tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post4183220095113235516..comments2024-02-15T05:42:18.307-05:00Comments on Nats Insider: My 2013 Hall of Fame ballotMark Zuckermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13525315258889435961noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-39585281069578057482013-01-10T17:38:17.300-05:002013-01-10T17:38:17.300-05:00Great article! It would be great to see Bagwell a...Great article! It would be great to see Bagwell and Biggio to go in together next year!!!Kylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01798330003474051901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-80413821860395231472013-01-10T10:51:21.939-05:002013-01-10T10:51:21.939-05:00Glad to see Mark voted no on Bonds, Clemens, Sosa ...Glad to see Mark voted no on Bonds, Clemens, Sosa and continues to vote no on McGwire. I personally don't have much respect for arguments of the ESPN types that advocate for them. They cheated, we all know it. What's there to talk about?<br /><br />Couldn't agree more on Biggio, Bagwell, Piazza.<br /><br />And totally agree on Larry Walker!! He was an absolute beast. I need to look at Tim Raines again, currently I'm on the fence. <br /><br />Overall, love Mark's ballot, nearly identical to what mine would be.Avarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15070310253296287000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-32256287617868424112013-01-09T23:56:18.195-05:002013-01-09T23:56:18.195-05:00Dawson goes to Wrigley, makes the Hall. Walker goe...Dawson goes to Wrigley, makes the Hall. Walker goes to Coors, doesn't....yet. Having seen both at the big Owe, there is no doubt in my mind who is being ripped off by the BWAA.DWShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08270249819187041350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-10803334978682708892013-01-09T23:12:30.315-05:002013-01-09T23:12:30.315-05:00and, er, CALLED a good game. (it would be so much...and, er, CALLED a good game. (it would be so much easier if i just did my proofreading BEFORE hitting "publish.) ;)sometimesitrainshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14579106723822945247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-43126417133168487652013-01-09T23:10:18.361-05:002013-01-09T23:10:18.361-05:00er, that should be *EVERY argument i've heard....er, that should be *EVERY argument i've heard...sometimesitrainshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14579106723822945247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-28013374711079008882013-01-09T23:09:29.375-05:002013-01-09T23:09:29.375-05:00Mark -- thanks for sharing your reasoning. i comp...Mark -- thanks for sharing your reasoning. i completely concur wrt Biggio and Raines, and you've just about convinced me on Walker.<br /><br />where we part ways, at least temporarily, is with Piazza -- and it has nothing to do with the PEDs. rather, it's that very argument i've heard for Piazza's inclusion concerns his statistics specifically *as a catcher*. and yet, he was such a liability at that position, notwithstanding your comment that some pitchers felt he pitched a good game. had Piazza been (for example) a first baseman, i don't expect he'd have been a likely candidate to be enshrined.<br /><br />of course, Piazza was not a first baseman, and he in fact played catcher competently enough to allow other strong hitters (e.g., Olerud) to play first base, which unquestionably strengthened the lineup of the teams he played for. (indeed, makes me wonder whether Michael Morse could figure out how to be a minimally competent catcher.)<br /><br />it's possible i'll change my mind with time, and i'm always open to be convinced otherwise. but i feel that unless and until Piazza's offensive stats are reasonably evaluated against his woeful defense, it's hard to support his enshrinement.sometimesitrainshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14579106723822945247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-32883498703470373452013-01-09T20:33:25.647-05:002013-01-09T20:33:25.647-05:00For a different take on the vote (and with an Expo...For a different take on the vote (and with an Expos tie-in), from Grantland.