?
Lombo doesn't have the physical tools. No arm for starters. He is a good second baseman ... not sure about him in the outfield because of the arm.
Espinosa has it all and then some. AND he has proven he can move to other positions on the infield and not just thrive but excel. That's who I would put at third base before any other solution at this point.
Also, Tracy can play third and if Zim never gets back to 100%,
I'd rather try Matt Skole and see what he can do ... both field at about the same level.
No way Tracy is a major league starting third baseman.
Apart from his physical limitations, Zimmerman also needs to start recognizing the first two called strikes.
Outside corner fastballs. He can't reach them and ends up fouling them if he does. He may have given up trying.
I recently finished reading Willie Mays by James Hirsch and R A Dickey's autobiography. Both are worth reading. Dickey's book is a little sadder, considering how many struggles, personal and otherwise, he had to go through. But you feel that much more respect for what he has done this season after you finish that book. hats off to him. Will be rooting for him in any non-Nats game.
Mays had other kind of difficulties going through the minors and all, the color kind. but did he win over fans by his play? I think the way fans celebrated baseball players has changed dramatically since his times. I don't think we cheer for greats of our times (such as Ichiro, Pujols, etc) the same way, willie was rooted even in opposing parks. Anyways, this book is great too.
why i bring this up is because how fans treat their good players going through tough times now is very different from before I think. At least that's what my impression is from reading Mays' book.
I actually don't care if RZ makes a lot of outs in the three spot if they are productive. Say the first two guys get on -- can you bunt, sac fly, ground out ( no dp please!!!) to move them along? If you can't do anything else, then don't whiff and make what you can do serve a purpose. Then go play defense where you save runs. Anything but the weak grounder to short that collapses the inning. I also agree that he should take lots of pitches, foul them off and try to get creative with what you can do instead of hoping for the home run. We have way too many guys that do that all the time. We need smarter hitting.
i agree with peric about lombo. his arm is a limitation that gets exposed at 3B (and in the OF, where there have been a few runs scored because guys will challenge him).
i don't know if it's fair to move espinosa to 3b in the middle of the season, though. that's a much different position than 2B or SS. it's not common to do that in the middle of a season. he's got enough on his plate *at* the plate, i'd hate to derail any progress he's made by having him learn 3B on the fly in the majors.
peric said...
Espinosa has it all and then some. AND he has proven he can move to other positions on the infield and not just thrive but excel. That's who I would put at third base before any other solution at this point.
On that note, then move Espi to 3rd and Lombo to 2b
Mathew Skole?
For cripes sake; he's in Hagerstown; that's 4 levels away. Can we see if he can hit say AA pitching before we put him in the hall of fame?
Goodwin is doing OK but this is a level he must dominate if he's to be considered a real prospect. Let's move him on up and see how it goes; minimum 2 full years away. Ditto for Meyer who is actually not dominating at this level.
if Davey moves Espinosa to third base and adds another thing for him to think about I will eat my hat, your hat, the Mad Hatter and Manhattan
For 2012 this is our team and it doesn't matter how much we belly ache or complain.
RF Werth
CF Harper
LF Morse
1B LaRoche
2B Espinosa
SS Desmond
3B Zim
C Flores
With injuries and such Lombo and Tyler Moore have and will get opportunities to grow on the job such that we can see who is a fringe utility player and who can claim a regular spot.
With the long absence of Werth I would platoon Moore and Brown who have both graduated from AAA and would give us an opportunity to see if they should be in next year's plans or if we need to go get someone like Bourn.
Nady, Tracy, Ankiel and Bernie? We already know who they are. The 1st 3 cannot be regulars on a winning team. Bernie? better than Ankiel but it might be time to move him so he can get a fresh start somewhere else.
Mick,
The team needs Zim. He is ours for many more years. He may have to go on the DL once or twice more but he's not getting benched.
Not really trying to pump his tires, but Espinosa is a future gold-glover at 2nd base and playing like one already.
If we need to replace Zimmerman at 3rd while he's on the shelf, and neither Lombardozzi or Tracy is the answer, then the one who may be is Michael Morse. The Beast began his career as a shortstop and has had stints playing 3rd.
if Davey moves Espinosa to third base and adds another thing for him to think about I will eat my hat, your hat, the Mad Hatter and Manhattan
Or just maybe Espinosa starts hitting like he did last year when HE HAD TO THINK about learning a new position (2nd base) and didn't think as much when he was hitting!!! I think moving Espinosa to third to learn that position as well as short and second could end up being a brilliant move.
