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I will, however, have a special post up this afternoon, revealing my Hall of Fame ballot after the results are officially announced at 3 p.m. EST. So please check back later today for that.
Monday, January 9, 2012
Monday news and discussion
I will, however, have a special post up this afternoon, revealing my Hall of Fame ballot after the results are officially announced at 3 p.m. EST. So please check back later today for that.
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86 comments:
Bob Carpenter was announced as the TV announcer again last week, and resigned acceptance ensued. Did we get any similar announcement about FP Santangelo?
+1/2St.
Ladson (Idiot) is reporting that F.P. indeed is back as Bobby's color guy, and Vice President of Making Corrections to Bobby's Idiotic Hyperbole.
Carpenter: I don't know why the runner didn't tag up on that deep fly ball....
Santangelo: Well Bob, there were two outs on the play, and as every Little Leaguer knows, with two outs you run on contact.
Carpenter: That's a good point F.P.
Me: facepalm
FP had a longer contract (if I am remembering correctly). I think 3 or 4 years.
If memory serves, FP's status for this year was not in question. Also, speak for yourself regarding "resigned acceptance." I happen to like Bob just fine. To each his or her own. (Ducking and covering now.) :-)
MicheleS and I were searching our memory banks at the same time.
Anybody but Dribble.
I read that line "resigned acceptance" and thought maybe Carpenter had pulled a Riggleman. But when I went to Caddie's, he wasn't there.
A quick note on F.P......since last season was his first as a full time color commentator, F.P. came to Spring Training 2 weeks early on his own dime to get to learn the Nats. Dribble never did get to learn the Nats and especially not on his own.
I like Bob and FP. Maybe it's my Midwestern roots (life-long Washingtonian, but family's from Michigan), but I dig Carpenter's slightly hoaky delivery. No, there's not a lot of cynicism, snark etc. that seems popular with people in this area, but I like his positive energy. I find FP knowledgeable and hard-working as well.
#4
I like FP, especially after what we have had before. Not a huge fan of Bob but he is not horrible. Kinda funny when he gets his homerun voice on for a fly ball that does not even reach the warning track though.
Hall of Fame - I vote for Larkin and McGwire. I realize that will bring screams from the purists but I still think what he did deserves recognition. I also put Pete Rose in the Hall with the plaque reading "This man bet on Baseball", along with his stats including more hits than any other player in the history of the game. It's a Hall of Fame people, and McGwire and Rose were the best at what they did when they played.
I, also, am glad Bob is back. Although he does continue to say things like, "the 2nd baseman has not had an error in 20 games" which, of course, causes the error on the next play.
I'm one of those who is addicted to Charlie & Dave on the radio. It really hasn't been the announcing team that keeps me from watching, but the constant shifting between MASN & MASN2. The few games I did watch last year left me with the impression that FP brings something to the table that Dibble lacked (intelligence). Carpenter is what he is - A career play-by-play announcer.
Harry Caray gets soused by the sixth inning and forgets whether he's working for the Cardinals or the White Sox or the Cubs and becomes a national icon. Carpenter is a nice guy and gets hooted. Go figure.
Reminiscent of Van Patrick: "Farr goes up the middle for five yards on first down, reaches the 24, call it the 23 1/2. First and four from the 22." And has a fifty year career.
John Miller has it right. Give them the score every 3 minutes, turn the egg timer over, and everything will be okay.
1A..
Just means great minds think alike! And I am ducking and covering with you..I am fine with Carp being back.
Count me as a Carp guy, too.
As a MLB.tv viewer (cheaper version), I get the home team's broadcast. That means that half the Nats games I watched last season were MASN and the other half were with the local announcers. Believe me -- with a few notable exceptions -- Carpenter and FP are better than average.
Listen 95% to the radio, but Carpenter is a professional. Having watched the TV guys for some other teams--! He's ok.
Only time I can get Charlie & Dave on the radio is when I'm listening in my car on XM radio and the Nats have a home game. They are very good but usually my trip is generally no more than 30 minutes or so and I don't get the full experience of listening to them.
