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US Presswire photo Ryan Zimmerman, to no one's surprise, leads several statistical categories. |
And one of the benefits of that longevity is the ability to compile statistical leaderboards in an array of categories. I first compiled such lists during the final month of the 2010 season, and I've been meaning to update those lists this winter but had yet to get around to it.
So with some help from the fabulous Play Index on baseball-reference.com, I present the new and updated all-time Nationals stat leaders. WARNING: Reading these lists will elicit a wide range of emotions, from smiles to frowns to laughter to tears to sheer dumbfoundedness (and yes, I know that's not a real word, but trust me, it will apply to a few of these names)...
BATTING
GAMES PLAYED
1. Ryan Zimmerman 2005-11 845
2. Cristian Guzman 2005-10 550
4. Willie Harris 2008-10 409
5. Austin Kearns 2006-09 390
6. Brian Schneider 2005-07 369
7. Ian Desmond 2009-11 329
Ronnie Belliard 2007-09 329
9. Felipe Lopez 2006-08 325
10. Adam Dunn 2009-10 317
Ryan Church 2005-07 317
HOME RUNS
1. Ryan Zimmerman 2005-11 128
2. Adam Dunn 2009-10 76
3. Michael Morse 2009-11 49
Nick Johnson 2005-09 49
5. Alfonso Soriano 2006 46
6. Josh Willingham 2009-10 40
7. Austin Kearns 2006-09 34
Ryan Church 2005-07 34
9. Jose Guillen 2005-06 33
10. Willie Harris 2008-10 30
RBI
1. Ryan Zimmerman 2005-11 498
2. Nick Johnson 2005-09 215
3. Adam Dunn 2009-10 208
4. Cristian Guzman 2005-10 177
5. Austin Kearns 2006-09 159
6. Brian Schneider 2005-07 153
7. Ryan Church 2005-07 147
8. Michael Morse 2009-11 146
9. Ian Desmond 2009-11 126
Ronnie Belliard 2007-09 126
HITS
1. Ryan Zimmerman 2005-11 947
2. Cristian Guzman 2005-09 581
3. Nick Johnson 2005-09 404
4. Ian Desmond 2009-11 312
5. Austin Kearns 2006-09 311
6. Felipe Lopez 2006-08 301
7. Brian Schneider 2005-07 300
8. Adam Dunn 2009-10 291
9. Ronnie Belliard 2007-09 271
10. Ryan Church 2005-07 259
STOLEN BASES
1. Nyjer Morgan 2009-10 58
2. Felipe Lopez 2006-08 49
3. Ian Desmond 2009-11 43
4. Alfonso Soriano 2006 41
5. Roger Bernadina 2008-11 38
6. Willie Harris 2008-10 29
7. Ryan Zimmerman 2005-11 25
Lastings Milledge 2008-09 25
Nook Logan 2006-07 25
10. Cristian Guzman 2005-10 23
BATTING AVERAGE (min. 500 PA)
1. Dmitri Young 2007-08 .310
2. Michael Morse 2009-11 .295
3. Ryan Zimmerman 2005-11 .288
4. Nick Johnson 2005-09 .286
5. Jose Vidro 2005-06 .284
6. Cristian Guzman 2005-10 .282
7. Ronnie Belliard 2007-09 .281
8. Nyjer Morgan 2009-10 .280
9. Ryan Church 2005-07 .277
Alfonso Soriano 2006 .277
------------------------------------
29. Willie Harris 2008-10 .229
ON-BASE PERCENTAGE (min. 500 PA)
1. Nick Johnson 2005-09 .416
2. Dmitri Young 2007-08 .382
3. Adam Dunn 2009-10 .378
4. Josh Willingham 2009-10 .377
5. Elijah Dukes 2008-09 .359
6. Ryan Zimmerman 2005-11 .355
7. Ryan Church 2005-07 .354
8. Michael Morse 2009-11 .353
9. Alfonso Soriano 2006 .351
Brad Wilkerson 2005 .351
------------------------------------
29. Ivan Rodriguez 2010-11 .291
SLUGGING PERCENTAGE (min. 500 PA)
1. Alfonso Soriano 2006 .560
2. Michael Morse 2009-11 .536
3. Adam Dunn 2009-10 .533
4. Ryan Zimmerman 2005-11 .479
Josh Willingham 2009-10 .479
6. Ryan Church 2005-07 .478
7. Nick Johnson 2005-09 .471
8. Dmitri Young 2007-08 .469
9. Jose Guillen 2005-06 .455
10. Ronnie Belliard 2007-09 .431
------------------------------------
29. Wil Nieves 2008-10 .315
