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US Presswire file photo Cole Kimball looked promising until a shoulder injury ended his season. |
Kimball had shoulder surgery in July to repair a torn rotator cuff and spent the second half of the season on the 60-day disabled list. But there's no DL during the offseason, and all players must be added to their club's 40-man roster by Friday. The Nationals were attempting to outright Kimball (who won't be ready to pitch until mid-2012 at the earliest) to Class AAA but couldn't slip him through waivers without another team claiming him.
Though Kimball won't be 100 percent healthy for a while, the Blue Jays decided to take a chance and acquire him now, hoping he rediscovers his pre-injury form. In 12 big-league games this season, the hard-throwing reliever went 1-0 with a 1.93 ERA.
Brown, meanwhile, was outrighted to Syracuse after a brief September appearance in Washington. The outfielder went 0-for-3 with two strikeouts before being shut down with a staph infection in his knee.
The Nationals now have 32 players on their 40-man roster, but they could add several minor leaguers before Friday to protect them from being selected in next month's Rule 5 draft.
87 comments:
I think they may regret this. Granted, theres a large degree of unpredictability in returns from shoulder surgery, but if they are clearing space on the 40 man for a Rule 5 player (who will more likely than not provide minimal utility), would not a half season of Kimball be more valuable? Then again, he may never come back, and maybe we steal another Jesus Flores in the Rule 5.
Mark, couldn't Rizzo have added Kimball to the 40-man roster just for the offseason and then put him back on the 60-day DL at the start of spring training?
It just seems like a big piece to sacrifice when there are 7 open spots on the roster. Do you think this indicates the Nats believe he won't come back from the injury?
Why would they possibly risk Kimball to exposure?? At worst they keep him on the 40-man all winter, then put him on the 60-day on April 1 and get the roster flexibility back.
Are they really that desperate for 40-man spots that they needed to take this risk??
Look. They are clearing space because there are 2 guys that were given 40 man roster spots out of the draft (Purke and Rendon). This means they are operating with amounts to a 38 man roster. There are a couple of guys that they have to protect and Derek Norris is certainly one of them. I wouldn't be too surprised to see Christian Garcia added, as well.
I like Kimball but there are plenty of arms in the system to take his place.
Honestly? He was expendable. A pretty good thrower, but once you include Mattheus, HRod and Clippard, you're pretty set on RHRP.
Nooooo! Cole is my favorite prospect.
I should never have bought the shirsey. This always happens to me.
Rizzo blew this, big time. Kinbal had value and you got a big fat zero. Last year the A's where in the same situation with HRod and instead traded him to the Nats with a 4A player and got a bunch of homers, 98 RBI's and two draft picks (when he signs elsewhere).
Mattheus is hurt, HRod can't find the plate and Clippard is your 8th inning guy.
Kimball may have had a shoulder issue, but he was a power arm in a system that doesn't really seem to have a bunch of them. At least not in the AA-AAA level. Who on Syracuse/Harrisburg is ready to rise up and get MLB hitters out with mid-to-upper 90s heat?
I liked Kimball, too... I'll hold off being offended, until I see the spring roster, though... I may be happier with who takes his place.
Cheer up, Jenn.... You now own a Vintage Collectable shersey!! ;-)
Tcostant... I'm sorry. I didn't know Hrod had shoulder surgery last year like Kimball.
And Willingham IS AN AMERICAN LEAGUE PLAYER. Being able to DH allows him to keep from getting hurt bouncing off walls chasing balls over his head. Why do you think Houston is chasing him? THEY ARE GOING TO THE AMERICAN LEAGUE.
Todd Boss said...
Mattheus is hurt, HRod can't find the plate and Clippard is your 8th inning guy.
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Having Kimball around would change these "facts". With Cole out at least 1/2 of '12, you still need to find that guy, right?
Wouldn't change.......
Following the 2005 season, then GM Jim Bowden tried a similar move, hoping he could sneak Darrell Rasner through waivers in an otherwise ho-hum roster assignment.
Instead he got claimed by the Yankees. Oh, the howls cascaded down upon the Nationals GM; how could he be so stupid as to lose Rasner for nothing when there were still spots remaining on the 40-man roster?