Lombardozzi's BEST position on the field is second base. There his arm isn't as much of a weakness.
And yes I'd rather see Skole and his 16 home runs brought up from A ball Hagerstown than Chad Tracy at third base.
rogieshan,
That's not happening either. Long term it may be Rendon at 3rd and Zim at 1st. For now if Zim has to sit we will have to mic and match with Lombo, DeRosa, Tracy etc. I don't buy Espi at 3rd either.
Peric,
If Skole was in the picture this year he would have been at least at Potomac by now.
Rizzo and company did not skip a level for Harper (except Potomac) last season, why would they skip levels for this Skole guy?
If Skole was in the picture this year he would have been at least at Potomac by now.
If Chad Tracy were that good he wouldn't be a bench guy.
All I'm saying is that I'd rather see Skole than Tracy. Both are about as accomplished fielding-wise at third base. I think Skole hits better.
Skole probably should be in Potomac ... he is an older prospect and he is hitting. But, he likely needs to work on his fielding some more.
peric said...
And yes I'd rather see Skole and his 16 home runs brought up from A ball Hagerstown than Chad Tracy at third base.
June 25, 2012 1:53 PM
How do you go from making sense to making no sense. This kid has to get to AA and dominate before any callup and if you haven't noticed, there is no openings any more on the 40 man and clearly you can see some DFA's/trades will probably occur when some of the 60 day DL guys get called up.
Moore needs to play left the next rhee nights. three lefties going.
As for RZim he needs to rest the shoulder, and won't until it is too late and he makes it much worse.
As for CarGo he is going nowhere, but if goes somewhere for some crazy reason, be in the hunt.
One thing though. Since CarGo is a Boras client you can never say never where the Nats are concerned I suppose.
I have a novel idea. I am going to count on Rizzo, Davey, all these coaches and, scouts who have us in first place, to figure out how to get us to the WS.
Bet they do it too.
Not only does Davey have the Zim issue, but now he is faced with the leadoff issue again as Lombo's numbers have gone on a freefall.
Wow, I go away for a few hours and we go from discussing CarGo and Zim to discussing Matt Skole. Seriously? The guy's not even in High A yet, right?
DeRosa and his pathetic bat join the Nats tonight. Davey will likely play the guy. The pitching must now throw shutouts every single night.
JD,
I know it's a stretch (about Morse), and I agree Rendon is the long-term answer. Mix and match is certainly the likeliest route.
Peric,
Yes, Skole is hitting but he has yet to see a breaking ball north of High-A. And, unless I'm getting foggy with age, his fielding is barely adequate and, perhaps, the single biggest reason why he is still where he is.
Seriously? The guy's not even in High A yet, right?
An older prospect. Its his fielding not his hitting that's holding him back. Chad Tracy is about at the same level at third base.
wow. so the solutions to zim's struggle at 3B.
a) move espinosa there (because since he didn't struggle as much when he was learning 2B, maybe that will help him hit while he learns 3B (ignoring the massive slump the second half last season))
b) call up a guy playing low-A ball
c) put a guy there who doesn't have the arm to play the corner
d) put one of two former quality major leaguers there who are obviously on the downsides of their career
e) move mike morse there
i can't believe that the powers that be don't come here for advice more often!
:)
I would rather see the Nats go after Michael Bourn to a point where they don't have to rush Werth back.
Bourn will be an upgrade in CF and be the LEGIT leadoff the team needs.
Get Zim on the DL and make it clear that he doesn't come back until he is 100% healthy.
When Werth comes back in mid-August the Nats will hopefully have 4 top outfielders and Tyler Moore and will be able to rest guys. Desi is tired and banged up, Espi is tired. Flores is tired. LaRoche is tired.
Speaking of High A, the Nats might just start a guy who was hitting .081 before going on the DL and .091 in Potomac. In the majors. At age 37 after a plethora of injuries the past 3 years that have mostly kept him off the field.
Again, I'd rather see older prospect Skole.
btw, even if we all accept that skole's defense is what's holding him back, the reality is that he still hasn't shown he can hit high A pitching, let alone AA, AAA, or major league pitching.
if his hitting was really that advanced, they'd have moved him up. it's not like learning to be a better 3B is so much easier at low A than high A or AA. and keeping his bat down there while he works on defense would be stunting his hitting development.
ghost of steve m, why would atlanta trade bourne? and if they did, why would they trade him to the team a few games ahead of them in the standings?