OPS (min. 500 PA)
1. Alfonso Soriano 2006 .911
2. Adam Dunn 2009-10 .910
3. Michael Morse 2009-11 .889
4. Nick Johnson 2005-09 .886
5. Josh Willingham 2009-10 .856
6. Dmitri Young 2007-08 .851
7. Ryan Zimmerman 2005-11 .834
8. Ryan Church 2005-07 .831
9. Elijah Dukes 2008-09 .788
10. Jose Guillen 2005-06 .773
------------------------------------
29. Wil Nieves 2008-10 .608
PITCHING
WINS
1. Livan Hernandez 05-06,09-11 44
2. John Lannan 2007-11 38
3. Tyler Clippard 2008-11 19
4. Jon Rauch 2005-08 18
5. Tony Armas 2005-06 16
6. Saul Rivera 2006-09 13
Tim Redding 2007-08 13
8. Jordan Zimmermann 2009-11 12
Jason Bergmann 2005-10 12
Joel Hanrahan 2007-09 12
Chad Cordero 2005-08 12
Esteban Loaiza 2005 12
LOSSES
1. John Lannan 2007-11 51
2. Livan Hernandez 05-06,09-11 47
3. Jason Bergmann 2005-10 24
4. Tony Armas 2005-06 19
5. Jordan Zimmermann 2009-11 18
6. Luis Ayala 2005-08 17
Tim Redding 2007-08 17
8. Collin Balester 2008-11 16
Ramon Ortiz 2006 16
10. Matt Chico 2007-10 15
Saul Rivera 2006-09 15
Jon Rauch 2005-08 15
APPEARANCES
1. Saul Rivera 2006-09 245
2. Jon Rauch 2005-08 236
3. Chad Cordero 2005-08 224
4. Tyler Clippard 2008-11 193
5. Sean Burnett 2009-11 175
6. Luis Ayala 2005-08 174
7. Jason Bergmann 2005-10 155
8. Jesus Colome 2007-09 138
9. Livan Hernandez 05-06,09-11 129
10. John Lannan 2007-11 128
GAMES STARTED
1. Livan Hernandez 05-06,09-11 129
2. John Lannan 2007-11 128
3. Jason Bergmann 2005-10 50
4. Jordan Zimmermann 2009-11 49
Tony Armas 2005-06 49
6. Tim Redding 2007-08 48
7. John Patterson 2005-07 46
8. Matt Chico 2007-10 40
9. Craig Stammen 2009-11 38
10. Shawn Hill 2006-08 34
Esteban Loaiza 2005 34
STRIKEOUTS
1. Livan Hernandez 05-06,09-11 476
2. John Lannan 2007-11 393
3. Jason Bergmann 2005-10 299
4. Tyler Clippard 2008-11 291
5. Jordan Zimmermann 2009-11 243
6. John Patterson 2005-07 242
7. Jon Rauch 2005-08 224
8. Chad Cordero 2005-08 197
9. Saul Rivera 2006-09 191
10. Esteban Loaiza 2005 173
WALKS
1. John Lannan 2007-11 282
2. Livan Hernandez 05-06,09-11 262
3. Jason Bergmann 2005-10 153
4. Saul Rivera 2006-09 123
5. Tony Armas 2005-06 118
6. Tyler Clippard 2008-11 106
7. Tim Redding 2007-08 103
8. John Patterson 2005-07 96
9. Joel Hanrahan 2007-09 94
10. Matt Chico 2007-10 91
SAVES
1. Chad Cordero 2005-08 113
2. Drew Storen 2010-11 48
3. Matt Capps 2010 26
4. Jon Rauch 2005-08 23
5. Mike MacDougal 2009 20
6. Joel Hanrahan 2007-09 14
7. Sean Burnett 2009-11 7
8. Saul Rivera 2006-09 4
9. Henry Rodriguez 2011 2
Miguel Batista 2010 2
Jorge Sosa 2009 2
Kip Wells 2009 2
Steven Shell 2008-09 2
Luis Ayala 2005-08 2
Hector Carrasco 2005 2
ERA (min. 75 IP)
1. Hector Carrasco 2005 2.04
2. Stephen Strasburg 2010-11 2.54
3. Tyler Clippard 2008-11 2.59
4. Chad Cordero 2005-08 2.78
5. Sean Burnett 2009-11 2.98
6. Drew Storen 2010-11 3.10
7. Gary Majewski 2005-06 3.18
8. Jon Rauch 2005-08 3.40
9. Miguel Batista 2010 3.70
10. Micah Bowie 2006-07 3.74
------------------------------------
41. Pedro Astacio 2006 5.98
WHIP (min. 75 IP)
1. Stephen Strasburg 2010-11 0.978
2. Tyler Clippard 2008-11 1.084
3. Hector Carrasco 2005 1.098
4. Drew Storen 2010-11 1.125
5. Jon Rauch 2005-08 1.144
6. Chad Cordero 2005-08 1.172
7. Sean Burnett 2009-11 1.200
8. Jordan Zimmermann 2009-11 1.234
9. John Patterson 2005-07 1.269
10. Chris Schroder 2006-08 1.284
------------------------------------
41. Garrett Mock 2008-10 1.673
85 comments:
Good Morning Mark!