He played parts of three seasons with the Yankees, going 9-14 with a 4.75 ERA. He hasn't pitched in the majors since 2008.
Sometimes, we just have to admit that a general manager of a major league baseball team knows more about baseball than we do, and that losing Kimball was not really a loss.
Who knows, maybe Kimball is still being chased by the one-armed man (you have to be over 50 to get that).
I am with Farid: I think that it was a good gamble by TBJ, but it is a gamble. It isn't just a matter of holding a spot for him for 6 months and then plug him back in. He could take much longer, or never return at all. I don't know the stats offhand, but the % of players who return to their former selves from Kimball's injury isn't too high. I doubt that Rizzo would have exposed him without a real reason, either concern over his recovery or something else.
Farid - Harrison Ford moved the age requirement for that reference down to 30!
I don't know whether Dr. Richard Kimble could help Cole Kimball at this point.
This injury was a shame. Cole seemed to have promise and a great attitude.
Sad that we won't get to see Kimball's talent continue to grow on our team. He was very impressive in his starts before he was injured. I wish him well in his recovery and I look forward to cheering for him when the Nats play the Blue Jays in 2012. And you never know, we just might see him again some day in a Nationals uniform.
I should never have bought the shirsey. This always happens to me.
Perhaps you should think about not making fashion choices while you're drunk.
What I dont understand is that they let Kimball go and SLATEN is still on our roster. I odnt know what the hell they see in Slaten.
Holy cow. MLBTR says the A's are kicking the tires on Sidney Ponson.
What Bartolo hath wrought...
Somewhere Daniel Cabrera is playing long toss -- as I did with my cookies during his outings in 2009.
There's 3 or 4 other guys I'd have released prior to Kimball, shoulder surgery or not.
I liked Kimball as well but Rizzo didn't blow anything - If we have depth one place, its pitching and as much promise as he showed, he was not going to be ready this year if at all. Like natsjack said, we are basically operating with a 38 man roster this year because of Purke & Rendon. I am hopeful that Rendon moves up quickly but losing Kimball does not affect us at all this year. Interesting how people jump down Rizzo's throat on just about any move he makes. What a tough job to have. I guess you can't please all of the people, all of the time (hmmm, that sounds like the making of a good speech).
Help me out with the Brown move, does that mean he has cleared waivers and is ours again for this year or can anyone grab him now that he is on Syr. roster? I am guessing he is ours but I want to hear from the NJ experts. I am still hoping he breaks out but realize that is a small hope.
I am not jumping down on Rizzo's throat and I understand we have great pitching dept, But Kimball, injury or not was an astounding relief pitcher with closer potential. He certainly deserved a spot over a guy like Doug Slaten, injury or not. I mean the guy was a nat top 10 prospect just last year.
Tcosant, well said. Also, bad nobody wanted Corey Brown except the Nats. The Willingham trade was a big bust.
Don't the Nats get a chance to pull Kimball back from the waiver wire now that the Jays claimed him? Try to work a trade, or keep him on the 40-man? Mark, do we know for sure they are letting him go?
Look. They are clearing space because there are 2 guys that were given 40 man roster spots out of the draft (Purke and Rendon).
Agree with NatsJack @ the Miami Marlin address.
Harper is on that 40-man as well. But he will likely make this year's roster unless they determine that his fielding is still too suspect. Six errors in the AFL make a good case for that.
Johnson was pretty happy with the relievers that they have ... yes his opinion is really the most important: both Bowden and now Rizzo have raved about how he taught them both how
to build a bullpen. So ...
Its interesting that the Nats traded for and a took a waiver on Ryan Mattheus ... paid him well while he recovered ala' Wang. Look how that turned out? Of course he had TJ which has a far better recovery rate than shoulder surgery. Johnson appears to really like Mattheus.
If Kimball were TJ'ed the might have protected him.
Purke is looking better with every outing. As does Solis. Looks like two left-handed starters might be in the near-term offing.
can a player refuse to sign/play for a team that claims him off waivers??