On the other hand I do watch many games (wife says too many) by way of MLB network and to me Carp and FP are a pretty good duo. The only games I can't get them is when they play Atlanta or Cincy and because of some black out rule (I'm on DirectTV)the east TN area is considered to be local market to those two teams. Reds announcers are okay but let me tell you, 2 or 3 innings of Chip Carey and Don Sutton are enough for me to select the mute button.
As long as Don Sutton ain't on, I'm happy.
I just wish MASN would fix the "Taylor problem".
"Jon Miller has it right. Give them the score every 3 minutes, turn the egg timer over, and everything will be okay."
I still miss Hank Greenwald, but covers a lot of ground out there. One of the few pxp announcers worth listening to for his own sake.
"but *Miller* covers a lot of ground..."
Don't you people have editors??!
If given a ballot, I would vote for Barry Larkin, Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines and Alan Trammell.
SJM308
I agree Larkin deserves to be voted in to the HOF this year. I would make McGwire wait a little longer at least until there seems to be some consensus on what to do about players who played in the "steroid era" and there will need to be some decision made soon because if they keep putting their names on the ballet and voters can only vote for 10 players by 2015 very few players will every get the 75% vote needed to get in.
As for Rose I would never let him in as long as he is alive and I was a Charlie Hustle fan. He broke a cardinal rule in baseball one that every player knows. I doubt he ever threw a game, he says he always bet for the Reds to win, but there is a danger to consorting with gamblers. Players in financial trouble in debt to unscrupulous people is not good for sports. Maybe I put him in when he is dead this should be enough of a deterrent.
I think Vinny Castilla is the first player who played on the Nationals to be on the HOF ballot. Vinny had a nice career 3 SS and an AS but not HOF material. Playing in Colorado probably helped his numbers too.
I like FP and occasionally he picks up something I missed like when Detwiler pitched from the stretch with no one on base. I'm used to Carpenter and we could do a lot worse.
Forced by subscription blackouts to listen/watch other broadcast teams, notwithstanding the fact that I'm a Nats fan for life, the Carp/FP team is above average.
I also think that they have greater than favorable comparisons to those guys that covered the post-season.
As a professional analyst of the sport, I really think that FP is at the top---I like his ironic sense of humor too!
Gooooooooooo Nats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'd have Bagwell, Larkin, Raines, Trammell, McGwire, Edgar Martinez on my HOF ballot for sure, and probably Larry Walker and Fred McGriff if I'm feeling in a big hall mood, and Bernie Williams if I'm feeling sentimental. Palmeiro is a tough case, after all, how many of us have wanted to wag a finger at Congress, even if we have to lie to do it?
It's a little sad there's not valid starting pitcher to vote for on the ballot at this point. I suppose Morris is getting some of those votes by default because the guy wasn't all that, one particular night excepted.
Given some of the really lousy announcers on ESPN and elsewhere, I'm very happy with the guys we have. My favorites were Don Orsillo and Dennis Eckersley when the latter was filling in for Jerry Remy. Remy and Orsillo can be very funny late in a blowout game--but our crews are both fine.
My HOF Ballot: Bagwell, Morris, Raines, Edgar, Larry Walker and that's it. Don't think Larkin should be in. Nor Trammell. Nor steroids guilty.
.............
As far as announcers go, I hope we hear this 200 times in 2012:
"Seeee Youuuuu Later!"
I'll never understand why tv play-by-play guys now talk more than their radio counterparts. I mean, I'm also watching the game, so a large percentage of what they say is redundant since I can see it, and even if I don't it's replayed or there's the box in the corner for the count, etc. Carpenter seems excessive compared to most, but I think there was an article a few years back that tried to compile stats for announcers' word counts, and he wasn't as high up as I figured. But he really steps all over the action every chance he gets and won't shut up and allow things to just unfold without blathering on like he's paid by the word.
i just hope carpenter can take another vacation and bring on dave jagler for a couple of games. carp and fop are fine, but the best bet is still to pause the tivo and listen to charlie and dave.
my hof ballot: larkin, trammell, bagwell, raines, martinez
i mean fp not fop. hardly
I'm glad Bob is back and F.P. was a major upgrade over Angry Rob.
As for the HOF, I'm afraid were equating "above average" with "great" Only Larkin seems to come close to great and even then I'm not fully convinced. I would not be shocked if no one is voted in this year.