Your right.. some made me laugh and some made me cringe. No Offense to Clipp, but I want him to move to down the wins list. Stop Vulturing the Wins!!!!
How did Clipp get to #3 in wins?!
http://redsminorleagues.com/2012/01/20/2012-john-sickels-farm-system-rankings/
Nats 14th best farm system and A's jump up to #12
Actually some fond memories of our lovable losers. But those times are over!
Offensive surprises: only that Nook Logan is on the leaderboard for stolen bases.
Pitching: John Patterson didn't make the leaderboard for Wins. I had to look it up... he only had 11 wins.
Oh yeah... and I loved Gary Majewski's warm-up music. Thanks for the memories, Mark.
Those OBP #'s need to increase
You want some humor?
Prince Fielder lost 180 pounds this week. He told Boras to "Get lost".
Boras wanted Prince Fielder to do a Yoenis Cespedes style video. Prince ran a 4.2 in the 40. Don't get too excited, that was for 40 feet.
Where does Boras turn today? I'm thinking he's calling Nippon Ham Fighters. They have $51.7 million to spend on a 1 year deal!
Gonat-
If it isn't the Ham Fighters, I'm not sure it is other than the Nats. Of course, it would be appropriate for a vegetarian to play for the Ham Fighters.
Looking at the lists, I was surprised when reminded that Brad Wilkerson only played for us one year. I also was impressed again by how good a season Soriano had in 2006. I am glad it was his only one as a Nat.
A full year of Strasburg could put him in the top 5 of strikeouts. I hope that Desmond can get enough stolen bases this year, because I hate to see Nyjer Morgan at the top of any of our lists. How about showing stolen base leaders as "Net Stolen Bases (stolen bases - times caught stealing)? Nyjer might fall out of the top 10!
+1/2St.
I used to joke with my son when we went to Nats' games from 06-08 that a win for the Nats certainly wasn't guaranteed, but an appearance by Saul Rivera was. Turns out my joke wasn't too far from the truth. Looking at the numers also reminded me how much fun it was to watch Soriano play in 2006. Thanks for the trip down memory lane.
You know.... if he actually has lost weight and adopted a healthy lifestyle (sans the "glaucoma" medication that he got caught with) Dimitri Young might be worth an invite to ST on a minor league contract. A sitch hitter with his OBP might be worth something off the bench.
Just a thought.
Man, those are some depressing stats. How many of the tope 10 gusy in Wins are releivers? Ouch. 7 years of mostly lousy baseball. I want that stretch in the rearview mirror in such a big way. 2012 is our year to break out.
dfh21
I'm heading over to Viera this morning to see if anything's gong on. I'll report back later if I see activity.
Thanks Mark!
I had not thought about some of those guys for a long time. Do you guys remember how really good Vidro was when he played with the Expos? He was totally done when he got here and it was almost hurtful to watch.
I would not gamble on it but Dimitri really could swing the bat couldn't he.
This really does confirm how much Ryan is the FOF and needs to be extended.
Another day of waiting for the Prince but at least I will have a Viera report to look forward to. Thanks Natsjack
Some first impressions -- Ryan Zimmerman really is our go-to guy. Ian Desmond shows up in a lot of categories and has been with the organization a long time. John Lannan also features prominently in wins, losses, games, walks - almost everything pitching-related ; but Storen and Clippard have worked their way into the stats quickly. Michael Morse has also featured prominently even though he has not been with the team very long. This was a fun post, mark - I will go back and give it some more thought this weekend!
Dude,
You're right about Young. The fans love him, and he might still be the big hairy-chested guy that Johnson craves. He never had a problem hitting the ball.
Not trying to steal anything from the blogs Mark lists on the left side of NI but today is Camilo Pascual's b'day. While Eddie Yost was my favorite player, Camilo was probably our best pitcher and player by far. In 1969 he won 17 games had 17 complete games and an era around 2.7. I think he struck out about 3 times as many as he walked as well. Just a great pitcher on a rotten team. (still have the image of Carlos Paula getting hit on the head with an easy fly ball to right field).
Looking for those kinds of results from our big 3 except managers don't let pitchers stay in the game that long any more. I will take 17 wins from JZ, Gio and SS any day.