They have 14 Rule 5 guys, and 8 spots to put them in. He may never pitch effectively again. I hope he does, he seems like good guy, but them's the breaks.
Tayo, sure. It's called "retirement."
Maybe Rizzo knew something we don't on Kimball?
Yes, the Willingham trade ended up being a bust but the sign of a GM that is learning is one that won't complicate his mistakes. Putting Corey Brown on waivers was the right move. I will give Rizzo credit by knowing Corey Brown probably won't be better than what he has already in Bernadina.
Help me out with the Brown move, does that mean he has cleared waivers and is ours again for this year or can anyone grab him now that he is on Syr. roster? I am guessing he is ours but I want to hear from the NJ experts. I am still hoping he breaks out but realize that is a small hope.
From NationalsProspects.com:
Cole Kimball was claimed off waivers by the Toronto Blue Jays while Corey Brown cleared them and was outrighted to Syracuse.
Does that help? In Brown's case all this means is that he doesn't get the automatic invitation to spring training. But I think its almost a certainty he will get an invitation and he will get to tryout at least for a backup role on the big club.
tayo, only if he is a Free Agent otherwise, its called Retirement.
@ Tayo, again--I may be mistaken, but I believe the date for not offering a contract (aka non-tendering) is next month.
Yes, the Willingham trade ended up being a bust but the sign of a GM that is learning is one that won't complicate his mistakes.
This is getting ridiculous. No it was not a mistake. In point-of-fact it helped both the Nats and Willingham. The guy really shouldn't play in the NL ever again with his injury history. He is now almost another Adam Dunn. Wait I bet you like the fact they let Dunn go because he had a bad year? What happens if he rips off a good one in 2012? Dunn still belongs
in the AL just like Willingham. Neither can really play the field well enough as a starter.
HRod + Brown was a good bargain. Brown still might come around just as HRod appears to be improving.
Todd, you're going to ding HRod for his control and mourn the loss of Kimball? Seriously? Have you looked at Kimball's record?
Cole Kimball averaged 5.5 BB/9 for his minor league career; it "improved" to 5.3 BB/9 at Syracuse in 2011. In DC it was 7.1 BB/9 - OK, a SSS, but it's not like he was hitting the zone in the minors. His ERA was good, but so was Slaten's in the early part of the season, remember? Kimball didn't give up many runs in just 14 innings, but his WHIP was 1.357. Like Slaten, Kimball's low ERA was simply not a good indication of how he pitched. Add a torn rotator cuff & surgery to the mix and it's understandable why the Nationals were OK taking the risk and didn't feel the losing him was a major setback.
Kimball has some potential, and it would have been nice to be able to stash him someplace. But let's not pretend he was expected to be a major force in the Nationals' bullpen this year.
Drew8 said...
I don't know whether Dr. Richard Kimble could help Cole Kimball at this point.
Now that is funny!
Maybe Rizzo knew something we don't on Kimball?
Four words:
The Chief.
Shawn Hill.
Thanks anon:
I can type this over & over and will not convince anyone but there is NO WAY the Willingham trade was a bust. I like him, he was a good teammate and good in the clubhouse but he has been injured each and every year for the last 4. He is an AL type player in that he is a liability in the outfield. He had a nice year last year but again, if he had been here there is no way Riggleman would have given Morse any chance the way he loved his older guys. Now, what we got for Willingham is still up for opinion but I feel like HRod is going to get better and better and he will be a huge factor in our bullpen this year. He thrived in the last 6 weeks of the season and his potential has still not been reached. I guess I am just repeating what I have said in many other posts but I hate that Rizzo gets hammered on this one.
One more question on waivers. If a player clears does that mean we own him for the entire year? and can he move up and down from minors to the majors or is that a totally different situation?
Sorry to be so ignorant of this stuff. I am still working on my faux GM degree.
Steve M. said...
sjm, when Willingham was traded for a reliever and Corey Brown, I thought Rizzo and his scouting found a diamond in the rough in Brown. Corey struggled in AAA until August where he got back over the Mendoza hump. His stint as a September call-up was cut short by his staph infection. He is injury prone and turns 26 in 2 weeks and is getting to the point of no return. Chances of him being any more than a 5th outfielder is slim & none.