As far as announcers go, I hope we hear this 200 times in 2012:
"Seeee Youuuuu Later!"
What will that get us, about 125 home runs?
Edgar Martinez does not deserve to be on the ballot. He didn't play a postion. He held a spot in a batting order.
Feel Wood, brilliant. How many times did Carp start the see you later to see it caught on the warning track. LOL
Edgar played third pretty well, it's not his fault the Mariners thought he couldn't stay healthy playing there. The DH is a position in the AL, so a team would be idiotic not to maximize it's potential in regards to their roster. There are plenty of guys who actually can't hit as a dh, Dunn being only the most recent example. He certainly could have handled 1st better than guys like Thome, Thomas, or Giambi.
I am most thankful that Carpenter is coming back. He has a very good voice, he is professional, and he is one of us in that he likes the Nats. Welcome back Bobby!!!
Corky
Dude,
If I understand you correctly by your standards a guy who comes to bat maybe 4 times a game but doesn't play a position is not eligible for the HOF. How do you feel about relief pitchers who throw maybe one inning a game for 60 or so appearances a year and rarely if ever swing the bat? If you are okay with the closer being eligible for induction but not the DH I've got a serious disagreement with you.
I will be shocked if Larkin is not voted in.
You guys not voting for Larkin do know that he was a shortstop?
Larkin has an MVP award so there is no arguing that at least for a short time he was better than his peers. I know plenty have an MVP and are not in the hall and Murphy has 2 I think.
Larkin also has 12 AS appearances, 9 SS awards and 3 GG awards and he probably would have had 4 more except Ozzie Smith got the 13 GGs right before him, it was kind of hard to take that title away from the Wizard of OZ.
Larkin also was a 30-30 man, stole 379 bases including 51 the year he won the MVP with a career success rate of 83%.
So he hit for avg. hit for power had excellent speed and was a GG'r. What did you want him to do sell beer between innings?
Also Edgar Martinez as a DH would have to have been the best right hand hitter in baseball (which he almost was for a short time), to be considered for the HOF.
All the others you can make an argument about except for Bagwell which if he was clean should be voted in too.
why do dh's not belong in the hall? as much as some people dislike it the dh is a part of the game (at least in the al) so if someone is the best in that era at that job then they deserve to be in the hall as much as anyone else.
Charlie, Dave, FP, & Bob are among the best in the business for my money. Few rival the DC radio duo. Funny, informative, and on the ball. I was not a fan of Dibble before, during, or after his service with MASN and was greatly relieved to be rid of him on XM as well. (BTW, Bowden really is pretty good on XM. He may have been lacking as a GM, but I look forward to hearing him in the evenings during drive time). Bob is better than most too. I hate it when football anaylsts call a baseball game and Bob true is a baseball announcer. He understands the sport.
Knoxville -- MLB audio is about $30 and they don't black out any games.
Bowden is pretty good on Baseball Today also. Once gave a long list of the tasks a GM has to do right after the season is over--and that didn't count rescuing kidnapped players. Even if he couldn't do the job, at least he knew what it was.
Feel Wood bringin' the funny today!
I would be disappointed if Tim "Rock" Raines didn't make it inthe HOF this year. I remember watching him while I was growing up in the 1980's...he could do everything on the field...a great combination of speed and power. A perennial All-Star and a Phillie-Killer...what's not to like?!? The Nats could sure use someone like him patrolling the outfield.
Love coming back here after commenting in the AM
1. I am a radio guy first, think that is because we had no tv growing up and it just seems pure. I love our two and hope they stay for a long time
2. I also agree with the point about closers vs. dhs. At first I was reluctant to include a dh but when you think about a guy who gets in maybe 80 innings a year vs a guy who bats 4 times a game I think its ok for both as long as they were the best at what they did.
3. I understand that Rose and McGwire will not get in but I still think they were the best of their era and if the plaque includes their negatives as well as positives, I am ok with that.
I'm happy Carpenter is back. I really like him and FP together.
Good one Feel Wood: "As far as announcers go, I hope we hear this 200 times in 2012:
"Seeee Youuuuu Later!"
What will that get us, about 125 home runs?"
I grew to like FP w/ Bob. Their chemistry was good by mid-season.