One very interesting thing in these lists is the way two pairs of players seem to be moving in lockstep through them. I'm speaking of the Ian Desmond/Ronnie Belliard and John Lannan/Livan Hernandez pairings in the lists that are cumulative, i.e. games played, games started, wins, losses, strikeouts, walks, hits, RBI, etc. From this you could come to the conclusion that in terms of career impact on the franchise Ian Desmond is interchangeable with Ronnie Belliard and John Lannan is interchangeable with Livan Hernandez. Yet in each of these pairings one player is almost universally loved by fans while the other is almost universally hated by fans. Food for thought for both the lovers and the haters.
Another conclusion: If John Lannan and Livan Hernandez are indeed clones of each other, you can put together a pretty good rotation with one of them in it. But if you have both of them in the rotation at the sme time, that ain't good.
Mark,
what a list! love to see "what are they doing now" for some of them. A fella could make this a poll question (hint hint).
Stuart
Depressing. Harris, Logan, Dukes, etc., shouldn't be considered "all-time" anything except bad memories. Suggest, Mark, that you not repeat these in future years until there are some real ballplayers and real numbers to put up.
If you would like to see if any of these players rank in the Washington Senators / Nationals All Time Stat Leaders visit this link.
http://dcbaseballhistory.com/d-c-baseball-records/
Great info, Mark - thanks.
I don't have the time to compile it myself, but I'd love to see a list of players ranked by WAR.
Zimm, due to his ability and longevity as a Nat, is head and shoulders the leader - at over 30 wins above replacement (fangraphs). I'm not sure there's another player who's even in double digits.
This is a really great compilation, Mark. Would be interesting to see a permanent link to something like this on the site.
Two things leap out:
Nick Johnson is No. 3 in games played! In spite of himself!
Clippard's name is all over the pitching boards, and it shows you just how important a shut-down reliever can be to a team, no matter what inning he pitches.
It amazes me how high Tony Armas is on so many lists. Sad sad sad! The list surely shows better times are ahead... how could they not be be default???
Morse and Soriano both being in the Top 5 in home runs, just shows you that we haven't had much to cheer for considering eachs service time...
DC Tom said...
Clippard's name is all over the pitching boards, and it shows you just how important a shut-down reliever can be to a team, no matter what inning he pitches.
January 20, 2012 9:11 AM
___________________________________
So true which is why I was all for getting Ryan Madson on a 1 year $8.5 million deal.
When you consider bullpens are pitching just about an average of 3 innings per game, a shut down bullpen like Atlanta's makes your starting rotation look better than it is.
Just sayin'
On Dmitri Young -- there are still so many hitters in the market this offseason that it will be hard for him to find a spot. Damon, Vlad Guerrero, Derrek Lee, Ibanez, Hideki Matsui, Carlos Guillen. Even Manny Ramirez.
I think the key to any Dmitri Young comeback is whether he can get a minor league invite to camp and then show that the now-svelte, athletic Dmitri can play at least a little defense. He was about an average fielding 1B before he came to DC, so the potential is there. But he was absolutely atrocious here.
I do hope the guy does well.
I guess it only seemed like Colome pitched longer. One thing I'll say for him though, you could go the bathroom and not miss an atbat with him on the mound.
The fact that Austin Kearns is 5th in RBI and 6th in hits shows just how awful the first five years of this franchise were. I very much look forward to him dropping off the leaderboard.
Oh, and Gonat -- it wasn't funny the first time. I bet Prince can run faster than you can.
Thanks for the stats, Mark. Didn't really elicit any emotions for me, though. I guess maybe I'm saving up my emoting for current/future events. :-)
I also hope Dmitri does well but his winter league stats weren't encouraging imo. I'm just glad that he seems to be healthy and happy.
Oh, and count me as another who enjoys the "where are they now" posts (fwiw).
Re. Colome, I seem to recall a game where they took a commercial break between his pitches, but I could be misremembering. :-) I did enjoy his near no-no.
Oh, wait. That was Ramon Ortiz. Unbelievable. :-)
IPs
1. Livo 828.2
2. Lannan 751.0
3. Bergmann 389.2
4. JZimm 283.2
5. Rivera 275.2
6. Patterson 270.1
7. Redding 266.0
8. Rauch 257.0
9. Armas 255.1
10. Clippard 250.0
I know innings pitched is not an advanced metric, but when you consider that list, it goes a long way towards explaining years of losses exceeding wins. Seven years. Three full time relievers. Only two starters who produced consecutive qualifying years.
Teams that will play baseball in October will produce at least three or more qualifying starters (StL had four, Texas five in '11). In our two best seasons ('05 and '11), we had three. Strasburg, JZimm, Gio, CMW, Lannan. That's a group -- if everyone is healthy -- that can stay out on the mound. Finally!
are the Yankees and Texira still happy with each other? any possibility Boras works out a deal to send Texira away to make room for the Yankees to sign PF? he represents both i believe.