It has made that Willingham trade who is a Type A Free Agent a bad trade in hindsight. HenRod got a roster spot and learned while on the job and while he had some shades of brilliance, he was most an inconsistent thrower.
The A's will get 2 Draft picks if Willingham doesn't accept their FA arbitration. Those picks as we know are valuable to build a successful farm system and team.
November 15, 2011 1:13 PM
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SteveM wrote this yesterday afternoon about Corey Brown "Chances of him being any more than a 5th outfielder is slim & none."
I guess Steve knew somehow this was going to happen on Corey Brown. The good news is Brown remains a Nat and gets a 2nd chance to prove he belongs.
Ok I am less mad about the Kimball waiver pickup. Reading around, I have found out that an injury and surgery to the rotator cuff like Kimbal had is a very difficult one to recover from and there is supposedly less than 50% chance he returns and that if he does, he probably looses velocity and control. Too bad for Kimbal. I really do hope he recovers well with the Bluejays, but I now understand why Rizzo was willing to take the risk of DFA him.
Or maybe not, two words:
Joel Hanrahan.
sjm, they traded Willingham long before Spring Training and giving Morse the chance. I will say it again, Willingham should have been traded, it was what Rizzo got in return that was the problem. It was a bad trade!
You are correct, Willingham fits best in the AL and don't be surprised if a NL signs him in Free Agency.
The proper way to handle Willingham is in a platoon if he plays in the NL so you don't overwork him. Other teams have found the proper ways to play ex-Nats like Nyjer Morgan. Platoon outfielders are becoming more en-vogue as you don't have the continuity issues you have with middle infielders. I would suggest the same treatment with Werth and Coco Crisp.
OK, clearing up a couple of things...
-- The Nats could not have pulled Kimball back off waivers. There are "revocable" waivers after the July 31 trade deadline (which is how guys get pulled back when another team claims them). But during the offseason, all waivers are "irrevocable," which means they can't be pulled back if claimed.
-- The Nats' hope was to send both Kimball and Brown to Syracuse without losing them. But in order to do that, each player had to clear waivers first before he could be outrighted to the minors. Brown cleared. Kimball, obviously, did not.
-- Recovery from rotator cuff/labrum surgery is no sure thing. Tommy John surgery has a high rate of recovery. Not the same for shoulder surgeries, and for proof of that just ask Chad Cordero.
-- At best, Kimball will be ready to pitch again in midsummer. But there's no guarantee he'll be ready by then, and there's no guarantee he'll be the same pitcher post-surgery. So there's a risk on the Nats' part letting him go, but there's also a risk on Toronto's part acquiring a pitcher who at best won't be healthy until July.
-- For those wondering why Kimball was dropped now but Doug Slaten remains on the 40-man roster, Slaten is an arbitration-eligible player, so there are different rules that apply in his case. Slaten could (and most likely will) be non-tendered before the Dec. 12 deadline.
sjm, "One more question on waivers. If a player clears does that mean we own him for the entire year? and can he move up and down from minors to the majors or is that a totally different situation?"
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Yes, you own him for the entire season unless you make a move with him back to the 40 man or 25 man and try to remove him again. In order to be called up to the Majors, he would have to be on the 25 man (which means he is then automatically on the 40 man) and then have options to be sent back down without waiving him and going through this all over again.
I don't know much but I watch a lot of Nats baseball and HRod's 7th inning against the Braves in our last homestand was the best 3 outs any of our relievers pitched all year. Painted corners with both the fastball (~100) and curveball and made a big league hitter try to bunt in surrender on a 3rd strike. Now we've got two solid setup guys and one of the best closers in the league. Good luck to Kimball but I'll take our reality over that prospect any day of the week.
Remember, there are MiLB Free Agents like Shairon Martis that Rizzo may be looking to add back to the 40 man.
Or maybe not, two words:
Joel Hanrahan.
As Mark astutely observe: this is an entirely
different case. Hanrahan was healthy!
