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Associated Press file photo
Davey Johnson and Earl Weaver at Orioles spring training in 1996.
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So today's news of Weaver's death at 82 struck a particular chord with Johnson, who held a close relationship with his mentor for more than four decades.
Johnson issued the following statement, via the Nationals:
"I grew up in the minor leagues with Earl Weaver and we proceeded to spend a significant portion of our lives together. He was as intense a competitor as I have ever met. No one managed a ballclub or a pitching staff better than Earl. He was decades ahead of his time. Not a game goes by that I don’t draw on something Earl did or said. I will miss him every day."
R.I.P., Earl. Deepest condolences to Marianne and the entire Weaver family. He will be greatly missed.
ReplyDeleteThanks for lots great fun. I lived and died with your club for a long time. My favorite memory -- once many years ago when the umpires had indicated a game was complete, your argument conviced them it was not over and the umps called the teams back onto the field from the clubhouse. Priceless. Thank you for all the fun, and godspeed.
ReplyDeleteCondolences to the Weaver family and to his many close friends. What a legacy Earl leaves behind.
ReplyDeletePerfect quote from Davey - Earl was the anti Riggleman. One of his many quotes and I will butcher it "if you play for one run, that is all you will get". It is one reason Davey does not sacrifice all that much or stress stealing bases. Several have speculated that we will run more with Span at the top of the order, and maybe we will but I am not convinced that Davey will turn us into a track team.
ReplyDeleteGo Nats!! World Series or Bust!! RIP Earl
Love that quote, sjm. I think it's actually "that's the most you'll get."
ReplyDeleteGPG + 3RHR = W
My condolences to the Weaver family.
ReplyDeleteA small part of my childhood died today. The way I think about baseball was greatly affected by watching how Earl managed. Winning over 100 games 3 years in a row is quite an accomplishment. I believe except for his ill advise one year return in 1986 he never had a losing record.
RIP the Duke of Earl.
Earl was the anti Riggleman. One of his many quotes and I will butcher it "if you play for one run, that is all you will get". It is one reason Davey does not sacrifice all that much or stress stealing bases. Several have speculated that we will run more with Span at the top of the order, and maybe we will but I am not convinced that Davey will turn us into a track team.
ReplyDeleteWhich is why I still think you might see Werth at the top of the order when all is said and done. Because on this team he fits. Rizzo still wants to build Giggleman's Island. Which to me is unfathomable. Sometimes you just have to learn the hard way I suppose? I suppose we'll have a Giggleman clone in 2014 to manage the team.
From Boswell's column today, quoting Weaver:
ReplyDelete“Until you’re the person that other people fall back on, until you’re the one that’s leaned on, not the person doing the leaning, you’re not an adult."
Wow. That's wisdom that a hell of a lot of young people with a sense of entitlement should learn. And from a guy who never finished high school, let alone went to college.
"OK.....I have to say this....."
ReplyDeleteDo you? Really?
Yep.
ReplyDeleteAd Hominem attacks ... and the ubiquitous pot calling the kettle black.
Tired old man talking if you ask me.
Have to admit FeelWood said it better than I ever could:
ReplyDeleteIt would seem that the thing that makes enemies around here is an opinion that differs from that of the anointed few. You know who you are. Tone of comments has nothing to do with it.
Cue in the 'anointed few' or as I like to call them: the junior high clique.
MLB Public Relations @MLB_PR
ReplyDeleteMore sad news to report. @Cardinals icon and Hall of Famer Stan Musial has passed away at the age of 92.
People not taking other people seriously is probably a good thing. Lighten up and have some fun--life is too short!
ReplyDeleteR.I.P. Earl. Condolences to the Weaver family.
ReplyDeletewow Stan Musial just passed away as well, sad day for the baseball community
ReplyDeleteWow. City of St. Louis will be dragging butt... Is there a bigger local sports hero... anywhere? RIP...
ReplyDeleteI thought Davey was in Africa, but apparently he's in New York. :)
ReplyDeleteNL Manager of the Year
MLB Public Relations @MLB_PR
Davey Johnson of @Nationals accepts NL Manager of the Year award. @officialBBWAA pic.twitter.com/VAF0KGt3
And, here's the Kid.