I would rather see the Nats go after Michael Bourn to a point where they don't have to rush Werth back.
Bourn will be an upgrade in CF and be the LEGIT leadoff the team needs.
The problem is still at the heart of the order. Not lead off. Adding Bourn wouldn't add much if anything. And the Nats have way too many possibilities in the minors for that spot.
The heart of the order is almost non-existent and unable to drive in runs? And you want to fix lead off?
I'd rather see Harper lead off than go out and spend prospects for Bourn.
peric, no need to go all BOLD and mighty on us.
it's not going to happen mid-season while he is struggling at the plate. if you think it should then so be it.
and last year Danny hit .236 albeit with 21 dingers. he need's to be better than last year.
if his hitting was really that advanced, they'd have moved him up. it's not like learning to be a better 3B is so much easier at low A than high A or AA. and keeping his bat down there while he works on defense would be stunting his hitting development.
Not taking into account that there might be prospects ahead of him right now? By all accounts Skole has a very advanced approach to the plate. As does 1st rounder Brian Goodwin (a far, far better future CF possibility than Bourn ... Bourn just say NO.). Its not as simple as you think. Skole was an All Star two years running now.
I don't see it as a statistical quirk just like I don't think that the fact he hits lefties better than RH is a quirk or hits better on the road than at home and that 7 of his 15 multi-hit games have been on Sundays.
All of those are statistical quirks due to small sample size. Given a large enough sample size a series of coin flips will converge on 50% heads 50% tails. But in a series of 50 coin flips it would not be at all unusual to see 5 to 10 flips more of one side than the other. You call all of your observations "interesting" and indeed some might find them interesting. But that doesn't make them meaningful or predictive.
and last year Danny hit .236 albeit with 21 dingers. he need's to be better than last year.
Just batting left-handed. Right handed he appears to be doing just fine.
How long has it been since we scored 4 runs in an inning. I would look it up, butI figure on of you have a secret way to look it up faster.
Alexva,
Amidst all this scintillating debate, I have to say, I'm a big fan of Grace Kelly. What's the history there?
11 minor league at bats determine whether a guy is washed up or not. C'mon guys, make reasonable arguments in here.
peric, when you find yourself in a hole the first thing you need to do is stop digging. with all due respect
Didn't I read here somewhere that Zim is trying to make it to off-season before having shoulder surgery to fix his problem? If this is the case, then fixing him now would cost him the rest of the season. So its worth trying to get him by with shots. I still think it would be better to drop him in the batting order unless the shots make him worthwhile in the 3 hole.
Manassas, as far as I can tell, last Sunday in May against Braves.
Sonny, I'm no doctor but I know that repeated cortisone shots are not good. Before some injury becomes a chronic problem (see Utley,Chase) I'd shut him down and fix it. He is signed for too long for too much to risk it.
Soul Possession, My Hitterish Sofa said...
DeRosa has been on the Disabled List since late April, IIRC, and was hurt before that (hence the DL). Not sure what "still hitting .083" [.081, actually] means.
Apparently he was 0 for 0 while on the DL. But we need to know if he took any walks so we can calculate his OBP.
Rog, nothing special, just the most beautiful woman in the history of women.
Peric,
Comparing Goodwin to Bourn is completely unreasonable. Bourn has been doing it in the big leagues for several years and Goodwin has less than half a year of low A ball under his belt; he may or may not grow to be a major league star, the jury is still out but to make that leap of faith based on such a short sample size is not serious.
Not saying we should try to get Bourn; Atlanta won't do it while they are still in the race and I wouldn't give up real prospects for a rental any way. I still think that Storen for Span makes some sense.
peric said...
Not sure what "still hitting .083" [.081, actually] means.
Either way DeRosa is waaaaaaaay sub Mendoza. And even worst in Potomac right now.
I love the way peric is so dismissive of the traditional stats, except for when he's using them to denigrate a player.
alexva, good point.
wow. so the solutions to zim's struggle at 3B.
a) move espinosa there (because since he didn't struggle as much when he was learning 2B, maybe that will help him hit while he learns 3B (ignoring the massive slump the second half last season))
b) call up a guy playing low-A ball
c) put a guy there who doesn't have the arm to play the corner
d) put one of two former quality major leaguers there who are obviously on the downsides of their career
e) move [michael] morse there
i can't believe that the powers that be don't come here for advice more often!