That trade was about getting Joel a fresh start
away from the bad Karma in DC. Again, Rizzo doing what's right both for the club and the player as he so often states he tries to do. I see no problem with that. Its good business as you want your club to have the respect of players and especially free agents. Think Albert Pujols, Prince Fielder, Zach Grienke.
The proper way to handle Willingham is in a platoon if he plays in the NL so you don't overwork him. Other teams have found the proper ways to play ex-Nats like Nyjer Morgan.
Again, its like beating a dead horse? Yes perhaps a platoon with Morgan works. He has great wheels. As does Bernadina. Willingham DOES NOT and they are getting worse every year! And he is over 30!
The guy was a catching prospect with the Marlins right up to when he entered the majors. Catcher is a far more valuable defensive position than the outfield! And Willingham literally spent years learning his craft! And he came with big offensive potential!
So, then, why would the Marlins move him to the outfield? KNEES. KNEES. KNEES.
NatsLifer, MPHrod had 1 brilliant inning and his consistency was inconsistent. When he transitions from a fireballer to a control pitcher with velo, then he will be a great one. I'm not sure if he can do it.
I heard Verlander talk about his transition from trying to throw 100mph fastballs to hitting locations.
Sandy Koufax said it so right, "The only time I really try for a strikeout is when I'm in a jam. If the bases are loaded with none out, for example, then I'll go for a strikeout. But most of the time I try to throw to spots. I try to get them to pop up or ground out. On a strikeout I might have to throw five or six pitches, sometimes more if there are foul-offs. That tires me. So I just try to get outs. That's what counts - outs. You win with outs, not strikeouts."
I liked Cole also, but look how long it took Chien-Ming Wang to recover and he is one of the lucky ones to recover at all. I had high hopes for Cole, but that's the way it goes. The interesting thing to me is that the Nats have become good enough, progressing to the point where we are going to lose some of our favorite players as choices have to be made. Not everyone, including me, is always going to be happy with those choices. However I put my faith in Rizzo to do whats best for the Nats.
If Cole Kimball had cleared waivers, than that would have been great. If not, you have to figure a potentially better player can move into that spot.
If Cole Kimball had cleared waivers, than that would have been great. If not, you have to figure a potentially better player can move into that spot.
A healthier player, possibly a reliever who might be able to step in if there are injuries in the bullpen. Its possible Kimball would be unable to do that until 2013 or beyond.
Gonat -
Here's the line from September:
STATS IP H R ER BB SO WHIP ERA
September 12.1 8 3 3 4 14 0.97 2.19
I take the "half full" approach here and believe that all the hard work paid off for a guy that's still very young and learning how to do his job.
Let's talk again in June about how the first half is going.
Thanks for clarifying that Mark. The only thing that they might have tried with Kimball is to bump his pay to say $200k even if he is in the minors, to discourage some other team from taking him. Because I am pretty sure if they get him on waivers, they inherit his contract. The Red Sox did this successfully with Andrew Miller this year, I think. Not my money (directly, any way) so I would have been cool with it, but then they have upped the cost of the gamble for themselves, too.
On the Willingham trade, I like it and would do it again. Part of that is the potential of HRod plus 5 years of team control left, with two of them at per-arbitration rates. But more importantly, Willingham has never gotten good value in a trade. A's couldn't trade him this past July. Given their money problems, they may not even tender him arbitration this year, for fear he'll accept. At $7m per season, I think HRod may actually have more trade value right now. That assumes that Willingham was signed to a contract paying him $7m per season, which is my guess to his market value, and then on the trade market.
Platoon Josh Willingham!? 30 HR players do not end up in platoons, folks.
Tough call for Rizzo on Kimball, as the guy has a decent chance of coming back with closer type stuff in 2013, but that is far from being likely.
dfh21
What are our plans for Yuneski Maya? At this point, he has no future with the Nats even if he finds a way to put forth a good season with AAA. why is HE still on the 40 man roster. sometimes you just have to give in and realize you made a bad investment and let it go.
Natslifer, much improved. No doubt about it. There is an old saying about making decisions on September results.