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/47091/the-fallacy-of-the-baseball-hall-of-fame" rel="nofollow">The Fallacy of the Baseball Hall of Fame</a><br />By Jonah Keri Holden Baroquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05941566402992955387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-11493160645000544192013-01-09T19:22:43.361-05:002013-01-09T19:22:43.361-05:00TTS-- really? Pitchers today wimp out after six? G...TTS-- really? Pitchers today wimp out after six? Get real. Strategies have changed. How many pitchers you see that look happy when the manager shows up to take them out? Things are managed differently now. Doesn't mean the pitchers are wimps.baseballswamihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03473384422940931212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-39138263935034494462013-01-09T18:22:24.399-05:002013-01-09T18:22:24.399-05:00I disagree on Raines, Piazza and Morris. Raines I...I disagree on Raines, Piazza and Morris. Raines I'm just not convinced about, maybe because I didn't watch him very much. I don't give him a pass for being a cokehead while he was playing baseball. I.e., as such he was giving his team and teammates less than they were entitled to expect, and that screws the pooch as far as I'm concerned. Besides that, and entirely subjectively, I think Raines is hurt among some HOF voters by the extended streak of mediocrity at the end of his career; it's hard to get that out of your mind.<br /><br />Piazza hit a ton. I don't know what pitchers thought of him. Defensively, he was Edgar Martinez w/ a chest protector, if that. If you're gonna ding Edgar for lack of all-around credentials Piazza is practically in the same boat. (Alan Trammell, who you dissed, played four more years and had twenty more hits. And E. Martinez had 100 more hits in less time. No offense Mark but those rationalizations don't float.) <br /><br />Jack Morris was the "money" pitcher of the '80s. He pitched a gazillion innings and completed a whole bunch of games (which probably had something to do w/ his ERA because he didn't wimp out after six like pitchers are allowed/encouraged to today).Theophilus T. S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16532693473198519382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-62061204721468033122013-01-09T18:08:26.447-05:002013-01-09T18:08:26.447-05:00Don: your lengthy post at 2:32 included lots of f...Don: your lengthy post at 2:32 included lots of food for thought. One comment mentioned Cal Ripken and this is not the first time I have seen this. One of his closest friends - Brady Anderson. Body size - significantly changed over the years. Cal is truly a golden boy and never had any claims against him. I kind of agree with you that nothing has ever been proven but there are certainly suspicions about a bunch of greats. again, it made me think so thanks for thatsjm308https://www.blogger.com/profile/01236550495879254916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-37326487260856785922013-01-09T18:01:06.829-05:002013-01-09T18:01:06.829-05:00See Feel, support for my thoughts are growing!!
...See Feel, support for my thoughts are growing!! <br /> Thanks for that quote.<br /><br />There are lots of great memories from last year but one of my finest is how much these guys honestly seemed to enjoy each other. Just one of Davey's bullet points when he sits down with Morse to convince him to help us on our march to the World Series.<br /><br /> sjm308https://www.blogger.com/profile/01236550495879254916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-34501917103684392482013-01-09T17:58:42.248-05:002013-01-09T17:58:42.248-05:00A couple of things:
As someone else pointed out, ...A couple of things:<br /><br />As someone else pointed out, I find the cherry-picking of stats unpersuasive. Reminds me of those car commercials that say, "better gas mileage than Toyota Camry, more trunk space than Honda Accord or BMW 535, more horsepower than Nissan Altima." Leaves out the fact that the car they're touting doesn't win EVERY category going head-to-head against any car - better mileage than the Camry, okay, but why don't you tell us how it does against Honda and Nissan?<br /><br />Taken to its extremes, you could say, "Hit more home runs than Whitey Ford, played better outfield than Ted Williams, got caught stealing less than Yogi Berra. All may be true, but those aren't the reasons those guys are in the HoF. Bill James pointed all this out in his famous Ken Keltner essay.