If the team stands pat and everyone stays relatively healthy, Desmond should end up near the top in the counting stats like GP's, RBI, Hits and SB's. Morse should jump up to 3rd with a chance at 2nd in RBI. Lannan will get to 1st in Wins (and stay at 1st in Losses). Zimmerman will get jump to at least 4th in Wins.
That will look a lot better, to me anyways.
Couple of impressions:
- Mark, store this one away and compare it five years from now - it'll be great to see where almost no one from this list will be in the next one.
- It's not even worth looking at the pitchers except maybe Livo and the Chief. Everyone else was a short term rental.
- The scary things about the batting stats are... just about everything if you think about being a winning franchise.
Now that I think about it... Mark, if you have a few minutes to spare, do the same thing for the Phils over the same time period - that'll give us a bar to shoot for.
I had two meetings cancel on me so I obviously have nothing better to do.
Natslifer, I did a quick compare with the Phils on my white whale (IPs). The Phils top 10 produced 2000 more innings than the Nats over the same period. That's more 12 qualifying starters worth of innings.
It will be great to see this list in 3 years when it is dominated by Strasburg, Ryan, Jordan, Gio, Harper, Storen, and Morse.
I hadn't remembered Elijah Dukes being quite that good. Certainly, he wasn't good enough to compensate for the rest of his baggage (baggage being the understatement of the day). But he was actually pretty decent at getting on base and smacking (sorry) the ball.
(Also, I really don't want this to devolve into a debate about how terrible of a person Elijah was. I think we can all agree that we're glad the team no longer takes those chances.)
some defensive metrics would be nice too.
like top 10 players who have logged most innings as a CF.
By this list, Morse should certainly get all he asks for and MORE! Holy crap, he's only been on the team since 2009 and he's already above several of the well-thought-of offensive players on the team, that despite not playing regularly until 2011.
Nook Logan sighting!
Realize that its just one stat, but a little disturbing that the player with a virtually identical Nats career OPS to Ryan Zimmerman is Ryan Church. How much do you want to an invest in a player with offensive numbers over six years that track with Ryan Church?
Sad that Matt Chico is 8th all-time in starts for the Nats. Matt Chico? That alone explains the Nats troubles over their 7 year tenure in DC.
Finally, love the gratuitous inclusion of Garret Mock's career 1.673 WHIP. Ugly.
Pilchard
Speaking of stats, the great Bill James has a fun read on Grantland about the 100 best pitching duels of 2011.
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7480753/bill-james-100-best-pitchers-duels-2011
JZ is on it 5 times (too bad mostly losses), and one other DC pitcher, enjoy finding it, and oddly no Stras.
-Chris
Realize that its just one stat, but a little disturbing that the player with a virtually identical Nats career OPS to Ryan Zimmerman is Ryan Church. How much do you want to an invest in a player with offensive numbers over six years that track with Ryan Church?
That says a lot more about how good Church was when he was here than it says about Zimmerman. Even after he was traded to the Mets, Church was good until he hit the concussion issues.
Chris/Anon 11:12..
Yes but that Det Win vs Lee at #75 is sweet!!!!
NatsJack in Florida said...
I'm heading over to Viera this morning to see if anything's gong on. I'll report back later if I see activity.
January 20, 2012 7:59 AM
Music to my ears! I will be down to see you in Viera the last week of February and the 1st couple of Grapefruit games. Looks like the opener is against Houston on the road on March 2.
Church was not that strong a player in DC.
An .834 OPS for a corner infielder does not merit elite treatment. FWIW, I am big RZ fan, but his numbers do raise eyebrows.
Pilchard
WARNING: Reading these lists will elicit a wide range of emotions, from smiles to frowns to laughter to tears to sheer dumbfoundedness (and yes, I know that's not a real word, but trust me, it will apply to a few of these names)...
Ok, Mark did warn us....
The Nats have had so many nomads on their rosters over the years that it clouds the picture and not sure what to make of some of these cumulative charts except to drop my jaw per Mark's warning.
The cumulative numbers are mostly distorted for comparative purposes due to sample sizes and the fact the Nats have only a 7 year history.
Still fun to see and ponder. If Ryan Zimmerman aspires for career greatness, he needs to get back to healthy ways and consistent numbers.
Re Bill James story from Chris at 11:12 --
Note that Gio Gonzalez is on it at #22 and 28, both wins.
re the interminable Fielderocity, what's the over/under (date-wise)on his signing somewhere? End of Jan?
Stuart
I can't believe the Rangers got Darvish to sign for $5.5 million for his 1st year of compensation which is less than he was making in Japan.
Carlos Pena (Boras client) is talking to the Rays and if they sign him that would end any of my speculation that Adam LaRoche traded to the Rays has any possibility.
Another Boras client, Ryan Spilborghs, was signed by the Indians to a minor league deal with an invitation to Spring Training.