I am much more encouraged but not ready to say he all of a sudden figured it out.
We will see in April!
tayo said...
What are our plans for Yuneski Maya? At this point, he has no future with the Nats even if he finds a way to put forth a good season with AAA. why is HE still on the 40 man roster. sometimes you just have to give in and realize you made a bad investment and let it go.
November 16, 2011 6:13 PM
_________________________________
I wouldn't say "no" future, although I am in the camp that doesn't see him as a viable starter. Maybe a reliever.
why is HE still on the 40 man roster. sometimes you just have to give in and realize you made a bad investment and let it go.
Another unique case. And everyone is all over Gorzelanny who actually pitched better than Lannan in 2011? The Nats paid him a lot of money (see Jayson Werth) when they signed him as a free agent. Are Rizzo and the Lerners ready to call that the risk of doing business and baseball and write him off. I suspect the Lerners would be less than enthusiastic.
Werth had a terrible year. Do you think they should just cut him? Do you think that's wise?
Boy when snow is on the horizon so many brains appear to go into hibernation?
I don't know the specifics of his contract, but if we took Maya off the 40 man via waivers, and someone else claimed him, wouldn't they have to assume the remainder of his contract? If that's true, it might be a good strategy.
If someone takes him, we get out from some salary obligations. If not, we outright him to AAA and keep him in the organization, so if he turns it around we still control him but he isn't clogging up a 40 man spot in the meantime.
I was glad I got to see Cole pitch for us, and wish him good luck. I'm even MORE glad I read Mark's comments that Slaten likely will be DFAed, because I was hot under the collar for a moment that we kept him and lost Cole. All's good now.
Its not a matter of him being cut because he had a terrible year. He is not really young, he has shown nothing and from this point on, our rotation and Bullpen will NEVER have a spot for him or a player like him baring massive injuries to to many of our ML pitchers or pitching prospect. Right now, both Detwiler, Peacock, Milone and Meyers are better candidates for either our rotation or bullpen. And we have other bullpen prospects like Zinicola, and Rafael Martin. Wealso have prospects like Purke and Solis that would be ready soon. So, where is the spot for Maya in our future. This argument might apply to Lannan too although he is a proven commodity but this might be the best time to sell to get the best value.
@ Annonymous 6:20 Also, Maya does not equal Weth and I dont have to explain to you why.
Damn. Kimball was such a promising prospect. Best of luck to him in the future!
Also, I think if the Jays change their minds, they can sell him back to us, cheap, if they need the roster spot, right?
Wally said...
I don't know the specifics of his contract, but if we took Maya off the 40 man via waivers, and someone else claimed him, wouldn't they have to assume the remainder of his contract? If that's true, it might be a good strategy.
If someone takes him, we get out from some salary obligations. If not, we outright him to AAA and keep him in the organization, so if he turns it around we still control him but he isn't clogging up a 40 man spot in the meantime.
November 16, 2011 6:40 PM
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When you have a guaranteed contract like Maya, it is the team that wrote the contract (Nats)that assumes almost all the contract as the acquiring team is responsible for only the league minimum.
Gonat - I thought that was true only if they passed thru waivers unclaimed. Then they are free to sign with any team at league minimum, with the original team making up the difference. If they are claimed, then the acquiring team has to pay the full salary, like CHW did with Rios a few years ago.
All of that applies to major league contracts, and you are probably right that they gave Maya a major league contract. In that case, my idea doesn't work, he would have to accept the assignment to AAA, and could become a free agent instead
@Anonymous 6:20
My recollection is that we acquired Gorzelanny in a trade with the Cubs where we gave up two fringy prospects.
At first, I was against the move. Now I'm intrigued to see what magic Rizzo has for his bullpen. I see Rizzo wanting the front half of his bullpen to be rock solid young power arms. There we have Clippard, H-Rod, and Storen. He will also want a long guy in Stammen. After that, he probably will want to fill out with veteran free agents or make additional trades to get guys who have experience in the bullpen.
About the only headscrather for me in recent bullpen issues was why we didn't offer arbitration to Joel Peralta last year. He pitched well for us in 2010 and he was a solid piece for the Marlins in 2011.