<br /><br />Point 2: It seems, from what you've written, that a player's character and integrity - or lack thereof - can only hurt his chances. Bonds and Clemens are out because they were dishonest and they were jerks. But - and maybe I missed it - I don't see anything saying you voted FOR a guy because he was a great clubhouse presence and was a Cal Ripken-like exemplar of the game - always there for fan autographs, never ripping ownership, management, fellow players, Bud Selig, or MASN. Is that a fair assessment - that character and integrity are factors that can only hurt your chances?Candidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02384645593063095481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-9365883450466352392013-01-09T17:55:50.974-05:002013-01-09T17:55:50.974-05:00Looks like Adam LaRoche himself is as seriously ou...Looks like Adam LaRoche himself is as seriously out of touch with reality as sjm308.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/01/adam-laroche-sought-no-trade-clause.html" rel="nofollow"> "Regardless of external factors that may have hurt his market, LaRoche says that he's glad to be back in D.C on a two-year deal with a mutual option for 2015. However, his return means that Mike Morse won't be starting at first and he doesn't figure to have another place to start with the three outfield positions also filled. LaRoche knows that Morse could potentially be moved for impact pieces, giving him a chance to thrive elsewhere, but he "selfishly" hopes that Morse remains in Washington."</a><br /><br />The Real Feel Wood. Accept no substitutes.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13147290573966561009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-44388764365903250072013-01-09T17:32:31.305-05:002013-01-09T17:32:31.305-05:00This made for entertaining reading and I don't...This made for entertaining reading and I don't know that I had seen a complete ballot before this. I have discussed my rationale before and also enjoyed reading Don's thoughts which were well thought out.<br /><br />My ballot would have included <br />Bagwell-Bonds-Clemens-McGwire-Morris & Piazza (not that anyone cares)<br /><br />Was discussing LaRoche and other things "national" with a friend over lunch, especially what Morse's fate will be. I like pretty much all of our lads and thought Bernadina found a great role for himself last year. My new question is: who will he honestly replace in the late innings for defensive reason? Wouldn't it make more sense to keep Morse than Bernadina. Obviously I am still not giving up my fight.<br /><br />Thanks again Mark for your detailed ballot.<br /><br />Go Nats!!<br /><br />sjm308https://www.blogger.com/profile/01236550495879254916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-43764318214569803592013-01-09T17:28:05.734-05:002013-01-09T17:28:05.734-05:00Faraz,
I have no doubt that Clemens and Bonds wo...<br /> Faraz,<br /><br /> I have no doubt that Clemens and Bonds would have been 1st ballot hall of famers if they had never touched the PEDs. They were both greedy and wanted to surpass anything ever accomplished as well as extend their ability to get multi million dollar contracts.<br /><br /> To me there is a price to pay for cheating and Baseball writers have every right to administer the punishment. I don't agree with writers taking leaps of faith in trying to deduce who cheated and who didn't and I also don't agree with the assertion that everyone must have cheated.<br /><br /> I think it would be beneficial to everyone but the cheaters if the 'sealed' list became public especially since so much of it has leaked out in any event.JDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10464376699196421043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-458764255249650722013-01-09T17:26:50.397-05:002013-01-09T17:26:50.397-05:00I like that Mark is a homer and championing two fo...I like that Mark is a homer and championing two former Expos (Raines and Walker).Water23https://www.blogger.com/profile/01507380995443693539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-8714580016773846642013-01-09T17:24:16.185-05:002013-01-09T17:24:16.185-05:00Soriano is a FA.Soriano is a FA.Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08533703303439123333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-87601461545106960132013-01-09T17:04:36.713-05:002013-01-09T17:04:36.713-05:00i'd vote for mark.