ReplyDeleteAmanda Comak @acomak
RT @mlb_pr: Bryce Harper @Bharper3407 of @Nationals accepts NL Rookie of the Year award. @officialBBWAA pic.twitter.com/joo3YKeD
Nat's Lady if you post another death today we are going to change your name to the grim reaper.
ReplyDeleteStan the Man was truly a stalwart of the game. If he had played in New York his name would be right next to Ruth and Gehrig. I'm sure all Cardinal fans are in mourning.
RIP Stan Musial.
Fox, yeah, it's a sad day for baseball. Trying to balance it with some pleasant news...
ReplyDeleteNatsLady I appreciate the news you're better than my ESPN insider at giving me timely news.
ReplyDeleteBoth men had wonderful long lives. While it's sad it's not tragic.
I do wish both their families my condolences. I'm sure they will both be missed. I can only imagine what it must have been like to have a baseball discussion with either of them.
No prob, Fox, me and the kitties are just sitting here with Twitter & the Caps game...wishin' it was baseball...
ReplyDeleteWasn't it New Yorkers who gave Stan 'The Man' Musial his sobriquet?
ReplyDeleteRIP to both Mr. Musial and Earl Weaver. Two baseball greats.
Derek @NOTSCMLB said it best: Stan Musial has died. Two legends in one day?! I'm going to bed, today sucks.
ReplyDeleteEugene,
ReplyDeleteI don't know the answer to that? I guessed sobriquet's meaning by context but I did have to look it up ;-).
Last year you had one of the funniest post I read all year. I can't remember what it was but I literally laughed till it hurt.
This board gets a little strange in the off season. I guess everyone can't wait to see what this team can do.
Bill James ranked Musial higher than Ted Williams in his historical abstract. Wrote that he'd prefer Musial in the field, on the bases, and in the clubhouse, advantage to Williams only at the plate. Then he added, "And Musial could hit a little, too."
ReplyDeleteEugene,
ReplyDeleteYou are correct. In the Sporting News story it says,
According to the National Baseball Hall of Fame, Musial earned "The Man" nickname "by (Brooklyn) Dodgers fans for the havoc he wrought at Ebbets Field."
http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2013-01-19/stan-musial-dead-st-louis-cardinals-legend-92-years-old-hall-of-famer
I think it helped that it rhymed :-).
So there has been a HOF manager and a HOF everyday player?
ReplyDeleteI don't know if I'm Bob Gibson I'm going to bed right now.
(said only in jest)
My favorite Earl Weaver quote:
ReplyDeleteWhen Dennis Martinez complained after being moved from the starting rotation to the bullpen, Earl said-"I gave him more chances than I gave my first wife".
You gotta love it!
Fast Eddie, I've seen that attributed to both Jim Palmer and Mike Cuellar. One of those stories where you wonder where the truth really lies.
ReplyDeleteEarl took over the O's 2 months before I was born, and until I was 14 years old he was the only manager of "my" baseball team I ever knew. And while I hate the current AngelO's and how he ruined a once great franchise, Earl's Orioles were a wonderful piece of my childhood. Thanks for the memories Earl, you were one of a kind.
ReplyDeleteDitto all that NatsJim. One of my favorite quotes about Earl was from Jim Palmer, "All Earl knew about pitching was that he couldn't hit it."
ReplyDeleteI wasn't much of a Earl Weaver fan, mostly I think because he managed the team that pulverized the Senators year in and year out.
ReplyDeleteBut Stan Musial? Man oh man, I loved "Stan the Man."
I visited my grandmother in Birmingham in '69 or '70 and she took me to Rickwood Field to see a Birmingham A's (AA) game.
That night, Mickey Mantle and Stan Musial were there for some reason signing autographs (I remember that Mantle was opening a Ford dealership in the area but can't remember why Musial was there).
Mantle oozed arrogance (at least it seemed that way to a 13-year-old kid). I handed him a baseball book to sign and he scribbled on it, glanced at it, and handed it back to me. Never looked at me once.