I love FP and would have been sad to miss Carp's call of dingers (and laughed out loud about how many actual dingers would result in 200 calls, FeelWood). I liked Dave's call of the game, too. I like them on the radio, and they are who I listen to on the MLB app if I'm not home to watch or there to watch. NatsJack, thanks for the tidbit about FP getting down there to learn our guys some. That's the sign of a real pro.
Looking forward to hearing about Mark's HOF ballot in a few hours.
I would love to see Pete Rose in the HOF. I think he belongs there in spite of his character flaws. There are already players in the HOF with character flaws, so why not Pete Rose.
McGuire, on the other hand, would not get my vote because of the steroids. I would not know if he could have made it without the steroids. I probably would vote for Barry Bonds because I think he had HOF career before he started steroids. I do not count him as the home run leader though because of the 'roids. I consider Hank Arron the home run king of the modern era and Josh Gibson the all-time leader.
They should wait until Pete Rose dies and then induct him and Giammati together the same year. Imagine the crowd they'd pull for that induction ceremony!
I'm fine with the MASN team. I like FP a lot versus the other clowns they have had in there. I do with MASN would add pitch count to the box in the upper corner like other networks do. As much as they talk about it it would be nice to see it on the screen.
Larkin, Morris in. No one else. Raines's ## are good, not great, except for SB. I think the problem for Raines is that he hung around too long. After age 32 he had one season w/ more than 109 games. Too many people remember him as a hanger-on than for what he did in his prime Expo years.
"Character flaws" does not describe Pete Rose. "Disgraced his uniform" would be more accurate.
As to McGuire and Bonds, "artificially enhanced his performance" is also not a character flaw. Baseball history, like it or not, is about comparing past and present performances. Their "records," such as they are, will be in the HOF. They don't need to be there.
Jack Morris' ERA is a little high for the Hall. He didn't pitch in the extreme pitchers' era of roughly 1960-1975 but also missed out on the steroid hitters' era. As for Pete Rose, if I were Commissioner, I would negotiate an abject apology for the betting in return for Rose being put back on the Hall list.
As for Pete Rose, if I were Commissioner, I would negotiate an abject apology for the betting in return for Rose being put back on the Hall list.
But Rose has already apologized. Fat lot of good that did him.
Pete Rose should be at the head of the Hall of Fame. He was a daily example of how the game is supposed to be played and respected. His gambling, whether addiction or corruption, should be discussed as a part of that Hall of Fame player's personality. Like you would discuss The Mick's alcoholism or womanizing.
Upon further research, I realize that Rose has apologized for the errors of his ways. He ought to be put back on the HOF list and let the sportwriters decide.
hallwagner said...
why do dh's not belong in the hall?
This is a hard question to answer because there are many reasons which I will probably not explain well.
When a player is being judged to see if he is good enough to be in the HOF you have look at the whole package. If the player was a very good or even a great hitter but was a poor defensive player they might not make it in because of their poor defense, think Adam Dunn. If you let a DH in who did not play defense you could argue that a player who played a position poorly even in the NL that it was unfair that their poor defensive statistics were used against them if their offensive stats were better than the DH who got in.
Maybe you can just say that defense is not important enough to make it one of the major reasons a player should be voted in. If that is true you would probably take Ozzie Smith and maybe Brooks Robinson out of the HOF.
Just as when you build a team you have to worry about how your position player will play defense, think PF, you should also take this into consideration for the HOF.
Additionally, when choosing a person for the HOF he is usually judged against his peers so if you are a shortstop you are judged against other shortstops, first base etc. Since there are not DH's in the HOF (you can argue Paul Molitor) it is very difficult to set what HOF standards you should hold them to. Just as it was very difficult for a reliever to make it into the HOF ask Goose Gossage or maybe Lee Smith now. It will be very difficult to be the first DH. Edgar Martinez would need to have at least 3,000 hits and a batting avg of .320 to have a good chance.
On the flip side the game has changed so that starting pitchers are going to have a more difficult time getting in because the 300 win plateau may not be reached again.
Every body can have their own opinion about this there is no rule or set number that has to be reached other than 75% of the people with ballots having to vote for you.
Anon @1:21... I like that.
There is no baseball rule against drinking or womanizing.