thanksi'd vote for mark. <br />thanks<br /><br />waddu eye nohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03901442022655205900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-18797659752910404922013-01-09T17:03:28.928-05:002013-01-09T17:03:28.928-05:00Not having to do with the Hall, but back to trades...Not having to do with the Hall, but back to trades involving Morse. How about trading him to the Yankees for Rafael Soriano? The Yankees don't seem to want him back, but it doesn't seem like anyone wants to sign him and give up the first round pick.<br /><br />This would require the Nats to reach a deal with Soriano. It also likely would require approval of MLB, since the Yankees would have to sign Soriano and then trade him to the Nats,and I don't know if that works under the collective bargaining agreement. I think Boras is Soriano's agent, FWIW. Ishmaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06074673386807016869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-7597578554164188012013-01-09T16:31:41.089-05:002013-01-09T16:31:41.089-05:00I agree about 95% with this ballot. And I am espec...I agree about 95% with this ballot. And I am especially happy that Raines received a YES from Mark. Very cool.Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02623009442776550453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-13683439862694331052013-01-09T15:58:50.406-05:002013-01-09T15:58:50.406-05:00JayB -- I hate me some Roger Clemens. There is no...JayB -- I hate me some Roger Clemens. There is no athlete alive that I can say I dislike more than that guy. But I would vote him in.<br /><br />Zuck -- on Bagwell, you vote for him saying it would not be fair to not do so on the steroid whispers unless evidence was presented -- how much evidence does it take? That is where it gets hard to apply the bright line test.<br /><br />After poiting out some pics of a skinny kid Bagwell as a 1991 prospect and a mid-career Bagwell looking like the fullback for the Bears and noting Bagwell played with dozens of PED implicated guys and that if he never used he also never spoke out about roids being a problem in the game when he was actually playing, Jeff Pearlman's take on Bagwell is as follows: <br /><br />"Statistically, Jeff Bagwell is a Hall of Famer. And, on a personal note, he was always an approachable and nice guy. But, dammit, thanks to baseball’s meekness (for lack of a better word), Hall of Fame voters (I’m not one, for the record) have the right to suspect anyone and everyone from the past era. They have the right to view muscles suspiciously; to question a guy putting up six-straight 100-plus RBI seasons in the heat of PED Madness; to wonder why—when, oh, 75 percent of players were using–one extremely succesful, extemely large, extremely muscular man wouldn’t."Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08533703303439123333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-39395757635776260382013-01-09T15:57:17.194-05:002013-01-09T15:57:17.194-05:00Appreciate reading your detailed reasoning, Mark, ...Appreciate reading your detailed reasoning, Mark, although the cherry-picking of stats to form favorable comparisons with legends like Aaron, Mays, Frank Robinson and Clemente (all of whom I saw play) does not persuade me that Larry Walker belongs in their company.<br /><br />Only Biggio would have gotten my vote this time around. Some of the others are probably deserving in future years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-21357244247008311162013-01-09T15:54:10.273-05:002013-01-09T15:54:10.273-05:00Don-
I don't know, because I wasn't in th...Don-<br /><br />I don't know, because I wasn't in the clubhouse. I do agree with your basic point that it apparently wasn't condemned strongly and forcefully by MLB, the clubs or the media. I just disagree with your statement that there was NO negative moral stigma. I think there was, and the constant effort to keep usage under wraps proves it.<br /><br />If I had a ballot it would look exactly like Mark's, plus Bonds and Clemens. But I think it's acceptable to disagree there. The character and integrity language leaves room for these kind of subjective considerations, so long as you provide reasonable support for your position. On the other handm, eliminating someone like Bagwell because of his physique or Piazza because of bacne is inexcusable in my book.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-23833381633294062072013-01-09T15:51:30.617-05:002013-01-09T15:51:30.617-05:00Questions - are there always the same amount of na...Questions - are there always the same amount of names on the ballot? If there are lots of good players, doesn't that dilute the percentage each one gets? Do you have a certain number you can vote for or could you vote for them all? I think this result is interesting for sure, but I am kind of sick of the debate at this point. The writers that vote know a lot about the game, there is a character clause, they each make their own decision and vote and then that's it. Weird year. baseballswamihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03473384422940931212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3442809928829881676.post-89027363167252238672013-01-09T15:50:57.767-05:002013-01-09T15:50:57.767-05:00Of course when Dexter did it he got caught and end...Of course when Dexter did it he got caught and ended up permanently expelled from professional football.<br /><br />Mark, not sure your reasoning applies with Raines given the history of sports in this town as opposed to Montreal. Then there is winning versus losing. That didn't happen for Raines until he left Montreal and ended up with the evil empire, the Yankees. And that was at the end of his career.perichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02669200119049715758noreply@blogger.com