But Musial was smiling, talking to the fans, being a heckuva nice fella. He asked me if I played ball and I said, "Yessir, first base." He handed me back my book and gave me a 45-second how-to-play-first lesson.
Musial was one of the few players left from the golden age of baseball.
I'm feeling really bummed right now.
Farid @ Idaho
The Earl of Baltimore and Stan the Man, both gone but never to be forgotten. I raise my Diet Coke in salute to the departed and send condolences to their families, friends & loved ones.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Farid. I'm glad you write for a living.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Earl, from Bozwell's column this morning:
ReplyDelete●On managing: “A manager wins games in December. He tries not to lose them in July. You win pennants in the offseason when you build your team. . . . Smart managing is dumb. The three-run homers you trade for in December will always beat brains. . . . I don’t welcome any ‘challenge.’ I’d rather have nine guys named Robinson.”
●The only quote he ever tried to take back after he’d said it, because he didn’t want to hurt Gene Mauch’s feelings: “Gene Mauch — play for one run early, lose by one run late.”
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I don't see the team Rizzo has put together as a team that will play for one run early, but rather as a team that will set the table and beat you with runners on base as your power hitters come up. Additionally, with the defense this team has, and the pitching, I just don't see many runs getting scored often by the opposition.
The 2012 Nationals hit 194 home runs, only 18 of which were hit by Michael Morse. Morse, Desmond, Werth, and Zimmerman all missed substantial time. Harper came in late. Ramos missed almost the whole year. If the 2013 Nats power hitters stay reasonably healthy they should exceed their 2012 home run total,even without Morse, and should certainly score a lot more runs.
Incidentally,Weaver's great 1970 World Series winning Orioles hit 179 home runs [15 less then last year's Nats], but scored 792 runs to the 2012 Nats 731.That O's team struck out 952 times while the Nats struck out an astounding 1325 times.
Great post, Seamster...
ReplyDeleteI didn't know Earl but can appreciate his footprint on several current managers especially Davey.
ReplyDeleteFootball has evolved much more for coaches from 40 years to now than baseball has. I suppose Earl would say he hates the DH and the interleague games but probably wouldn't find anything he would change if he was managing a NL home game.
For those of you who were alive in the 60's, was there General Managers back then or did the Managers find their players?
ReplyDelete●The only quote he ever tried to take back after he’d said it, because he didn’t want to hurt Gene Mauch’s feelings: “Gene Mauch — play for one run early, lose by one run late.”
ReplyDelete____________________________________
I agree with the 1 run if Stephen Strasburg was facing Justin Verlander in the World Series. Each run is a premium otherwise I'd agree as you have to be playing for crooked numbers.
I could play all day with stats comparisons, but a couple of other glaring differences between the 1970 O's and last year's Nats:
ReplyDeleteThe 1970 O's had 55 stolen bases against them, and caught 44% of the runners attempted steals against them. The Nats had 111 stolen bases against them, but only caught 17% of the attempted steals.
On the other side of it, the O's stole 84 bases, but were caught stealing 39 times. The Nats stole a 105 bases and were caught 35 times.
My conclusions from these two comparisons is that the O's pitchers did a much better job holding the runners, and it is a big deal that the Nats pitchers and catchers need to improve on. My second conclusion, based on the second of the above stats is that Johnson is more inclined to run with the players he had then Earl was with the ones he had.
Gonat your post at 10:17 makes me wish that there was a "like" button here.
ReplyDeleteJoe, that's a good stat and its clear the Nats pitchers and especially the relief pitchers are real bad with holding on runners.
ReplyDeleteI read here this week something that Rizzo said that with the Nats acquisition of Span that the Nats would be running more. I guess kind of that prototypical NL East leadoff guy in driving opposing pitchers crazy. I like it!
Gonat, the great Yankees teams of the 1950s were run by GM George Weiss.