As things go for Boras, his clients are not doing well. Madson 1 year deal after 3 year deal with Philly fell through. Spillborghs got a Minor League deal. Pena is looking at below market 1 year deals. Edwin Jackson is looking at 1 to 3 year deals. Ankiel is unsigned. Pudge Rodriguez is unsigned. Prince Fielder I hear is not getting the 10 year Pujols type of deal.
Pena to the Rays for 1 year at 7.25 million
Here's my crazy thought for the day. Don't wait for Prince Fielder. Trade LaRoche + cash to Tampa straight up for Upton.
Worse case you move Morse to 1st and your Opening Day outfield is set with Bryce Harper in LF, Upton CF, and Werth in RF.
If Tampa requires another player the most I would give them is Bernadina but then I would want Brandon Guyer thrown in.
Upton won't be the leadoff but his 2 hole numbers are very good. It takes the pressure off of Werth who can move back in the lineup. Bryce Harper has an open lane to Opening Day if he has a good Spring. If Harper doesn't then Rizzo puts a platoon in LF of Rick Ankiel and DeRosa.
As I just wrote that my text just went off that the Rays don't need a 1st baseman any more. I guess my post at 12:11 has happened.
Tampa just raised their payroll to $63 million projected for Opening Day. Did they just fall into a boatload of money or are they working on a blockbuster trade now?
Mark thanks for this lists. This reminds me that we have come a long way but at the same time we have so far to go in some categories. I cannot wait until John Lannan's totals are eclipsed by real pitchers!
SteveM, you weren't quick enough. I don't think Rizzo trades LaRoche until Prince is in hand.
I definitely think Tampa is trading a package.
Mark'd, I said it was a crazy thought about trading LaRoche now. The Rays are case and point that teams don't want to wait much longer to have their team put together.
To all those who have insisted for months now upon trading Mr. LaRoche: would YOU trade for a player (w/ an $8-m salary) who is coming off a serious injury and have no real idea if he can still perform at his previous level? Enough already!!
To all those who have insisted for months now upon trading Mr. LaRoche: would YOU trade for a player (w/ an $8-m salary) who is coming off a serious injury and have no real idea if he can still perform at his previous level?
It would depend how much you had to supply in return for him, i.e. in players, prospects and/or amount of his salary you have to pick up. And until LaRoche proves on the field that his injury issue is no longer an issue, the answer to that is that no GM in his right mind would offer much, if anything in return for him. So all of these "trade LaRoche for Upton" kind of scenarios are nothing more than pipe dreams - and that's true whether Fielder is signed or not.
Happy Birthday Camilio Pascual! We of certain years remember your hey days. But sjm308...his big year was 1959. Not 1969. With the ORIGINAL Senators (that went to Minnesota to become the Twins), not with the expansion Senators (that went to Texas to become the Rangers).
Players are signed often coming off of injuries. Chien Ming Wang and Mark DeRosa are 2 examples.
You pay less than market when you have a concern about a players health which is why I have always suggested LaRoche + cash and possibly a PTBNL.
I will say for those who are worried about LaRoche's health that Mike Rizzo says he is the starting 1st baseman. What does that say about the Nats. They have Morse as the backup 1st baseman but then you have a hole in LF if you move Morse.
Stublues33 -- great idea on the guess -the-date-prince-signs. The tie-breaker can be which team.
I predict prince will sign on Jan 31 with the chicago cubs. (probably ridiculous, I know - but,whatever...) My question is - will he really sign by the time position players report? When is that date, by the way?
Steady Eddie - I did see the Gio games, nice upside for the Nats, but did mention it because he wasn't pitching for DC at the time.
I does paint an interesting picture (pardon the pun) for the staff this year, with JZimm, Det, and Gio on the list and no Stras. I really like the Nats rotation for 2012.
-Chris
I know some of you were curious for a comparison to the Phillies, so here's their top 10 in a couple of categories from 2005-11:
HOME RUNS
1. Ryan Howard 284 (2005-11)
2. Chase Utley 173 (2005-11)
3. Pat Burrell 124 (2005-08)
4. Jimmy Rollins 123 (2005-11)
5. Jayson Werth 95 (2007-10)
6. Shane Victorino 79 (2005-11)
7. Raul Ibanez 70 (2009-11)
8. Aaron Rowand 39 (2006-07)
9. Carlos Ruiz 36 (2006-11)
10. Bobby Abreu 32 (2005-06)
WINS
1. Cole Hamels 74 (2006-11)
2. Jamie Moyer 56 (2006-10)
3. Brett Myers 44 (2005-09)
4. Kyle Kendrick 43 (2007-11)
5. Roy Halladay 40 (2010-11)
6. Ryan Madson 38 (2005-11)
7. Jon Lieber 29 (2005-06)
8. Joe Blanton 26 (2008-11)
9. Cliff Lee 24 (2009, 2011)
10. Cory Lidle 21 (2005-06)
Sec 215 - if I could type I would be dangerous - of course it was 59,thanks for catching that.