Baseball's gambling policy is still prominently displayed in every locker room, and it must be read annually to each player by a club employee.
QUESTION- Should Shoeless Joe Jackson, who received none of the Rothstein bribe, be considered for the Hall of Fame? A debate might be interesting.
With all the moves in recent years to get smart women like Suzy Kolber on the sidelines that can ask relevant questions, MASN hasn't figured out how to make this process work with Debi Taylor.
Is it Debi or is it MASN? I wonder if MASN is making Debi look bad as they give her only 2 or 3 questions she can ask or is Debi the ditz many people say she is? I am thinking it is MASN. I think Debi can ask more than "what was working for you tonight" or "how do you feel" or "what will you do your next outing" or "what was your approach".
Is it time to get FP down into the locker room after the game to conduct the post-game interviews and just use Debi during the game and pre-game? It is a step backwards from the 3 person format "2 in the booth" and sideline reporter. The Dodgers do it fine with just Vin!
Actually, it is disputed on whether Jackson received bribe money. He testified yes but recanted. But he probably did.
QUESTION- Should Shoeless Joe Jackson, who received none of the Rothstein bribe, be considered for the Hall of Fame?
Hall of Fame: No Shoes No Shirt No Service
Is it Debi or is it MASN? I wonder if MASN is making Debi look bad as they give her only 2 or 3 questions she can ask or is Debi the ditz many people say she is? I am thinking it is MASN. I think Debi can ask more than "what was working for you tonight" or "how do you feel" or "what will you do your next outing" or "what was your approach".
If it's MASN, then why doesn't Amber Theoharis look like a ditz? And why is Amber Theoharis allowed to be critical of the Orioles on her MASN blog if Debbi Taylor can't be equally as frank on hers?
Pete Rose should not be in. He bet on baseball which impacted his team's ability to succeed. I cite two examples assuming he always bet on his team to win.
#1 - Rose places a bet on his team to win in Thursday's game. He's used his best reliever three days in a row and should not use him a fourth day. However, he's up by a run and wants to win his bet. He uses his reliever thereby hamstringing his bullpen for a week.
#2 - Rose knows he has a good bet for tomorrow's game because of the pitching match-up. Today he's up by a run, but because he knows he's betting tomorrow, he saves his pitcher.
We need to understand that any time a player or manager starts betting, even on his own team to win, it calls into question the integrity of every game he's played in or managed. Once that happens, the game is ruined.
#4
Pete Rose should not be in. He bet on baseball which impacted his team's ability to succeed. I cite two examples assuming he always bet on his team to win.
If Rose was on the HoF ballot just as a manager you might have a point. But if he's HoF-worthy at all it would be as a player. Is there any evidence that he bet on baseball during his playing days?
Also, there is precedent for players being elected to the HoF even though they were banned from baseball for extended periods of time after they retired from playing due to taking employment from casino operations. I speak of Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays.
Joe Jackson's shoes are in the HOF, I've seen them ;).
The answer is maybe. He really only played 10 years and one of those he was injured.
However his last year he did bat .382 and lead the league in triples at age 32 with 20. Ruth batted 4th that year in AL .376 with 54 HR's changing the game forever.
I'd probably put him in because of the injustice of it. If it happened today not one of them would have been ban they actually won their court case and Kenesaw Mountain Landis ban them anyway for life.
There was no official policy before Landis, at least not one that said they would be ban for life. Seems harsh now but it was probably the right thing to do for baseball.
Watch Eight Men Out its a good movie.
Just to give you an idea on how harsh the gambling policy is Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays, both retired and both in no way involved in baseball anymore, were banned in 1983 after they were hired by casinos in Atlantic City, as greeters and autograph signers. Bowie Kuhn opined that a casino was "no place for a baseball hero and Hall of Famer"; Mantle and Mays were reinstated by Peter Ueberroth in 1985.
Rose thought that he would have no problem betting on baseball even after Mantle and Mays were banned for shaking hands at a casino?
Rose "great player" but either unbelievably arrogant or dumb as a box of rocks or maybe both.
Sorry Rose fans never, never, never getting in the HOF as long as he is alive.