ReplyDeleteDavey's smart. I don't think having more speed nessecarily translates to running like 9 bats outta hell. Rather, I see more action on the basepaths, not to take every base that's possibly available, but to make the opposing pitchers and infielders consider (and worry about) as many contingencies as possible, and for an error, now and then. Because Davey IS smart, I think he'll see the value in this. I also envision the stretching of hits into additional bases, again, forcing the opposition to hurry, and make an occasional error. In pointy ball, the most prolific offenses are the ones with the most weapons, impart because the defense can't key on any one or two players, but must account for 5 or 6 threats. Same concept, here; if you show reluctance to bunt for a hit, and steal and hit&run, you allow the defense to focus on less deceptive options.
ReplyDeleteSo, I would expect just enough aggressiveness out of Davey to keep the opposition on their toes.
Candide said...
ReplyDeleteGonat, the great Yankees teams of the 1950s were run by GM George Weiss.
January 20, 2013 10:23 AM
__________________________________
Thanks. I check on Wiki too and it seems GMs have been around for a while. I just wonder if their job has evolved.
RIP Earl. I hope there's a shiney white home plate waiting for you to kick dirt on. And a pack of smokes waiting in the clubhouse tunnel.
ReplyDeleteJoe Seamhead said...
ReplyDeleteGonat your post at 10:17 makes me wish that there was a "like" button here.
January 20, 2013 10:20 AM
_________________________________
Thanks. Its never too early to dream of a WS of Verlander vs Strasburg and the way the regular season schedule looks, we may get to see it in the regular season.
UnkyD, I agree on the speed. Just having Span on base, whether he runs or not, causes havoc.
ReplyDeleteGonat: Exactly.
ReplyDeleteI'm enjoying reliving classic Earl Weaver moments like covering home plate with dirt and ripping up first base and tossing it in the stands. You knew the fun was beginning when he turned his cap around to avoid "making contact" with the ump.
ReplyDeleteHe was thrown out of both ends of a doubleheader THREE TIMES. And got tossed before a game while exchanging lineup cards at home plate! How does that happen? A fight with the wife on the way to the park?
sm13, I'll go you one better. First game of Spring Training, every manager in MLB runs on the field, turns his hat backwards, & gets tossed. Limo service to the nearest horse track or golf course.
ReplyDeleteGonat - absolutely on the GM question
ReplyDeletemaybe the most famous, Branch Rickey who was the driving force behind Jackie Robinson.
Managers had very little to do with player moves mainly because until Free Agency the player was at the mercy of the team that originally signed him. Still amazed that Marvin Miller is not in the Hall of Fame.
A great piece, from a NY newspaper no less, about the Nationals. I highly recommend taking a couple of minutes to read it:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/madden-nats-article-1.1243233
I keep looking at Stan Musial's numbers. Just incredible. One of the few negatives about baseball in DC during the 50's and 60's, besides the fact that we were god awful, was that you never got to see the stars from the other league.
ReplyDeleteIt made the All-Star game a special occasion and there were no playoffs either. One team from each league went straight to the World Series. Just think, last year that would have been US!!
Can you imagine how excited those last couple of weeks would have been with everyone trying to catch our lads?? Now TV money runs pretty much everything (sigh....)
Thanks Seamhead - always nice to read what others are thinking. Doubt if the NY Daily News would have used ink on us two or three years ago.
ReplyDeleteJoe Seamhead bringing it today! Thanks for the link!
ReplyDeleteHeck, Coach, they wouldn't have given it to us a year ago!
ReplyDeleteJust saw this on CBSsports.com
ReplyDeleteWe are the only team to get the top grade
Nats Core Values
Interesting interview on the WaPo side blog. 'Appears' that even Davey was surprised by the addition of Soriano.
ReplyDeleteSo the line of authority in the Nats' FO is Boras, Lerner, Rizzo, & last, but not necessarily least Davey.
I knew that Musial was exceptional, but I didn't realize how consistent he was over his career. What a guy!
Gonat, I think managers used to have more authority in roster matters than they do now. (Whitey Herzog, you may know, was once both manager and GM. That wasn't too long ago.) If you listen to the way Davey Johnson talks, he still implies that he traded or demoted or released some guy. More so than guys who started managing more recently, who talk more like middle management.