We missed one: Trade Lannen and HRod for Albert Pujols, and put him at third. But only if the Angels will pay his salary, of course.
'Sonny, I'm no doctor but I know that repeated cortisone shots are not good. Before some injury becomes a chronic problem (see Utley,Chase) I'd shut him down and fix it. He is signed for too long for too much to risk it'
I agree. If the shoulder requires surgery I'd do it now.
I like Pujols solution better. he can play CF once RZ is back to being RZ.
I really do think they need to bring up Corey Brown. He's only played (i'm guessing 3-4 games?) in the majors. But i think we can trade for someone, because i think Marrero can be trade bait. We have Moore at 1st in the future. Just my opinion!
Don't know about big (4-run innings). Here are a bunch of stats to amuse you all, it may be in here somewhere....
mlb team rankings
http://www.teamrankings.com/mlb/team-stats/
And while we're on the subject of the Z-man, it's nice to know somebody somewhere (else) both appreciates him, and has some priorities.
Washington Nationals' Ryan Zimmerman To Receive Lou Gehrig Memorial Award
In the immortal words of the poet Sylvester Stewart: "Just thought I'd mention that."
Yes, FS, it's probably the most versatile magical thinking we've done all day.
Peric,
I get the gist of your point.You prefer your own prospect to someone else's cast offs and in principal I agree with this position. It's just that your argument is somewhat out of proportion. You can't (IMO) compare players who are 4 levels away to major leaguers; when you tout Correy Brown I am with you; I think he deserves a real full shot but when you go Mathew Skole on us your argument loses credibility (IMO).
This is cool, too, if you want to compare team stats.
COL vs. WAS
http://www.teamrankings.com/mlb/matchup/nationals-rockies-2012-06-25
In the words of the late Rodney King... can't we all just get along, lol
and in the words of the infamous Willie James Huff: Raaaaackeeeeem! lol
too bad those teamranking sites are blocked at work.
Been off the computer for a few hours but I did notice that there are some posters that still think Jeremy Guthrie plays for the Orioles - he is a Rockie with over a 6 era. And again with the Lombo can't, Lombo will never, Lombo's arm. And we know that now? He might not ever have Ankiel's arm but at least he doesn't have his swing, either. My bet is on Bo Porter who has been training these converted outfielders. He might not ever have a cannon but you don't know squat about what kind of an outfielder he can be or if he will ever have enough of an arm to play there or at third. It's not a permanent condition - people can learn and improve. All too many players have been written off too early and then made themselves good players. Matt Kemp used to really suck. Remember the Ian Desmond is terrible campaign?
It took Adam LaRoche something like five years to play first base the way he does. Votto also transformed himself into a good fielder. It takes time but it can be done.
NYN is new york national league, Mets. CHA is Chicago American, white Sox.
actually, we *do* know about lombo's arm. it's been on display at both 3B and LF. and it's been a defensive liability in both positions. doesn't necessarily mean he can't play either position on a short-term basis, but he's really a slightly-out-of-position utility player at either 3B or LF. his defensive skills profile well at 2B, but there's really not much work for him there no this team right now.
what bo porter can do is help him with positioning and make some adjustments to his throwing motion in order to make his throws more accurate and using the appropriate style for an OF, which is different than an IF.
this is not unlike natslady's comments about laroche/votto (and even pujols, who wasn't great at 1B when he first switched). positioning, proper technique, better footwork, etc, can make you a better fielder.
but what a coach can't do is somehow make lombo throw harder, farther, or more on a rope. that part is a physical talent issue. he can mitigate the issue with some adjustments (and i'm sure they're working on them). but it's still a lot farther from 3B to 1B than it is from 2B to any other B. and it's farther from LF to home than any of those. and he just doesn't have the arm strength.
I think he deserves a real full shot but when you go Mathew Skole on us your argument loses credibility (IMO).
No, just shows how silly I think the idea of playing Chad Tracy at third while moving Zim to the DL or first is. Its that crazy ... and yes, once again, I would much prefer to see Matt Skole at third instead.
My preference would be to move Espinosa to third. Clearly he would be the best at the superUTIL position as the best athlete on the roster. Lombo is no slouch at 2nd base having won a minor league gold glove last year. That would give the infield a lot of athleticism and its share of hitting if a HEALTHY Zim were to move to first base.