I just love it when there is lots of baseball news in the off-season. Let's hope there is more to come!
Unkyd
No, offer back is for Rule 5 drafts. If they don't want Kimbal on the 40 man roster, they'd have to expose him to waivers just like we did, and take the chance that someone would claim him.
Or, they can just wait 6 months and send him to the DL, which I'd assume they'd do, otherwise the claim makes no sense at all.
About the only headscrather for me in recent bullpen issues was why we didn't offer arbitration to Joel Peralta last year. He pitched well for us in 2010 and he was a solid piece for the Marlins in 2011.
Have the same opinion souldrummer. The skinny was that Peralta wanted a multi-year deal and the Nats didn't want to give him that given his age. But I 'm not sure what the real story is? Certainly he was a better pitcher than the now departed Coffey ... he too could close. Age and the fact he was not a power arm like the current short guys are? That would be a decent question for someone to pose to Rizzo at some point. And then ask if he (after his recent bullpen enlightenment at the hands of Davey Johnson) would make the same move?
I don't know the specifics of his contract, but if we took Maya off the 40 man via waivers, and someone else claimed him, wouldn't they have to assume the remainder of his contract? If that's true, it might be a good strategy.
He, like the top draft picks, was awarded a significant signing bonus which is more than six figures ... and no they would not pick up the rest of his contract the Nationals would in effect be paying him to play for someone else.
Didn't Peralta play for the Rays this year, not the Marlins?
One thing I don't understand and I'm sure someone can enlighten me is why the Nats had to use a 40 man roster spot for someone who is injured. I thought guys on the DL don't count against the 40 man. Does that rule go away in the off season? Did we have to keep Strasburg on the 40 man all last year until he came back?
Kimball is on his way back from a significant shoulder injury (shredded rotator cuff); Rizzo tried to sneak him through waivers to clear another roster spot & lost. As others have noted, Rotator cuff surgery has a lower recovery rate than elbow ligament replacement (TJ surgery), so the real risk is with the buyer in this case (TOR).
As for the case of Brown, nobody took a chance on him, so he'll probably get a NRI (non-roster invitation) to Spring Training in 2012. As far as the initial trade(s) goes, Morse = Willingham, Langerhans = Brown, so HRod is pure profit, with a 100mph fastball & five years of roster control. That counts as a 'win' for Rizzo, imo.
Sec 222: 60-DL players don't count against the 40-man roster limit in-season. Five days after the World Series ends (end of season), the overall roster for all teams must be pruned back to a maximum of 40 players, period.
Swang... Thanks. I was thinking of rule 5, you're right...
a clarification: Kimball was not Designated For Assignment. They asked for waivers, and the Jays did not waive, they said "we'll take him." Not a DFA.
HRod: Past performance is not always the best predictor of future performance. At some point, you're learning and getting better, right? So your performance gets better, it doesn't stay the same. Or it doesn't, and you do. But 2012 HRod might well be new and improved, with Upside®. And Corey Brown, as SteveM points out, is getting close to Root-Hog time, but he may yet manage something worth an MLB paycheck. Yes, maybe they might have gotten more for Willingham, but as a rule, GMs are not allowed to pull a gun on the other team and shout "SIGN THE EFFING DEAL!!" They get what the other side agrees to.
and just to pile on about the DL and 40-man rosters... think of it this way--if there are no games, there's nothing to be missing with an injury, so nobody is disabled.
Yep.
Section 222 said...
Didn't Peralta play for the Rays this year, not the Marlins?
Nats fans need to get used to the idea of their "favorite" players or prospects not spending their careers in Washington. Building a deep system means moving some of those parts to strengthen the major league club. The four aces in Philly weren't all home-grown. Deep Yankees and Braves and Red Sox systems are continually tapped in completing trades that have kept them in contention. We love Norris and Flores and Ramos but all 3 are not going to be Nats. Solis, Milone, Purke, Peacock, Myers, Strasburg, Zimmerman, Wang...somebody besides Wang isn't going to be a Nats hurler come 2014. Rizzo has already sounded the bell that he's looking to trade for a CF'er. Any number of us is going to find out that trades inevitably mean that our favorites are going to play elsewhere. That's simply a fact of life we'll all have to get used to if we want to see a championship flag hoisted over Nats Park.