ReplyDeleteI suspect -- though this could be totally wrong -- that with the union contract bringing more complexity, GMs can't cede as much power to the manager as they once could. When every player was grossly underpaid, and there was no losing guys to free agency, you could let the manager dictate which players he wanted on his team. There was so little risk of unintentionally screwing yourself three years down the line with a rash decision. But now with arbitration eligibility and "team control" being such big factors, I think that teams want a business guy having the ultimate authority.
So, I don't think that managers ever literally made the trades and stuff (except for a guy like Herzog, who had two titles), but they have always had tons of input. I believe that managers also used to be -- not entirely, but more than today -- pretty much the main face of Management. Two decades ago, I maybe could have named my favorite team's general manager, but probably not anyone else's. That position has become more public, I think.
These are all just my impressions.
Scooter, that's good info.
ReplyDeleteHeard this stat on a podcast (Baseball Prospectus). In addition to not like to give out intentional walks, Davey doesn't like to pitch out. He called for a pitchout the least of all ML managers. Madden second least, Scoscia called for the most pitchouts. Davey just doesn't like to give away free stuff...
ReplyDeleteLook at how many doubles Musial hit year after year. He led the league eight times, the last time at age 33, and in triples five times. He was probably exploding out of the batter's box thinking triple every time he put the bat on the ball.
ReplyDeleteEarl Weaver may have hated the DH, but he managed with it so well the rule had to be changed.
ReplyDeletehow-earl-weaver-changed-the-dh-rule
http://prestonjg.wordpress.com/2009/09/07/how-earl-weaver-changed-the-dh-rule/
Watching MLB top ten relievers. Bill James has Soriano on his list. I need to do some catching up. I completely ignore all things Yankee. Just don't have any read on this guy.
ReplyDeleteSeam -- thanks for the numbers and you got me thinking about that era. In those days because there was no team here I followed that club. We fans of that club in that era perhaps didn't realize how very talented and well assembled that club was. With that pitching staff, waiting for a long ball often resulted in what came to be called Oriole Magic.
ReplyDeleteBecause we remember the flake part of Palmer -- quips about Earl, underwear commercials, silly comeback attempt, and so on -- it's almost too easy to forget that Palmer was one of the very best to ever play the game.
NatsLady, thanks for the Weaver/ DH link.I had forgotten all about Earl taking advantage of the loophole in the rule. Hey, you play the game to win.
ReplyDeleteCandide - my favorite Musial stat is Strikeouts.
ReplyDeleteHe NEVER struck out more than 50 times in a single season! I think his total number of strikeouts in 22 seasons was just over 600.
Just a great player and a real gentleman
Something to keep in mind when comparing Earl and Davey's managing styles is that from 1973 on Weaver managed with the DH which made him less inclined then ever to be a base stealing, hit and run type of guy. He didn't have to deal with weak hitting pitchers batting once the DH change went into effect.That's part of the reason that I used the 1970 O's team to compare with last year's Nats.
ReplyDeleteIncidentally,Weaver's great 1970 World Series winning Orioles hit 179 home runs [15 less then last year's Nats],
ReplyDeletePower doesn't necessarily mean the home run. The double can be almost as effective especially with men on base / RISP.
You really have to look at ALL extra base hits not just home runs and the percentage of extra base hits out of all hits by the hitter.
And one thing about Morse? He was legit when he hit the ball he scared the bejeesuz out of hitter because he always hit it so hard ... and when he did connect he hit it extremely far. A lot further than most in baseball. That does have a psychological effect on the other team and especially on the pitcher.
16.7% of T-Mo's flyballs/line drives went for home runs.
13.7 % of Morse's flyballs/line drives went for home runs.
13.7% of Desmond's flyballs/line drives went for home runs.
13.1% of LaRoche's flyballs/line drives went for home runs.
11.6% of Zim's flyballs/line drives went for home runs.
10.6% of Harper's flyballs/line drives went for home runs.
9.3% of Espinosa's flyballs/line drives went for home runs.
4.1% of Werth's flyballs/line drives went for home runs.
Just from looking at this (instead of Seamhead's less than complete "statistical" analysis one can see why Mike Rizzo felt safe losing Adam LaRoche or Michael Morse ... perhaps even both. Just by looking at who happens to be at the top of the above list.