My prediction on the Prince signing is the Rangers by Jan 30. I am not happy with that but at least we won't see him as often.
Not that I am ever interested in what the Phillies are doing but it is interesting to me that 4 of the top 10 HR hitters have been with the team for the entire time and Ruiz joined them one year later.
Someone earlier used the word "nomad" for our plucky lads and that basically is what it was. Not sure if this was Bowden's fault or our owner but we have not had a lot of keepers have we?
Not a big Bowden fan but he had to work within the budget he was given, initially by MLB.
In other news, RIP Etta James.
Since I first read about the unusual opt-out clause in Yu Darvish's contract, I've been wondering if there's any applicability of that model to Prince Fielder. Here's a good description (including analysis) that I just came across of the Darvish contract:
http://www.bbtia.com/home/2012/1/19/yu-darvish-the-win-curve-and-the-genius-of-the-contract.html
In essence, Darvish can opt-out after five years if he's performed exceptionally well. This might seem to be a counter-intuitive option from the Rangers' standpoint, but it gives their new pitcher a tremendous incentive to perform. And even if he performs at that exalted level and they lose him, they've at least gotten those exceptional years from him. Not the usual ways teams approach options, but a creative approach that might be applied to Fielder.
In the current market, Scott Boras seems unable to generate the 10-year, $25m/year contract that he originally sought for his client. Assume for a moment that's he now willing to consider a shorter (six- to eight-year) contract at the same $25m/year. What if, instead of an eight-year deal, a team were to offer a six-year deal with an opt-out after four years if Fiedler had reached certain performance goals? Those goals could be either numerical (i.e., averaging .300/.400/.500 and 35 HRs) or honorific (i.e., based on MVP votes, leading the league in HRs or slugging, Silver Slugger awards). If Prince reaches those goals and leaves, it's a shame and everyone gets upset, but he'd be 32+ and -- we all fear -- heading downhill anyway. If he doesn't reach those goals, he will presumably have been trying for them and either getting close or, perhaps, failing miserably. But failure was always a risk and now you've only got him for two more years, not four-six more.
This is not necessarily to suggest that the Nats should be offering Fielder such an option, but more a thought experiment about how the Dervish model might apply to Fielder. And wondering whether his super agent would go along...
Just Wondering, good points on Darvish. Interestimg comparison to Prince.
Mark Hornbaker said...
If you would like to see if any of these players rank in the Washington Senators / Nationals All Time Stat Leaders visit this link.
http://dcbaseballhistory.com/d-c-baseball-records/
Thanks for this link. I was not aware of this site.
I don't know how hard it would be to find this info - is the Ramon Ortiz, almost-no-hitter the deepest that any nat has gotten into a game without anyone getting a hit? I was at that game and will never forget it. I think he also hit a home run, bizarre. Also -- I wonder how deep we have gotten into a game without getting a hit -- I can remember games where I was quite afraid it was going to happen, but I don't remember how far it got. I just don't think anyone keeps records of that kind of thing. I don't remember any other pitcher going that far.
Just another point to follow Just Wondering, there are other benefits to that type of option. There is still risk for the player, because if they have 4 great years and opt-out, there is no guarantee the market will be any kinder than it was this time around. And no guarantee they get a better deal then they currently have. But it does allow everyone to walk away if the marriage is unsuccessful for other reason than player performance. If you are lucky, he turns it down and comes off the books as he declines.
Speaking of nomads and avoiding such things, if the Nats do NOT sign Prince Fielder, what is their long term plan at 1B? I can assure you it is not Ryan Zimmerman.
baseballswami: Yes, Ramon Ortiz took a no-hitter deeper than anyone else in Nats history, carrying one into the 9th inning on Sept. 4, 2006 before the Cardinals' Aaron Miles led off with a single. Ortiz then got Chris Duncan to line into a double play, leaving him one out shy of a shutout ... only to serve up a towering, upper-deck homer to Albert Pujols. Frank Robinson pulled him after that, and Chad Cordero got the final out.
And yes, Ortiz indeed clubbed a home run in the bottom of the eighth, sending RFK into pandemonium. I do remember saying to someone in the press box at the time that the home run would probably cost Ramon his no-hitter, because you could see he was so jacked up from hitting that thing, he was going to have a hard time settling down for the 9th inning. Sadly, that's exactly what happened.
As for other near no-hitters in Nats history, I'm not sure if there's an actual list anywhere, but I do remember Scott Olsen(?!) carrying one deep into a game against the Dodgers in 2010, and I also remember Jason Bergmann (?!) going deep once himself.