Corey Brown should be the lead off hitter. He's done everything Davey asked of him out of ST. Right Davey? What you want to bring back DeRosa instead? What's wrong with this picture Davey?
If they're starting three left-handers against us in Coors Fld, Danny may get his 25 homers this year after all.
yowza! that teamranking site says:
Nats run differential: +35
Rox run differential: -48
=============
my iphone ESPN app says Nats line is -170
No, just shows how silly I think the idea of playing Chad Tracy at third while moving Zim to the DL or first is. Its that crazy ... and yes, once again, I would much prefer to see Matt Skole at third instead.
If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?
11 minor league at bats determine whether a guy is washed up or not. C'mon guys, make reasonable arguments in here.
PLUS 37 major league at bats with a .081 average?
PLUS the guy can barely move when he plays the outfield?
PLUS four injury filled years and age 37 going on 38?
He's done. You can take him out off the fire now.
If they're starting three left-handers against us in Coors Fld, Danny may get his 25 homers this year after all.
But instead of Tyler Moore we're going to see DeRosa and Nady.
Three potential losses in a row.
If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?
Hey now! But I thought this was a family blog...
After reading a few comments, I am sooo glad I was really busy at work today...
Sigh.. When does the game start??
It's true, he might be done. That could happen, too. One thing that is absolutely certain is, if he comes back and hits .400, we'll never hear a peep out of you.
Completely disagree about the throwing - you are talking about now, not the future. I think any young major league player can develop a stronger and more accurate throwing arm. Plus , their bodies are still developing and filling out well into their mid to late twenties. Again - maybe not a cannon, but more than serviceable. Sometimes these young players like it when you write them off or say that they can't do something. It motivates them. Especially the kind of rookies that we seem to have. There is no quit in them at all. We also thought soft-tossing Tommy Milone couldn't win very many games in the majors.
I know it's a stretch (about Morse), and I agree Rendon is the long-term answer. Mix and match is certainly the likeliest route.
Anthony Rendon: two surgically repaired broken ankles. And you think he can play third in the majors without Nick theStick DL action? I suspect his best position is going to be 2nd base, first base or DL.
Morse can play third but at this point he's an outfielder. He needs to get not he stick.
Matt Skole **IS** the top prospect third baseman if Rendon is out. After that its Carlos Rivero, and possibly Zach Walters.
This is actually where I believe a trade or FA signing might make sense if the decision is made to move Zim to first. Zim could easily back up the new third bagger when needed. Be nice to find a left-handed swinging third bagger.
My understading of RZ and surgery is that he doesn't need surgery now. The shots are to help him play on the sore shoulder and the damage that MAY happen if he plays with the sore shoulder is bone chips. IF he gets bone chips, he can live with that and fix it in the off season.
And putting a barely serviceable singles hitter in the #3 spot makes sense because? See LaRoche, Adam first baseman 2011.
It's true, he might be done. That could happen, too. One thing that is absolutely certain is, if he comes back and hits .400, we'll never hear a peep out of you.
And hopefully if the reverse happens then we can throw that old sofa out to the curb and not have to see or hear from it again.
Rendon--no 2B.
1) you don't want him twisting on those ankles to make double-plays.
2) you don't want oppenents crashing into those ankles to avoid double-plays.
If he's got the arm, 3B.
If he's got the arm, 3B.
BUT NO wheels?
i SEE that LaRoche had a torn labrum and a partially torn rotator cuff, which is a substantially different and more serious injury than Zimm. Not saying that the latter has been effective. Also, LaRoche couldn't even throw from first to second without a sharp pain, whereas Zimm has no problem defensively (as evidenced by his defensive play)
JD can we stop mentioning Rendon until he can play a full month ANYWHERE? I head Phil Wood say last week that his season is over and won't be coming back this year, unless it's in the AZ Fall League. This guy needs to play before his name keeps coming up here...
NatsNut, I read the following and see where your understanding comes from
http://tinyurl.com/7euwrgw
but as I read the entire article it sounds to me like a bunch of double talk. I'm tired of players playing through injury (and it is described as an injury not just pain) and reducing their effectiveness for short term gains.
Tcostant,
I said long term.
Per ESPN: X Nady to DL with Wrist Tendinitis, De Rosa has been activated
Snicker..