Now we look at ISO which is the measure of overall percentage of extra base hits.
LaRoche .250
Moore .250
Desmond .218
Harper .206
Zimmerman .196
Morse .180
Espinosa .155
Werth .140
Span .112
Here again we see some stark differences using advanced statistical analysis. Again, we find Tyler Moore right at the top tied with LaRoche who had a career year. Whereas Moore is the "X-factor", no one knows how high his ceiling goes as a MLB power hitter.
Just from these two tables one can see why Rizzo went with LaRoche and why he decided to trade Morse.
One has to assume Davey KNOWS these stats off the top of his head. And Davey doesn't play Riggleman's "smart ball" he plays Earl Weaver wait for the 3-run homer. That means Span doesn't attempt to steal as often as he did last year. Not with Harper behind him. But add Tyler Moore to the equation? And its just possible Davey just might do that to see what happens more often than Rizzo expects he will. Perhaps a lot more often.
THis Seamhead is how you measure extra base production. NOT with home run totals. Doh.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteDavey is a riot. "I ain't flippin' a coin."
ReplyDelete(see WaPo article on Soriano).
I wasn't comparing extra base production. As I said I could compare stats all day, but I won't.
ReplyDeleteEverybody else have a nice evening.
peric, I'm sure that you can't wait for tomorrow to get here.
Davey is a riot. "I ain't flippin' a coin."
ReplyDeleteKind of interesting how Rizzo just put him in the ninth and Davey said let's see how they look first. Have to wonder how much of Rizzo saying that is to make Boras, his client, and Ted happy at least for now?
Soriano hasn't really worked as a closer ... last year because Mariano was hurt. Atlanta same deal. In Tampa he was the closer but just for a year. Storen has almost closed as many games as Soriano already.
I would be very curious to know what the real mindset of the Rizzo, the FO, ownership and Davey are on some of these "gray area" issues.
Interesting stats peric. And would have been just as interesting without the ad hominem attack on JoeS. Why mar a good and useful comment with venom? I just don't get it.
ReplyDeletejust as interesting without the ad hominem attack on JoeS. Why mar a good and useful comment with venom?
ReplyDeleteJust returning the favor after one of too many ad hominem by seamless joe the other day ... sorry but I am going to continue to excoriate this guy because he's a worthless jerk.
So two wrongs make a right??
ReplyDeleteIn the press conference it almost sounded like Sori signed because Rizzo told him he could close. Once he gets here, Davey will do with him whatever he wishes to do with him.
ReplyDeleteI agree, Swami. Johnson will go with the order in the pen that will win games, but he sure has an impressive arsenal to work with.Chemistry seems to be a worry to some, but if anybody can work with it, it's Davey.
ReplyDeleteThis team is going to win 100 there will be plenty of opportunities for both stores and soriano.
ReplyDeleteThere are going to be 162 ninth innings at least. Some of them will be official save opportunities. Some we will be farther ahead, or behind , or tied. One guy cannot pitch them all. Very rarely will a starter finish a game. Every last inning is important in some way. Suppose you have 3 or 4 close wins in 4 days? I hope this next two years is enough time that Drew is not run into the ground and at the end of that time he is a well seasoned , filthy closer. But if this new guy slips up, Davey won't hesitate to change things. We have seen Drew carve up hitters and we will see it again. They wore Clip down, too. Should be interesting.
ReplyDeleteMy biggest concern for 2013 will the possibility of something the Nationals have never had to deal with thus far: not playing up to expectations.
ReplyDeleteIf this team wins 90 games and comes in second in the NL East, and wins one of the two wild card beths, most of are going to see this season as a letdown.
If they in 95-100 games, we'll say "Big deal, this team should have won 95 games."
Not living up to expectations will be difficult.
Farid @ Idaho
Weird problem. I want to see the Nats contending, respected , in the playoff hunt in September , winning seasons, every year. Stuff happens, people get hurt, other teams get hot or lucky. Good, exciting baseball- all the time. I think times have changed and 2012 was not a fluke.
ReplyDelete