With all due respect Feel Wood I don't think that matters. Imagine how our enjoyment of baseball would be impacted if we felt that the games were not on the level. It would be like the steroids issue times 100. Fair competition is the foundation of the game. There must zero tolerance for betting as a result, even for the guy who may be one of the greatest players of all time.
#4
Carpenter still needs a lot more experience. I wish he would get it in the minors and leave the majors to the pros.
Feel Wood,
Both Mantle HOF 1974, and Mays HOF 1979, were already in the HOF.
The were banned form attending any HOF ceremonies until they were reinstated.
No gambling, ban for life! Every player knows this no one else besides Rose since 1920 has every had to be ban for this. Rose F'd up big time.
Hey I loved the guy growing up even met him once. He probably could have worked out an arrangement with MLB if he had just come clean in the investigation but he lied his ass off even when they had damning evidence. When the HOF time limit for voting for him was just about to expire then he came clean. It really is very sad.
Only Larkin.
Rogers Hornsby was not only a big gambler on the horses(once one of America's most popular sports) but probably helped fix races.
With all due respect Feel Wood I don't think that matters. Imagine how our enjoyment of baseball would be impacted if we felt that the games were not on the level. It would be like the steroids issue times 100. Fair competition is the foundation of the game. There must zero tolerance for betting as a result, even for the guy who may be one of the greatest players of all time.
#4
This is why I asked if he bet on baseball as a player. What if he had retired from playing, got elected to the HoF after five years and then got hired to manage the Reds and developed the gambling problem? If you're going to make judgements about HoF worthiness on a player's whole lifetime rather than just his playing days, then eligibility for HoF should be limited to players who are already dead, wouldn't you agree?
No. In your scenario, I would have taken down his plaque.
#4
"If you're going to make judgements about HoF worthiness on a player's whole lifetime rather than just his playing days, then eligibility for HoF should be limited to players who are already dead, wouldn't you agree?"
The gentleman makes a good point....
No. In your scenario, I would have taken down his plaque.
#4
Has that ever happened, in any sport? O.J. Simpson is still in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, and he's currently doing time for crimes in Vegas.
The Olympics takes away medals all the time.
Capcha was "permit" -- I guess it favors Rose being in.
Sec 3, My Sofa said...
The Olympics takes away medals all the time.
For infractions committed prior to or during a competition, yes. But that's a different situation than we're talking here. This would be revoking an honor because the recipient did something wrong after the honor was awarded. Like if an Olympic gold medalist's medal was stripped because he failed a drug test administered years after the race was run. That doesn't happen.
A couple of you made a connection, without specifically stating it. If I'm not mistaken, Rose's penalty is exactly the same as that given Shoeless Joe, so if the HOF is open to Rose (who was proven to have bet on baseball), it has to be open to Shoeless Joe.
To bring up a different subject, although someone mentioned it on the side, is the beginning of the use of instant replay, apparently for fair/foul or catch/no catch. This is truly stupid. I speak as a a former umpire:
1. Fair foul calls are among the easiest to make...chalk or no chalk. To make it surer, add some color to the chalk.
2. Actually, the answer is simple. 6 umpires per game. Right now, you are using 2 extra umpires for the All Star game and playoffs. Therefore, baseball is having 2 extra umpires per game do something in the 40 or so most important games of the year that they don't do in the other 2,500 or so games.
3. The extra umpires give the game some interesting advantages.
a. Only two of the umpires would do the plate, switching off. The talent for calling the plate is very different than calling bases.
b. Assuming that the foul line umpires actually run, they should be right on top of any catch or trap. I know of a number of umpires who are almost perfect behind the plate and are regularly out of position on the bases.
c. The extra umpires should be able to rotate more smoothly and do a better job of covering centerfield.
By the way, forget trying to use optics for balls and strikes. The way the rules are currently written, it would be almost an impossibility, but an umpire with a real talent for balls & strikes and mistakes are seriously reduced.
1. Fair foul calls are among the easiest to make...chalk or no chalk. To make it surer, add some color to the chalk.
They don't use chalk any more, they use paint. No puff. So I suppose you could look at the ball to see if there's a paint smudge, but there might not always be. Instant replay would be quicker.
I could swear I've seen something white kick up on balls that hit the line.
Me, too. Maybe we were both hallucinating?
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