Jon Heyman@JonHeymanCBS
marlon byrd suspended 50 games for PED, MLB announces. had 3 extra-base hits. wasnt helping him
Ditto on the thread and work obligations, Michele.
On topic, thanks for the post-dreaded-stretch summary, Mark. I chose to be encouraged.
Also, thanks to Faraz for the book mentions and thoughts on changes in how fans treat their players. My random thoughts on why it might be different in this day and age: the interwebz, fantasy baseball, sports talk radio, lower standards for civility in general.
awww, I always liked Marlon. Dang.
Jon Heyman@JonHeymanCBS
marlon byrd suspended 50 games for PED, MLB announces. had 3 extra-base hits. wasnt helping him
Can we stop mentioning Rendon, even long term, until he can play a full month of baseball ANYWHERE?
Who don't know if this guy will ever be the guy he was his second year at Rice. That was 2010.
btw, on the fan/player relationship note, we were lucky enough to have an obnoxious, loud, braying fan behind us at the Saturday P-Nats game. He spent the entire game ragging on DeRosa and Maldonado (Him: "You can't hit the curve ball! You're a disgrace!" Me (under my breath) "Yeah, like *you* could hit it.") After the game and fireworks ended, he ragged on the staffers for taking too long to get the field ready for kids to run the bases. Not sure who he ragged on after that, as we were headed home. :-)
we can agree to disagree on that, swami. i don't think you can teach lombo to throw harder any more than you could teach john lannan to throw 98.
STATS LLC @STATS_MLB
#Nationals' Strasburg has won each of his last 6 starts. The #Rockies haven't had a starter win in their last 17 games.
Swami (and Greg),
When Morse was rehabbing he stated he was on a special throwing program to help build his arm strength. He mentioned that it was totally different than throwing the ball around the infield. Morse felt that it really helped with his accuracy and range from the OF. MAYBE Lombo can do that same program. After all,he played 2b most of his life and throwing from that position has to be different than from LF.
OK, I am baffled. Novocain and cortisone are "legal" but tamoxifen, which is a legal prescription drug is a PED? Blood infusions, like Mike Morse had, are legal? Did you hear Davey say that in his day the "lived" on injections?
I'm not saying Marlon Byrd shouldn't have known better (or picked a more ethical trainer), I am just mystified by the logic of MLB's choices as to what is allowed and what is not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamoxifen
anything's possible. but it's hard to believe it would be anything more than incremental, since you're always just building of the base of who you are to begin with physically. not saying he couldn't become a better thrower from the OF (or 3B), but there's a limit to how much you could just do with hard work and technique (or else everyone would be doing it).
You know Desi is playing injured and I suspect Ankiel was (and may still be). LaRoche played injured. And Nady, conveniently and coincidentally, has "wrist tendonitis," a condition that does not respond to cortisone? Is this a farce or what?
Y'all will be happy to know Moore is playing tonight and DeRosa is not. OK?
Dan Kolko @masnKolko
#Nats lineup: Espinosa 2B, Harper CF, Zimmerman 3B, Morse RF, LaRoche 1B, Desmond SS, Moore LF, Flores C, Strasburg P
LOL the Donkey:
Ben Goessling @BenGoesslingPP
Adam Dunn just strolled into the #WhiteSox's clubhouse in a #RedSox No. 20 jersey, took it off, and draped it over Youkilis' chair.
I love how the Nats come up with "creative" injuries and DL stints just when they have to make room for someone else. I think Davey or McCatty actually slammed HRod's finger in the door themselves. Hey, guys - you are probably going to get DFA'd tomorrow --- OUCH! my wrist hurts! DL is better than DFA any day of the week. But once again I think the player on rehab is coming back too soon - don't even think DeRosa made any contact whatsoever with a ball in High A. Well, I guess he'll fit right in then with everyone else who isn't hitting. We won't even notice when he whiffs. ( and yes, I hope I am putting the reverse lock on him)
Also, thanks to Faraz for the book mentions and thoughts on changes in how fans treat their players.
Not that there haven't been changes, but when someone posits that fans are ruder now, I think of this, among other things.
Casey at the Bat--Road Game
DeRosa, last add: I don't know what he'll do up here (no one does), but do recall that Bryce Harper wasn't tearing it up in AAA before his callup. He's done OK. But then, he's the Harper.
It's like you read my mind, sec3, as I thought about posting the same, but decided not to. :-)
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