Peralta was the Ray's closer ... with the Nats he was a setup man behind Matty Capps. Who is also looking for a job ... if the Nats need a veteran for the bullpen they should be able to pick one up with out making any kind of arcane deals.
I believe the 6 saves by Peralta is completely trumped by the 25 saves by Kyle Farnsworth so.....NOT... when calling Peralta the Rays closer.
Some of you don't get it. The issue is not if Kimball fit on this team or if he does well elsewhere. The point is he had value and their were all ready a bunch of space on the 40 roster. So it was a stupid gamble. This guy had major league success and threw gas. If he rehabs well; you might have a "chip" to trade for someone who help the team in July (or the following offseason). Just not a good gamble when you had a ton of space on the 40 roster anyway.
C'mon Tcostant.... If the Yankees wouldn't give up a roster spot for Chien Ming Wang, a 2-time 19 game winner, why would the Nats give up a roster spot for an untested 26 yo who has at least 5 guys in the organization to replace him?
There is *not* a bunch of space available on the 40-man roster. They have 32 currently on it, and 14 minor league players eligible to be picked if not protected, and Kimball wasn't even one of them. Put him on the roster, and you expose one more of them. For a guy who may very well never pitch in the majors again. It was worth a shot.
I'm not willing to call waiving Kimball a stupid gamble, because I don't know what irons that Rizzo and merry crew have in the fire. I do know that moving Kimball allows the team to add a space for another player from the minors that would be eligible for the Rule 5 draft, allowing the team to extend the 40 man spot to a Brad Meyers or Erik Komatsu (figuring that Derek Norris and Tyler Moore are locks). While Kimball did OK here (he throws hard but his control stinks - 11 BB in 14 IP in DC, and he averaged around 5.5 BB/9 in the minors), it's not dumb to choose protecting a Meyers or Komatsu over Kimball given Kimball's injury.
It's also important that the Nationals leave an open spot or two on the 40 man roster so the team doesn't have to waive someone else if they sign a FA between now and December when they can start ditching the arbitration-eligible players like Slaten. It's also possible that there are multi-player trade talks in the works. Bottom line, we don't know. And everyone please consider this important concept:
Just because you and I don't understand the reasons why something was done, doesn't mean that there aren't good reasons. It just means that we haven't figured them out yet.
NatsJack in Florida said...
C'mon Tcostant.... If the Yankees wouldn't give up a roster spot for Chien Ming Wang, a 2-time 19 game winner, why would the Nats give up a roster spot for an untested 26 yo who has at least 5 guys in the organization to replace him?
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Answer: Salary, high gas fastball and his last ML time he was highly effective. Where Wang was very ineffective, much bigger salary and was not a gas throwed.
All I'm saying it was a bad gamble. Leave him on the 40 man roster, if you needed that space later you could have tried then.
Dana Brown has a good eye for talent and Kimball is talented but his injury could not have happened at a worse time for him or a better time for the Nats because we have young guns in the pen and more in the minors so we can absorb this loss.
Tconstant: Kimball wasn't that effective in his (very limited) MLB time. He threw gas (95+! 11 K's in only 14 innings!) but he didn't throw it accurately (11 BB's in only 14 innings, a 1/1 K/BB ratio!). He allowed four of five inherited runners to score, but his teammates bailed him out so that his ERA was artificially low (what we in the trade call a "Slaten").
Kimball has upside, and may close someday IF: (1) he recovers fully from a shoulder injury that does not offer a high success rate of recover; (2) he learns to throw strikes; and (3) he stays healthy despite a violent, max-effort pitching motion. Contrast his motion with MPHRod's - how MPHRod generates his heat when he doesn't look like he's working hard just amazes me.
I wish Kimball well, but I can understand why the team would rather be able to open slots to protect/sign Rule 5 eligible players, cut a trade, or sign a free agent or two.
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