The closest I remember anyone coming to throwing a no-hitter against the Nats was Milwaukee's Wes Obermueller (?!) who took one into the 7th inning on May 17, 2005.
Verducci trying to pimp Fielder to the Rangers over on CNN/SI. An interesting read.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/tom_verducci/01/20/prince.fielder.yu.darvish/index.html?sct=mlb_t11_a0
The problem with that type of contract is that if Fielder doesn't live up to the hype and earn the performance incentives opt-out, you are still stuck with him. Darvish is only making around 10 mil/per, which is in and of itself undermarket (since the Nippon Ham Fighters are getting another 51 million or so). Darvish has an incentive to get out of the contract in order to get a better one. In your scenario Fielder would need to sign a below market attractive contract with us, or at least have those final years be low enough that he is incentivized to void them. The difference is, Darvish had very little leverage (exclusive negotiating rights, no MLB track record), Fielder has far more (free agent, established elite player in his prime). He is going to command upwards of 22-25 mil per year and if he is not putting up the elite numbers as advertised, two more years and 44-50 million is going to be a hard pill to swallow. What would work is if everything were done with mutual opt out/buy outs where Fielder had the opportunity to excel and reenter the market in 3-5 years and if he underperforms the teams has the ability to cut its losses for a modest buyout. Still, I think Boras knows that the way to get money in those later years is by tying it to these next few prime years. Darvish is younger and would be expected to have a longer shelf life than Fielder - if all goes well Darvish has another big payday in front of him, Boras knows that Fielder probably only has this one. If teams are scared of his body when he is 27, how are they going to feel when he is 32?
I still say, if we can get him for 5-7 years at a cost that does not hamstring the franchise (i.e. prevent extending Zim), go for it. Otherwise tell Boras to go find a different sucker.
Mark - thanks so much for the expanded info! I don't trust my memory so well at times - but I remember we said the same thing at the game about the home run. I also remember Scott Olsen's game - I really thought he was going to turn out to be a decent pitcher. Not so much.....
Changing subjects, I've been reading a bit out the Fausto Carmona (as we once named him) situation. I hope everyone in Nats management realizes that they'll be double- and triple-checking things at U.S. consulates throughout the Caribbean this month and next. Even if a player is 100% clean on his identity, I can only imagine that everyone needs to apply for their visas early and be quick about providing any additional supporting dox that the consular officers may request. It wouldn't surprise me to see a spike in 'visa problems' throwing a monkey wrench into a number of spring training camps this year.
Players are signed often coming off of injuries. Chien Ming Wang and Mark DeRosa are 2 examples.
Signing a player coming off an injury as a free agent is an entirely different thing than trading for a player coming off an injury. Signing a FA only costs money, whereas trading for a player costs you another player and/or prospect(s). Injured players are worth much less in trade than they are as FAs. No one "takes a flyer" on an injured player by trading for him. Especially they don't trade a player of real value like Upton for a guy coming off injury like you have been suggesting.
Speaking of changing subjects, and of signings, check out the Morse news in Mark's Twitter updates at the top of this page (of course, he's probably new-posting me even as I type :-)).
Ryan Zimmeran - Without a doubt the 1st Hall of Fame of the 3.0 version of the Washington Nationals.
Beast mode extension!
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/01/nationals-extend-michael-morse.html
Like this move. It rewards one of the Nats own (yes, they traded for him, but c'mon!). It also may make him more valuable as a trade chip IF the Nats sign Fielder, Harper slugs his way to Nats Town and the Nats are able to acquire their own Unicorn (a high-OBP, excellent defense speedy CF/leadoff guy).
As well as clearly signalling that the Nats are making their moves without waiting around for Boras/Fielder to get off their keisters.
Looking forward to hearing the details on Morse's extension. The team option years are the key (and only reason to do it from the team's perspective). I am hoping for 2 option years.
JZimm next!
John C - depending on the length, it could be a 'No Prince' signal too.
I've kind of resigned myself to no Fielder. It just seems like Boras is trying to get him to Texas. If we lose him, I really hope they add someone good to the OF mix.
Wow. Zimmerman is truly the "Face of the Franchise." Too bad we're going trade him when Rendo is ready.
Lannan makes me laugh -- belly laugh: he wants 5.7 million in arbitration. He's averaged 7.25 wins per year -- and nearly 11 losses!! Is he out of his mind? Rather, will the Lerners actually give this space saving less than mediocre hurler that kind of money? Dont give Lannan the money -- cut him outright. We do not need him.
I never would have expected to see Lannan's name at or near the top of so many of these pitching categories. It's shocking and sad. But at least we have plenty to look forward to in the coming years as Zim, Gio, and Stras climb atop those lists.
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